This Week in Tech Episode 888 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for TWiT this weekend tech and Ooh, I love this panel on doc. Rock is here from E cam live and of course, rock Denise Hal, former host of this weekend law. Also here, she's got a big announcement. If you were a fan of the show, you'll want to hear that. And Brian McCullough from the tech meme ride home. We're gonna talk about privacy. The FTC e-sports Excel in eSport. I, I think it is TikTok and the fall of social media plus Elon Musk. Why is he selling all of that stock in Tesla? It's all coming up next on TWiTtter podcasts. You love

TWiT Intro (00:00:40):
From people you trust. This is is TWiT.

Leo Laporte (00:00:52):
This is TWiT. This weekend tech episode 888 recorded Sunday, August 14th, 2022 frolic and detour this week at tech is brought to you this week by it pro TV. Give your team an engaging it development platform to level up their skills. Volume discounts. Start at five seats, go to it. Pro.Tv/TWiT, and make sure to mention TWiT 30 to your it pro TV account executive to get 30% off or more on a business plan. And by mint mobile mint mobile's secret sauce is they're the first company to sell wireless service online only to get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door for free. Go to mint, and by worldwide technology and HPE with an innovative culture, thousands of it, engineers and application developers, unmatched labs and integration centers for testing and deploying technology. At scale WWT helps customers bridge the gap between strategy and execution. To learn more about WWT, visit, and by click up the productivity platform, that'll save you one day a week on work guaranteed. Use the code TWiTt to get 15% off click ups, massive on unlimited plan for a year. Meaning you can start reclaiming your time for under $5 a month. Sign up, but hurry, this offer ends soon.

Leo Laporte (00:02:33):
It's time for to this weekend tech to show we cover the week's tech news. We have assembled an esteemed distinguished panel of technology experts to facilitate this conversation this week, starting with Denise Howell, former host of this week in law, Denise She is a practicing professional attorney. Hello, Denise.

TWiT Intro (00:02:55):
Hello, Leo. Great to be

Leo Laporte (00:02:56):
Here. Always a pleasure. It's great to have you on here. And I'm glad you have a candle, which you can light for us. 

Denise Howell (00:03:02):
A little I can, yes, a little later if we, if we need to.

Leo Laporte (00:03:05):
I think it's dark <laugh> yes. You'll be our candle in

Denise Howell (00:03:08):
The dark. Oh, they've had my power out TWiTce in the last two weeks. So you're not, you're not far off.

Leo Laporte (00:03:13):
Aye. Yeah. Yeah. It's you really realize how much we depend on power when you lose it, like everything.

Denise Howell (00:03:21):
Oh. And they went ahead and broke the fiber optic that was providing internet to the house at the same time.

Leo Laporte (00:03:27):
So, oh, that's awesome. Also with us from the great state of Hawaii where it is still yesterday, doc. No, it's not doc rock

Doc Rock (00:03:39):
Just threw me off. Oh my God. Aha. Hello, ha you too. Hey,

Leo Laporte (00:03:45):
Slash doc rock. He's also at E cam ambassador and he is according to the sign behind his head on the air. Welcome.

Doc Rock (00:03:53):
Yes. Thank you. Thank to see you so much.

Leo Laporte (00:03:55):
I like the purpleness of, of the grotto with dark,

Doc Rock (00:03:58):
The dark rock. You know, I started this as an homage for Alzheimer's awareness.

Leo Laporte (00:04:04):
Oh yeah. That's the color for Alzheimer's awareness.

Doc Rock (00:04:06):
Karen's mom has Karen's dad. Sorry has it. And my mom, we, then they got it about it the same time. So I've just been on a mission. Can we do something about this thing? Good. You know, I'm with you. So that's that started it and I like it.

Leo Laporte (00:04:20):
And I'm getting to the age where if I start forgetting your name, then you'll know I'm I'm next. So let's

Doc Rock (00:04:25):
Where I'm feeling it. Every time I walk in a room and like, why am I in here? I'm like, well, God, no, me too.

Leo Laporte (00:04:31):
You know why that is? By the way, when you go through a door, that's a context shift. Yes. Right? Denise back me up on this.

Denise Howell (00:04:38):
Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:04:40):
And for some

Doc Rock (00:04:40):
Reason it's the door in severance. And I just go the elevator like

Leo Laporte (00:04:44):
That. It's like the elevator in severance. No, for some reason, when you shift a context like that, your brain is designed to like SCR to dump the old Ram and start fresh. So everything you thought about before you went through that door gone, it's not made up.

Doc Rock (00:04:59):
I believe this on there's onboard memory thing was a thing. I gotta talk to Tim about

Leo Laporte (00:05:03):
That. It's not made up. Right? Denise hell backs me up also here for the tech me ride home podcast, internet historian, Brian McCullough. Good to see you.

Brian McCullough (00:05:14):
Good to see you. Leo. I've got something that, that you should buy. It's not it wasn't prime day, but see if you can recognize who this is. Hold

Leo Laporte (00:05:22):
On that head with a red nose.

Brian McCullough (00:05:24):
Well, it's got a bandaid on because it my dog bit the nose up.

Leo Laporte (00:05:30):
Who is that?

Brian McCullough (00:05:31):
I don't. It is wait, wait.

Leo Laporte (00:05:33):
Don't mark Zuckerberg. Oh, Z Zuckerberg.

Brian McCullough (00:05:35):
Now. Here's here's what I

Leo Laporte (00:05:36):
Mean? No. Wonder your dog bit. His nose. Well,

Brian McCullough (00:05:40):
This is legitimately what he's been used for you ready? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:05:43):
He's got a mark Zuckerberg head

Brian McCullough (00:05:46):
Where you put your headphones when you're done with a show mark Z throw 'em on a, a

Leo Laporte (00:05:50):
Desk. Yeah. Where'd you get that and how much

Brian McCullough (00:05:53):
It's on Etsy. It was 50 bucks. It's a 3d printed Zuckerberg head. And since he loves all things, Roman emperors and stuff, I, I figured that the nose kind of works. It does like

Leo Laporte (00:06:06):
It's you should just chop it right off. Yeah, that is great.

Brian McCullough (00:06:10):
Wow. Hope you should get that. I think you should get that for the studio, because remember, was it Conan who always used to have the pencil cup that was Eisenhower or something?

Leo Laporte (00:06:20):
<Laugh> now, by the way, there are other, I don't have to copy you. I could get honored. They have an honored head for holding your headphones. Take your, take your, get your ass to Mars. Yeah, that's good. I might

Denise Howell (00:06:36):
Actually represented Arnold in a case where he was suing about an auto dealership misusing his likeness. And this is a similar kind of situation,

Leo Laporte (00:06:50):
Counselor. Please do not contact angled to designers. Here's Jack Nicholson is the joker. Oh, that is brilliant. Sure, buddy, put those headphones on me. I think it's this. This is a real discovery here. Angled designers on on Etsy. They have a home Lander. Steve Corll Godzilla, mark ham. You want mark Hamel?

Brian McCullough (00:07:13):
Well, my whole office is star wars. Everything.

Leo Laporte (00:07:15):
<Laugh> wouldn. Be funny if the headphones are on, I think you need to get this. Why is Arnold $4 more? <Laugh>

Brian McCullough (00:07:23):
Yeah. I was wondering about the price differences

Leo Laporte (00:07:25):
<Laugh> for some reason and, and, and gubernatorial fees, maybe, cuz he's so big, it uses more PLA fiber. It's very expensive to print it. The, the MOS that's I, I can't decide. That's really what's but here

Denise Howell (00:07:41):
That's creepy. It it's very realistic.

Leo Laporte (00:07:43):
It is. It's good to know that 3,656 people in the world have Arnold shortening shirt and NIS head on, on a shelf. All right. Well we've started the show in a unique fashion. <Laugh> thanks to you, Brian. I love that. It would've. It was only a matter of time before I asked is that mark Zuckerberg's head on your shelf. So it's

Brian McCullough (00:08:05):
A good thing. Well, he'll be watching over us the whole

Leo Laporte (00:08:07):
Ion. I'm a little mad at mark and I don't know, maybe maybe this is, it's not reasonable to be mad at mark for this. It's just something leaves a bad taste in my mouth, the teenager and her mom in Nebraska, 17 year old girl and her mom were chatting on Facebook messenger. They thought privately about her medicine induced abortion. The abortion was at 28 weeks, which is illegal in Nebraska, Nebraska somehow must have found out about it. The police sent a subpoena, a warrant to I don't know what the difference is. One of those to I think a warrant to Facebook and they provided the not so private chats, which were, are then were then used to gather more evidence and arrest the 17 year old who's being tried as an adult. Her mother is also being tried as is a, a man who is charged with attempting to conceal the death of another person. The fetus, this, this to me is exactly in a nutshell why privacy is so important. You can't Denise, can you fault Facebook? Don't they have to give the police that information, given a valid one. They

Denise Howell (00:09:22):
Do. Here's what they don't have to do. They don't have to have the data. They could delete it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> they don't have to keep chat. Lots

Leo Laporte (00:09:29):
Good point.

Denise Howell (00:09:30):
Yeah. So if you wanna get mad at mark for something, get mad about him for that because well, and then they have to respond to search warrants with information they actually have. Yeah. If they don't have it, they don't have anything to give over.

Leo Laporte (00:09:45):
This is why encryption end to end encryption is so important cuz then the company mm-hmm <affirmative> can't hand it over. And in fact, weirdly the right about the same time meta expanded Messenger's end-to-end encryption, they say it is unrelated to the Nebraska abortion case. You can have PRI end-to-end encrypted conversations as I remember on messenger, but you have to, you have to turn it on. So and you remember that famous post from mark Zuckerberg three years ago saying, you know, we're gonna, everything's gonna be end to end encrypted eventually. They have faced according to wired technical and political challenges that have delayed that, but they're driving according to wired again, they're driving toward quote, a global rollout of default end to end encryption for personal messages and calls next year government doesn't like this government calls it going dark. They think the bad guys are gonna use this

Denise Howell (00:10:45):
Government likes search warrants. Yeah, for sure.

Leo Laporte (00:10:49):
Yeah. We know that. So you know, this, this, this is painful on, on a number of levels. I, I feel for the 17 year old who didn't wanna have a baby she and her mom had conversations. She thought was private mark thought all otherwise. But at, in every step of the way, this is all legal.

Denise Howell (00:11:16):
Yeah, for sure. And, and, and a good cautionary tale in the wake of recent Supreme court developments to know that this is how things are gonna go. This, this case would've been prosecuted before dos, because it was late, she

Leo Laporte (00:11:34):
Was late, late, late term report was

Denise Howell (00:11:35):
Late. Yeah. Yeah. but you know, this is, this is how this is gonna go. People are gonna be asked for search histories. People are gonna be asked for communications. 

Leo Laporte (00:11:48):
And we know that the data smog that you leave behind you can be used in all sorts of ways. I remember a story from years ago was it target? Some store knew that a shopper was pregnant before a family did, based on her purchases of the store. So they started sending her solicitations for, you know, diapers and things. And she was like upset because she hadn't told anybody she was pregnant. And this is the case. Your data can say things. And if suddenly you're not pregnant after being pregnant, this data can get you in a lot of trouble in about 23 states in the United States. Yeah. So what should we do? I mean, we talked about period tracking apps, turn those off. Yes.

Denise Howell (00:12:36):
But definitely. And you know, I, I think it's just a good idea. I, I know it's a lot to think about people using signal in their daily lives, but you know, it's a shame if you're,

Leo Laporte (00:12:49):
Because then you're acting as if, you know, I'm a, I'm a secret agent and I have to do everything encrypted, plus you have to get everybody to do it. And I even think that that could be a red flag for law enforcement. Well, that's interesting. Leo seems to be using encrypted messaging exclusively. I wonder what he's up to.

Denise Howell (00:13:07):
Yeah. But you use HTTPS too in your browsers, you know? I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:13:12):
That's why, that's why Facebook and everybody else should just turn it on. Then nobody looks guilty because they're using it. It's just the default everybody's using it. You don't have to choose signal,

Denise Howell (00:13:23):

Leo Laporte (00:13:23):
Yeah. Well, let's, they move along.

Brian McCullough (00:13:26):
The other reason that they wanna do that is because exactly what we're talking about, then the next time something like this happens, they're kind of off the hook because there's nothing they can do. The problem would be right to play. Devil's advocate is the next time there's a terrorist attack or something that everyone can see was planned on telegram or something like that. And there's no way to, to track people down. Then the government gets even more mad. And, and once

Leo Laporte (00:13:52):
The only thing I would, I would say to that is there have always been, and probably always will be a way for people to communicate privately. Even if it involves going out in a field and whispering in each other's ear, people are gonna be able to communicate privately. You cannot eliminate all means of communicating privately. And the law protects to some degree, your privacy and things like, well, I, is there any actually, it's a good one for our attorney. Is there any, I mean, you can get a wi log, always get a wire tap, right. Is there they can open mail, right? There are laws against opening mail, but if they have a warrant, they can open mail. Is there,

Denise Howell (00:14:30):
And particularly under the Patriot act and all the legislation that came out after nine 11. Yeah. You can, if there is probable cause for a crime that's being investigated and they think that data may exist in a place, they can compel it to be turned over under a court order. So it's so the, we get back to, do you have the

Leo Laporte (00:14:54):
Data, right? I'll make the argument that Phil Zimmerman made. When I interviewed him, he was the creator of PGP. And he, he said law enforcement is not going dark. Law enforcement has unprecedented access to data more than they've ever had before. People are using digital devices to communicate and law enforcement can see into most of those. So it isn't the fact that, oh my God, we, we can, we can't do our job anymore. It's he? He said, and I think he's accurate. It's more of a case. They've got a amazing view into everything that's going on. And there are few little spots where they can't see and that bugs them, that there's some dead pixels. They're not going dark. They have more than they've ever had before. Does that seem accurate? A hundred

Doc Rock (00:15:41):
Percent. Yeah. That's exactly what I, I think that it is the, the full they want full control and they also want full autonomy. And it's funny how it works until it gets flipped back on them because of something that they did wrong.

Leo Laporte (00:15:58):
Oh yeah. Isn't that interesting?

Doc Rock (00:15:59):
Yeah. Then it's like, oh, the camera was off <laugh> or this is secret. And if we tell you how he did it, then, you know, so that's the catch 22 and you're right. They definitely have more access. They have the best tools in the world. Now. if you look on LinkedIn and you are a forensic data specialist, you will find jobs in law enforcement agencies, all around the country looking to hire people that are even better at it. So yeah, they're, they're kind of full of, they want the best both worlds. They also just like in a, in an interrogation, they know all they need to know, but they want you to tell them because then that ironclads the case, which is the reason why they end up screwing it up because they keep pushing for a confession and then they do something dumb and get the person off, cuz they just want to get their work done for them.

Leo Laporte (00:16:49):
This is a little off topic. And by the way, we have a lot of law enforcement people listen to our shows. I met them, I've talked to them and I have huge respect for them. I

Doc Rock (00:16:56):
Know it's my, brother-in-law's a cop. So I, I mean, it's definitely not an anti law enforcement thing. No, I think it's more of, like you said, if, if I can get everybody to do to do all the work for me, that just makes my job easier. I don't, I don't blame anybody for wanting that, but you just gotta understand what

Leo Laporte (00:17:14):
You're asking for. Yeah. And, and, and look, the constitution has two amendments, the fourth and the fifth decide designed really to protect our privacy, to protect us against unlawful search and seizure and overreaching law enforcement. So this is something that's been recognized for 200 plus years in this country. And and we are in theory protected. I, I don't want to go down this. There's a wonderful book. Jeff Jarvis recommended Eli Misal, who is a commentator on MSNBC. He's a Harvard law graduate. A brilliant guy, wrote a book allow me to retort the black man's guy to the constitution. And in it, he makes it, I think, a strong case that look, we got the fifth amendment you're right to, you know, not incriminate yourself. You know people plead the fifth and yet we allow, you know, in coerced confessions all the time. And, and really, he says, you should not allow confessions in the trial that just shouldn't be allowed. The fifth specifically says you overnight not to incriminate yourself. And I mean, I don't want, that's a longer conversation and I'm sure Denise you've, you've probably thought about this a little bit. I think Eely makes a very, or ally makes a very good case for it. He's against confessions <laugh> he says, forget the, you know, Miranda rights police should not be allowed to a, to ask for confessions. You just, you shouldn't,

Denise Howell (00:18:43):
I don't know. I mean, if you're sitting there being interviewed and you're, lawyer's there and you have a good lawyer and you decide to confess I'm okay with that confession being used.

Leo Laporte (00:18:52):
It's just, it's just so often misused. Yeah. you're right. Under perfect circumstances, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you could, you should be allowed to plead guilty. Right? I did it, your honor. I did it. Anything, anything more than that though? Gets you in a lot of trouble because there's a lot coerced confessions going on. Yeah. They lie to you they'll, you know, and there's all sorts of things. So as any lawyer and any police officer will tell you don't talk to the police ever. Just don't talk. It's just, it's not in your interest. They're not, they're not looking to help you. <Laugh> they're looking to convict you. Speaking of privacy Le Kahn, we've been waiting for the other shoe to drop she's the new chairman of the FTC federal trade commission. And they have now kicked off their massive push to regulate the data economy.

Leo Laporte (00:19:40):
They've asked for a request for comments. They launched a notice on on Thursday this week, a potential rule making. And they're looking for comments on a long list of questions having to do with privacy and, and data protection. Chairman Conn said in this in a statement, the growing digitization of our economy, that's what we've just been talking about, right? Coupled with business models that can incentivize endless hoovering up of sensitive user data and a vast expansion of how that data is used means that potentially unlawful practices may be prevalent. They're trying to decide whether they should regulate in these areas. There, there it's a 44 page notice with literally dozens of questions about digital ads, security of consumer information, biometrics, psychological harms, corporate structure, the protection of kids and teens, algorithmic discrimination. 

Denise Howell (00:20:41):
I haven't looked at all 44 questions, but I hope they have something in there about the perceived privacy of, of digital communications tools.

Leo Laporte (00:20:49):
Yeah. yeah. Well, that's right. What we were talking about, isn't it? Yeah. <laugh>

Denise Howell (00:20:54):

Brian McCullough (00:20:56):
If it's the FTC, then it wouldn't this be more about like the commercial surveillance stuff than yes. Government surveillance stuff. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:21:04):
Yeah, yeah.

Denise Howell (00:21:06):
All those. So we were right before the show was starting. We were talking about Amazon prime day and whether Leo was gonna get a rice cooker at the appropriate price <laugh> and the the thing I was thinking about at that time is there are these tools out there, I'll use the word tools to be generous and kind about what they are. They are apps that run that help you price compare things. So if you want a particular rice cooker you can plug it in

Leo Laporte (00:21:38):
Camel, camel, camel,

Denise Howell (00:21:39):
They will scour the web. Yeah. And they will, and they will tell you when it's hit that price threshold that you've set or when it's gone on sale or however, they all work differently. But you know, I haven't delved too deeply into the data that these things are gathering and how they're using it. But everyone is voluntarily forking over a lot of data here, not so much critical data about, you know, am I going to have an illegal abortion or do something else illegal, but still, I don't think the people using these apps are thinking about the privacy ramifications of them.

Leo Laporte (00:22:16):
There is there, by the way, I have this conversation with Lisa cuz she uses honey mm-hmm <affirmative> and every time I say, oh, don't use honey. She shows me the check <laugh> that she gets in the mail from honey from RCO 10. She says, no, no RCO 10. Yeah. But they get, but this is the difference. She's getting recompensed for the privacy violation. She knows she's giving them this information and she's getting a check in the mail. It, it's not exactly an explicit trade, but she understands. And I think most people understand. Yeah. That's why they're sending me money. That's why I'm getting coupons. They're doing something with the information I give them. And I'm willing to do that for the, the check check.

Denise Howell (00:22:58):
Well, I'm happy to have the FTC look into things like that and decide that everyone is on the same page about them. Maybe

Leo Laporte (00:23:04):
Just, it would be simple enough to say more disclosure like, okay. Yeah, you'd be very clear what you're gonna do with this data. Who's gonna get it. Don't just put it in some privacy statement in, you know, in the fine print, tell people right up front, Hey, we're gonna send you $17 and 53 cents every four weeks in return. You're gonna send us every bit of information about everything you do on the internet because honey and honey is a plugin. That's sits in your browser. And I guarantee you sees every site you're going to right. It's not just about the shopping. Yes. Yeah. Right.

Brian McCullough (00:23:31):
This, this is also the important point too though, is to set up guardrail. You're you're everything we've talked about is what exists right now. But if, if we can set up guardrails, then when everybody is in connected cars and self-driving cars and your car, you know, I think who is it? IEE spectrum has been doing a series all this week about the data that Tesla already collects.

Leo Laporte (00:23:52):
Oh man, do they collect data? Yeah.

Brian McCullough (00:23:55):
And so, you know what the idea is is this isn't fixing stuff after the, you know, the horses have already left the barn. This is okay. Learning from not setting guardrails 20 years ago and setting guardrails to fix what already exists. But also to before, before a company can even form to exploit a certain thing, be like, well, you can't do that because it's against the rules.

Leo Laporte (00:24:18):
Yeah. We, but getting

Doc Rock (00:24:21):
In front of it,

Leo Laporte (00:24:22):
We're, I mean, we worship capitalism, and this is isn't this exactly what capitalism is all about is using these technologies to be more successful as a company. I mean that's

Denise Howell (00:24:34):
A hundred percent, there were people out there who bought the people's PC and were happy to have it. Do you remember that thing?

Leo Laporte (00:24:39):
Oh yeah.

Denise Howell (00:24:41):
Yeah. And, and I am all for their ability to buy the people PC or whatever it's modern day equivalent is. And B you know, the, the data Canary in a coal mine, I guess giving over your, your activities and being subjective to ads. But it's got, but it's got, there has to be real, a real decision to do that. There has to be Lisa deciding. Yeah. I want my check

Leo Laporte (00:25:08):
People PC online, unlimited data access. This was from EarthLink, unlimited internet access for free, for free or okay. $5 a month five times faster with a free accelerator. <Laugh> you can't get anymore,

Doc Rock (00:25:24):
By the way, this comes up. Every time I have a conversation with someone and trying to explain to them that no, you're let's call her Angela, Angela and Serena are not listening to you. They're like, no, but they are, because every time I do this and then something I'm like, do you just, have you ever had like a Olympus are rolling? The little recorder? Like from college, we used to try to take notes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Imagine doing that for, I don't know, 8 billion people and processing

Leo Laporte (00:25:53):
That you can't listen to all that,

Doc Rock (00:25:54):
You know, speech to text and I'm like, no, you are giving this info up every single day. And my friend's like, no, no. I'm like, do you have honey or rock stalled in your browser? And I'm like, yeah. I'm like, you're giving all the answers everywhere you search just for those two things. So, and I use Rakuten cuz I like to check too, but I also have Ghostery to block the stuff that I know that's bad.

Leo Laporte (00:26:16):
Mm-Hmm <affirmative>, you're just a free writer on Rakuten. That's what you are my friend

Doc Rock (00:26:21):
Don't don't tell anybody <laugh> and, and I wish they would stop. You know, this is my only pet pee with Rakuten. It's Raku 10 RKU 10 started out as a, but they in the us Rakuten completely changed it to Rakuten. Yeah. Cause they like, it'll be easier for Americans to understand. So we're not dumb if you can use the right

Leo Laporte (00:26:40):
Answer. Yeah. That may be what they say, but what they really want is it's not foreign. They, we don't want Americans think it's,

Doc Rock (00:26:46):
You know, I didn't think about that. That's why they adjusted. Yeah. Yeah. It's America. It makes sense. It's market. It completely

Leo Laporte (00:26:51):
Makes sense by the way. Okay. So I was looking at a rice cooker busted. What are the chances that Amazon is now recommending rice cookers to me? Should we check percent? <Laugh> should we just, should we just, oh look. Oh, thanks. Rice. Cookers galore.

Doc Rock (00:27:11):
Look, they even showed you some, all Mogie over there, which is actually good stuff. It's the, the green,

Leo Laporte (00:27:17):
Oh yeah. We buy a lot of this stuff. This is the, the ma green tea with brown roasted brown rice.

Brian McCullough (00:27:23):
Well, and the guy guide to competitive programming was up there at the top too. What?

Leo Laporte (00:27:26):
Well that was something I was looking at. <Laugh> how did you, you picked right up on that. Did you? Yeah. competitive

Denise Howell (00:27:35):
Product. The funny thing is, are they gonna assume your Japanese and start pitching you a bunch of stereotypically Japanese products at this point?

Leo Laporte (00:27:43):
I think one reason

Doc Rock (00:27:44):
I get it all the time and I think it's because when you check my browser, it has, or if they can all the way and I, I don't even bother to check if they can see all the way down to the OS. I have Japanese installed because I write in Japanese often stop doing that with your hands stock. And yeah, I you're right. Cuz I definitely get recommended things that I'm like, they don't send this to anybody else, but I definitely get like, you know, meso products and things like

Leo Laporte (00:28:08):
That they know presented to. Although I think that really these recommendation engines are so crappy is part of the reason people don't like the, the, the ad tracking is if they were good, it wouldn't be so bad, but you're recommending stuff you just bought. They're recommending things you would never want. There's there's so bad. So here's what explore more items. This is just a random collection of weird stuff. <Laugh>

Brian McCullough (00:28:34):
You? You have the same because I bought a Jack like three months ago. And so you have the exact same stuff on like, cuz I got those solar panels all the time. I have every battery thing you can. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:28:45):
I I've never, never, ever purchased solar panels,

Brian McCullough (00:28:47):
But that's that's the point is that. So I spent $1,500 on a whole unit, like you know, solar panels, this battery thing or whatever. I don't need another one necessarily. Yeah. You just, they have not stopped. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:29:00):
You need it as badly as I need the Trump O king stainless vertical skewer Barbro grill stand great for tacos Al pastor shawarma, Brazilian ESCO, whole chicken Kebas and many other delicious dishes that require skewers.

Denise Howell (00:29:13):
Hey, I'm coming over. If you buy that thing,

Leo Laporte (00:29:15):
<Laugh> with ice. You don't think I'm bacon shawarma.

Doc Rock (00:29:21):
This is the part that's creepy that freaks people out. People don't understand this. And it's, it's changed a little bit cuz we haven't been as mobile as before. But if you frequent the same four or five people all the time, cuz you guys just hang out bridge night, poker, whatever. And one of you, one of the people in your group starts searching for stuff. The recommendation engines would assume that all of you guys might because I had buddies looking at Disneyland trips and I would get the Disney ads on my YouTube stuff. Yeah. That makes sense. And the funny one they'll send me Disney. I will the ads and I'm like, bro, I live here. I can just drive. People have to see, you gotta see me. I wanna see snitch. I'll walk over there. It's it's really because other people look and send it to you.

Leo Laporte (00:30:01):
It's just really how pathetic the whole recommendation thing is. It just doesn't work well. Yeah. And so, you know, I think a lot of times, and there's another story related to this, but a lot of times tech companies blame us for, oh you, you know, you're doing ad blockers or using Ghostery or you know, they blame us for their crappy technology. The recommendation engines, even if you use Rakuten and honey and you give 'em all the information, they still get it. I just bought a rice cooker. They're <laugh> they wanna sell me more like how many rice cookers does one family need. And just so you know, the guide to competitive programming, Brian <laugh>

Brian McCullough (00:30:40):

Leo Laporte (00:30:41):
There is such a thing as competitive programming, perhaps you're not familiar with it, but it's a lot of fun competitions for how fast you can solve programming problems. And are

Brian McCullough (00:30:51):
You aware yes. That the Excel championships yes. Were on ESPN,

Leo Laporte (00:30:57):
ESPN two at Ocho. They were on the Ocho. <Laugh>

Doc Rock (00:31:03):
You know, Leo, you just showed me something funny cuz I of course in my live stream process, people ask me gear recommendations. So I'm always going to Amazon to show them which one I wish they had a way to close that picked up where you left off or keep shopping for. Because recently I was doing the stream and I'm about to go in this 42 day road trip. So naturally that required buying some skis. And when

Leo Laporte (00:31:25):
I went to oh, underwear everywhere,

Doc Rock (00:31:27):
It's like yo champion, like Sixl draws, you fed back <laugh> I'm like, thanks. Thanks for putting me on blast election. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:31:35):
Telling you, that's why people hate this stuff. If they were better at it. I think people wouldn't mind so much, but they're not, they're not good at it. I do a every year at the end of the year in December, there's something called the advent of code. It's an advent of calendar of coding problems and I do it every year and I always get stuck before the end. And so I'm hoping if I read a few books, I'll be ready for competitive programming. That's what, and

Denise Howell (00:32:01):
We'll see you on Ello show.

Leo Laporte (00:32:03):
<Laugh> El O show ESPN introduces the world Excel championships. It's actually the financial modeling modeling world cup. Let's be very specific here. And I'm told it was quite good. I don't know. Did you watch it?

Brian McCullough (00:32:19):
No, but that is, it was always amusing to me that you know, money Python with their jokes about chartered accountants and stuff. Yes. The idea that you could have exciting accounting e-sports is I guess a, a brand new world

Leo Laporte (00:32:35):

Denise Howell (00:32:37):
Hundred percent. And I believe that's the channel where I first saw competitive professional corn hole.

Leo Laporte (00:32:44):
Oh yeah. I've yes. This, I saw that too. And I thought why, why it's born? But you know what? Then the guy made an amazing shot and I thought, oh, I'm watching this some more <laugh> this is good.

Doc Rock (00:32:55):
Someone just invented a cornhole where the hole moves around.

Leo Laporte (00:33:00):
Oh no, no, no, no, no. I just bad enough.

Doc Rock (00:33:02):
I, it is. I just saw that

Leo Laporte (00:33:04):
Recently don't don't do this.

Doc Rock (00:33:04):
The hole was moving. And so that way, when you go to throw it, you can't, you can't just, you know, get good at your little arch or whatever you,

Leo Laporte (00:33:11):
The way these are the champions in the Excel, eSports Allstar battle. They kinda look like it. Don't they?

Denise Howell (00:33:19):
Not all of them. I mean, some of them look pretty, you know,

Leo Laporte (00:33:22):
She looks normal.

Denise Howell (00:33:22):
Like you could go have a beer. He's

Leo Laporte (00:33:24):
Gotta big is another forehead. Look at this forehead. My God,

Doc Rock (00:33:30):
God, that is the eight head.

Brian McCullough (00:33:32):
What do you think the, the trash talk is? If you're doing competitive Excel, dude, it's, it's probably not like boxers squaring off ahead of a,

Leo Laporte (00:33:40):
That's not a pivot table. That's typing things. <Laugh> actually this has been a big thing in the big the open, if you're, if you're good at this the open is coming up in October. That means it's open to all. You don't have to be, you know, a qualified competitor competitor, and there's a big $10,000 prize fund. They're gonna live stream it. The ESPN took the live stream, edited down to 30 minutes out of, you know, five hours and and had a highlight

Doc Rock (00:34:10):
For it. I never thought I'd be on ESPN. Jason Moore. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:34:15):
How about, let's see which one would you like? It's a snake. Can you write the snake game and Excel?

Denise Howell (00:34:24):
Oh cool.

Leo Laporte (00:34:25):
You know, I mean connect four what's lumberjack <laugh> what's lumberjack, no specific financial knowledge is required. Well, that's a relief. You have 30 minutes. You'll get an Excel file. That includes the case as well as a separate sheet with correct answers. Take note. There are many approaches to solving the case. So it has something to do with tree harvesting. I think this is great. This is compared to this programing.

Denise Howell (00:34:52):
It is great. I, I live down the street from UC Irvine, which has one of the most, I think, expansive eSports undergraduate and possibly graduate programs. Wow. of any university and they have a whole eSports arena. They have it's look it

Leo Laporte (00:35:12):
Up. You have a, okay. Now your son's going off to college in September. Right?

Denise Howell (00:35:15):

Leo Laporte (00:35:17):
I think that they do this because kids in high school will say, oh, I want to go to that school. Cuz I could study eSports and their parents are going over my dead body. You're gonna study eSports. Would you let your son become an eSports legend?

Denise Howell (00:35:33):
So one of my good friends, one of our, my son's good friends it was sort of going down that path. I don't know that e-sports will be his life, but his parents did support him and you know, I mean there's money to be made there guys. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:35:49):
Oh one, am I saying

Denise Howell (00:35:50):
Just a joke? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:35:51):
My, my 27 year old son is a, is a to chef and I have supported him in, in building his career as a TikTok. Right. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so you're right. What am I saying? Although if he'd come to me as on his way to college saying dad, I'm going to school to study TikTok. I might have had, I might have had some qualms about all this. Yeah, yeah. Super report all he's you know, he's got, I hate to say it, but he's got more followers than TWiTt does. So I, I can't complain. He's doing right. I guess, although he keeps asking me for money, is that, what is that normal? <Laugh>

Denise Howell (00:36:25):
You you'll you'll flip that in a couple of years. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:36:29):
It's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying I'm keeping track you know, in a couple of years I may be calling you. Let's take a little break. I love this panel. It's great to have you Brian McCullough, the tech meme ride home podcast, a daily daily show. But you do sometimes seven days a week.

Brian McCullough (00:36:46):
We did seven this week. Yes. Wow. It just depends on what interviews we get bonus episodes and, and things like that. That's

Leo Laporte (00:36:53):
Awesome. And it's doing well and you're you're you love

Brian McCullough (00:36:58):
Being a podcaster. As I told you, last time, there's a, a venture fund. Now the, all the LPs are listeners of the show. Awesome. And so that has become a whole, a whole second. That's why we have more bonus episodes now, cuz we, we bring the companies on to tell us what they're doing.

Leo Laporte (00:37:13):
Imagine if I had told my dad, when I went off to college dead, I'm gonna be a podcaster. I don't actually, if I had told him dead, I'm gonna work in radio. He would've mocked me. <Laugh> he would've said under, under no circumstances.

Brian McCullough (00:37:26):
Well, or, or I tell my parents that I'm gonna run a venture capital fund. How did you do that? You went to get an MBA. No, no, no. I started a podcast

Leo Laporte (00:37:34):
Podcast. Yeah. It's not it's magic. It's the magic dust that we sprinkle in. Everything we do also from the wonderful E cam and and his YouTube channel doc rock in the house. Youtube do com slash doc rock. Always. Good to see you. My friend D O C R O C K in the us. Thanks sir. A

Doc Rock (00:37:54):
You know, it's, it's funny. We just started a brand new podcast. My marketing director, Katie and I, and it's called the flow. And we're talking about doing podcasts from a video first perspective. We have dropped your name so many times in the first two episodes

Leo Laporte (00:38:11):
<Laugh> I was because I was the idiot who did that? Yeah.

Doc Rock (00:38:14):
Yeah. And people did. Don't still don't understand how video first is a, is an incredible play because I still can chop all the audio pieces, but now we're in this social media thing with short form video taking little chunks and making them into reals shorts and tos without chefing is one of the best ways to get your marketing out. You bet. So you bet as a, as I'm here to say thank you for pioneering it. And it's funny cuz I'm a minute.

Leo Laporte (00:38:42):
My drop was, this is not, it is not a show for women, low disorders. I apologize. Dot com. No, I looked up flow podcast and it went to bloodstream media. So I would say, say the URL again.

Doc Rock (00:38:55):
Flow <Laugh> I

Leo Laporte (00:38:59):

Doc Rock (00:38:59):
I was teaching the workflow of how to generate podcast from a video first perspective. Perfect. And the thing is I was like, you know, one of the first things I did when I got my apple TV one, the one that looks more like a Mac mini than the apple TV.

Leo Laporte (00:39:12):
Oh the old one.

Doc Rock (00:39:13):
Yeah. Let's go in subscribe to all of the TWiTtch shows. Thank you. And it used to be on the, you know, first budget cuz at that time, not on, on video podcasts out there. Yeah. And then most people don't remember that apple had a button for video and that the button is now gone. So you have to go look for video podcasts, but it's been the thing

Leo Laporte (00:39:33):
If you and Katie want me to come on, I will be. Or, or Lisa cuz our Lisa, my wife and our CEO is also really good at explaining the economics of a video podcast.

Doc Rock (00:39:43):
She is better looking to you.

Leo Laporte (00:39:44):
She's a lot better looking. Think I, I love you the more so well you just let me know. I'll be glad. I'll be glad to do that. And Denise, how I miss this weekend law? 

Denise Howell (00:39:53):
I know I do too. And we all have podcasts coming out of our ears on this episode of TWiT apparently. Oh I am so grateful to know about the flow dot E yeah. Podcast. Cuz I I'm definitely gonna watch that. I'm gonna recommend it to some folks I'm working with cuz I am going to have my own podcast again. I don't think that I'm allowed to say where or when my partner in this is very cloak and dagger about what we're doing and when and where it it's all happening, but it's soon. It's

Leo Laporte (00:40:28):
Soon. I am so glad to hear

Denise Howell (00:40:29):
That my own show and I'm, co-hosting a show with him.

Leo Laporte (00:40:32):
So please, when you when you went in and launched, come back and and tell us, cuz I want to plug it like crazy. I wish we were still doing this weekend law, but I'm just glad somebody is. That's great. That's great.

Denise Howell (00:40:43):
Yeah, no, it's not gonna be this, this week in long. It's gonna be slightly different, but it will be fun. I've got a couple shows in the can already. And so yes, you'll be the first to know.

Leo Laporte (00:40:52):
Yay. And there are still of course, many episodes of this weekend law, almost 500 of them on our work slash T I L our show today is brought to you by it pro TV. Actually, this is a related thing, cuz it pro TV was started by two guys, Tim broom and Don Ette who were it trainers, but in a more traditional classroom setting. And this was some years ago at NA B, I was on a panel with Adam Carol and some others talking about video and podcasting way back when at NA B and Tim and Don were at the panel. We talked afterwards. They said, you know, I, maybe we could do this with it training. And it was there that the, the idea for it pro TV was born now fast forward, about eight or nine years. And it pro TV is huge.

Leo Laporte (00:41:43):
They've done so well. They launched in 2013. They now have seven studios open every day, 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM creating great new content. You can watch it pro TV on your TV. You can watch it on your computer. They have apps for, you know, all the major platforms like apple TV. You can actually learn it the easiest possible way. And let me tell you if you've got a business, it's not just for people getting into it, you have an it team. You need them to keep up on this, right? Cuz it is constantly changing to re-certify to learn new skills, to Polish up old skills. They now you might set up a training system for them, but you gotta make sure you do one that they're, they're gonna love that they're gonna use. And that's it pro TV, 80% of users who start a video on it, pro TV go all the way through because it's engaging.

Leo Laporte (00:42:39):
It's fun. They really know what they do. They have instructors, they call 'em entertainers. Then they they're experts in the field, but they also communicate so well their passion for it. They communicate that knowledge. And that's what keeps you engaged in the in the shows 5,800 hours of training. You can get all the training and search for your team done in one place, every vendor, every skill you need, Microsoft, Cisco, Linux, apple security, cloud, everything you want your team to know. And their dashboard is great for the business plan. You can track team results, manage seats, assign and unassigned team members, access monthly usage reports to make sure that your investment is paying off. You'll see all the metrics you need. Logins, viewing time tracks completed and more. You can create your own subsets of users. So you can say you three, you need look at this, the G you three, you can, you can study this.

Leo Laporte (00:43:36):
You can study that assignments can be individual episodes all 20 to 30 minutes. So you could say, Hey, at your lunch break, I want you to watch this. Or you could do full courses and they've got all the advanced reporting. You need to get insight into your team's viewing patterns and progress over any period of time. If you've gotta justify it to the guys upstairs of the C-suite, you get beautiful visual reports, that'll really show you and show them the progress your team is making. So whether you're an individual looking to get into it, an it professional looking to expand your knowledge, or you've got a team that you wanna keep up to date it. Pro TV is a one stop shop. Give your team the it development platform. They need to level up their skills while enjoying the journey. I mean enjoying it for teams of any size from two to a thousand volume discounts, start at five seats, go to it.

Leo Laporte (00:44:28):
Pro.Tv/TWiT. And if, when you're talking to your account executive, you mentioned the secret word, TWiT 30 TWiT three zero. You can get at least 30% off, maybe even more on a business plan, TWiTt 30, that's the offer code it We thank 'em so much. I could congratulate Tim and Don on the job they've done. They've really made this into a, the best place to learn it. And I feel a little bit proprietary about it. We've been with 'em ever since then. It offer code TWiT 30. Thank you. It pro TV for supporting this week in tech. I'm curious what y'all think of this. Google is going all in they're buying ads. They've created a site to get apple onto the RCS bandwagon. It's time for apple to fix texting. It's not about the color of the bubbles, says the website. It's the blurry videos, the broken group chats, the missing read receipts and typing indicators, no texting over wifi more. Is this gonna work? What do you think Brian is this, is this, is this a good strategy for Google?

Brian McCullough (00:45:38):
I, I don't think so because first of all the rest of the world is on WhatsApp, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I I met with somebody from Singapore this past week and it's like, I'm, I'm like, well, here's my phone number? He's like, what are you talking about already? It we're, we're connected on WhatsApp. I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. So the rest of the world is already locked down. They here in north America, at least with the younger folks you know, you've got iMessage sort of and, and so essentially all they're trying to do what they wanted bubble.

Leo Laporte (00:46:13):
I'm sorry, I just, they

Brian McCullough (00:46:14):
Wanna video. They wanna get rid of the green bubble, but they're, they're making the argument of, well, messaging should be a standard, which generally I'm in favor of except for the fact that like they're shoving a standard that most of the world kind of doesn't need or want. And so this would require sort of, you know people rewriting stuff from the ground up and, and people adopting new things. And so like, I, yeah, I don't think that there's anywhere for them to go. This is just to my mind, a naked play at the regulators to try to put

Leo Laporte (00:46:46):
The audience is not apple or apple users. It's regulators. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that. Cuz apple users are just gonna thumb their, this is like stupid. I don't want I, yes, you're a green bubble. Get outta me, get outta my life. I don't, apple users are perfectly happy with messages, right? Doc rock

Doc Rock (00:47:05):
A hundred percent. And I think RCS is more problematic. If anything, it would probably be better on our end to open up the IMEs aside and let them in. But that would be hard too, because the thing that makes IESs works is, you know, what devices are talking, so it can be easier to secure. The disadvantage of the Android platform is it's everywhere. So, you know, you can find all kind of random things. I, I just got this really cool live streaming box called Yolo box pro. And I just realized recently it's basically an Android box. So yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know. I think we can never get to this RCS thing matter what they're

Leo Laporte (00:47:48):
Trying to do. I, the Google says it's not about the color of the bubbles. Iphone users get a bad texting experience. Really? No,

Doc Rock (00:47:55):
We don't.

Brian McCullough (00:47:56):
No, we don't. I don't think so.

Leo Laporte (00:47:57):
Really. You want a bad

Doc Rock (00:47:59):
You, my favorite thing in experience data is UN sending a text and then getting rid of it. I've been having so much fun playing with that. Oh

Leo Laporte (00:48:07):
Yeah. The disappearing, the disappearing,

Doc Rock (00:48:09):
The disappearing, that thing is glorious because we have all seen and it's not even just because you wanna say something angry and deleted, it's just messing up and then, you know, wanting to fix it. So yeah. It's like the delete button on TWiTtter. We, we actually have it coming in September to the regular mugo verse,

Brian McCullough (00:48:27):
But again the is sorry. Yes. Sorry. Oh, what? Go ahead. And then I'll, I'll probably, I was gonna tell you, come right here.

Denise Howell (00:48:34):
I was gonna tell you what I, what an intriguing idea you had about this being aimed at regulators. But I'm just trying to think through that and understand, okay. What, what would catch the regulators' attention? Regulators are already upset with apple about things like the app store is, is the blue box a sufficient, you know, cornering of the market. There are so many other texting alternatives that aren't apple. I don't think it's really an antitrust concern,

Brian McCullough (00:49:05):
But see, that's the tell that I think that they're, they're targeting regulators with this because if they wanted it to be really expansive and be like, you know what? Messaging should be an open standard, like email, like any number of other things, right? Then they would be including meta in this. They would say, Hey, by the way, telegram everybody, let's, let's integrate this one standard. So this is the baseline standard in the same way that you have baseline SMTP and all this good stuff. They're not, they're going after specifically apple and these ads are in the United States. So that says to me, there's one

Leo Laporte (00:49:38):
Specific, I think you may, this makes a lot more sense. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, apple users are just gonna say, yeah, right Google. And I think Android users are gonna say, Google, you have the worst messaging history in the world. You're telling us that you should, after Allo and Hangouts and chat and meet wave and duo, you're telling us you've got a better wave. Give me a break. I don't think anybody buys this.

Doc Rock (00:50:05):
Remember when we were all like, just gung-ho to get that Google wave invite

Leo Laporte (00:50:09):
Wave. No, I remember when Allo came out, actually Allo was a pretty good solution, but the, but I think you also you nailed this Brian that nobody really is even using SMS messaging anymore. They're all using database messengers. In fact, here is a, a map of the world. Most popular messaging apps, worldwide Apple's messages is not even on the list. Facebook Messenger's big in north America. Whatsapp is 31% of the market. They're the largest telegram 4%. And then of course in Asia, you've got WeChat and line. It is, it's just not, Apple's not even in this mix.

Denise Howell (00:50:54):
Wait, who's the blue,

Doc Rock (00:50:56):

Leo Laporte (00:50:56):
Is line WhatsApp. Oh, WhatsApp.

Brian McCullough (00:50:58):
I'm sorry. Whatsapp

Leo Laporte (00:50:59):
Line is light blue. Yeah. That's not good. Yeah. WhatsApp dominate. Yeah.

Denise Howell (00:51:06):
31%. Look at that.

Leo Laporte (00:51:07):
Yeah. That's WhatsApp. Yeah. I mean, it's, it is a broken system because there's, you know, if you're not, if you're on WhatsApp and your buddies on telegram, one of yous gotta give it is a broken system. There's no interoperability.

Brian McCullough (00:51:24):
Right. Which again, if that was the tech they were taking, which is, you know what, let's, let's clean this all up. Let's let everything, interate everyone join us. They're not taking that tech. They're taking thet of attacking one particular competitor. And not even as you're pointing out the most popular competitor.

Leo Laporte (00:51:41):
Yeah. I, you know,

Denise Howell (00:51:45):
Can I ask a question to all of you? How have the telecommunications carriers let WhatsApp gain their market share here?

Doc Rock (00:51:56):
I was sitting here thinking the exact same thing is like, when we, when SMS first started getting attacked, how did nobody pivot into let's figure this out before they lost control? So you are on 115 point.

Leo Laporte (00:52:10):
I'll tell you the answer. Do you remember how expensive SMS was? You were paying a couple of bucks for like a megabyte worth of data. I mean, like more than that, it was ridiculously expensive. They made so much money on SMS. They didn't want anybody to leave SMS

Brian McCullough (00:52:27):
Classic innovator's dilemma because the, the innovation was, this is a hundred percent free. Although I WhatsApp charged a dollar a year or something, but you know, it, there was, there's no way that at and T and Verizon 15 years ago were gonna be like, you know what, turn it all off. The, the billions of dollars we're making on text messages turn it off tomorrow and we're gonna give this away for free. They, they would never do that until they were forced

Leo Laporte (00:52:51):
To, in in fact you know, their answer to this was stop charging for SMS. Just built it into your bill effectively, cuz nobody pays per message anymore. But in the early days of SMS, not even that long ago, everybody paid per message. There was hugely profitable for them, right.

Denise Howell (00:53:06):
That's why you still get these weird disclaimers about right. You know, messaging fees may apply. What are those

Doc Rock (00:53:13):
<Laugh> oh, <laugh> where they missed a boat was at that time ad rev from, you know, batter ads and you know, web stuff was very big at the time. If they started it back in the day where, you know, every couple of messages, you would get a message from Pepsi or Coke or Expedia or whatever. And we would've gotten used to it and not cared and they would own the ad rev space right now, imagine it was at figured out a way to, to turn, add revenue into their chatting platform. You know, they they're just, they would just be bigger. So it's funny cuz they could have found a way to pay for what they thought they were losing money on, but they just didn't think about it. They were being

Leo Laporte (00:53:55):
Greedy. They were thinking about it. In fact, I remember the, the founders of WhatsApp left Facebook in a Huff because Facebook was gonna introduce ads into WhatsApp and they were furious about it.

Doc Rock (00:54:09):
Yeah. I'm in, I'm into telecoms.

Leo Laporte (00:54:11):
Oh the telecoms. Well you would think the telecoms would've said, well, I mean that's what RCS I guess is, is, is, is a, a late answer to this conundrum of, oh shoot, we're losing everybody to Apple's messages and WhatsApp and, and, and all of this. But I remember Google was pushing RCS for a long time and the telecoms didn't even want it. It took them a long time to come along. I don't know if they're technical issues as well. We actually had something I thought really good called X MPP. That was a really good messaging protocol. It was cross-platform it could work with SMS. If everybody at Google initially supported XMPP. If everybody had supported that we might have had a solution, but it was a in fact, Google even abandoned it for a long time. It was the universal messaging standard in the until about five or six years ago,

Brian McCullough (00:55:10):
Remember famously Steve jobs said they were gonna open source FaceTime as well. So everybody, everybody, when it's convenient for them talks about how interoperability for messaging should be a thing. But

Leo Laporte (00:55:22):
And nobody wants it. They all want silos. Yeah. Remember we used to have pigeon and what were the, what were those multi messenger programs?

Brian McCullough (00:55:31):
Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:55:32):
They were great. Addium on the Mac

Brian McCullough (00:55:35):
Addium yeah,

Doc Rock (00:55:36):
I, I, CQ was, was,

Leo Laporte (00:55:37):
Well, I CQ was dominant. Remember, but then there was aim. That was my thing. And so it was one thing that would one messaging app that would use aim and I CQ and trillion was another one. I think those are the

Doc Rock (00:55:49):
Big threes Addium

Leo Laporte (00:55:51):
ADIO is on the Mac. Trillion was on PC. Those are the big three.

Denise Howell (00:55:56):
I really thought text America was gonna dominate the market. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:56:00):
Mo blogging Mo blogging. God, that's a memory from the past

Doc Rock (00:56:06):
God, what was that one? It is like a posted note app that I used to use. It was called post something. And I was just, I thought it was the coolest thing to just,

Leo Laporte (00:56:15):
There's a, there's a really missed opportunity point. You, I have thought about text America and so long, they were dominant both in Mo blogs, right? Mobile. They were the first there before Instagram, there was text America was an online photo site. They called it Mo blogging.

Doc Rock (00:56:37):
Oh, I know what it was called. It was called post IO. I think that's what it was called. Posto post the

Leo Laporte (00:56:41):
Post Posto. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. Wow. You know, we're getting old when we're thinking about technologies that nobody, nobody, they go, what do you, what are these people talking about? What are they talking about? This is, this is just what we do. Now. We sit around and talk about, remember, remember that text America? Yeah. Oh, I was all in the text America and the, it was about two. It was 2006. They be, this is what happened. They were free. And then they started charging membership fees in July, 2006. And by December, 2007 history, <laugh>

Brian McCullough (00:57:18):
This, but you know what, Leo, what you're talking about, like that gets into like the recent story about how the Kardashians and everybody had that backlash about Instagram and, and someone made a, someone much smarter than me made the point that this is true for everyone that like you have nostalgia for social media for when you first discovered the platform. And it was perfect because it was just your friends and you were expressing yourself for the first time. And every generation sort of has that sort of experience, you know, going back to geo cities and, and, and what have you. So like, EV it's, it's inevitable that it's sort of like, you know no one goes there anymore. It's too popular. Like everybody has that platonic ideal of what it was like when they first found a platform. Yeah. And then, you know, five, six years on 10 years on when your boss is on there, your grandmother's on there. You kind of hate it.

Doc Rock (00:58:09):
You know, Brian, it's funny you say that because when IG first came out, we were at like Mac world 2012 or 2010, something like that. And I remember because when I got the, the post that IG was coming out Leo and a bunch of people, Andy, they were doing a talk on the stage, which was at the back of the hall in Moscone. And we were in the tu a booth, just freaking out this new IG thing. And I remember the later that day, the only thing to argue about our IG was, is it okay to post a picture later? Yes. And it used to be like, no, this is not later Graham, you gotta post it when you get it. And then it switched within a matter of days, it switched to that's taken with the DSLR.

Leo Laporte (00:58:55):
Yes. That's what that's to the camera phone. What are you putting your DSLR photos on there for?

Brian McCullough (00:59:00):
But doc, this is what I'm talking about with the cycle. What's that be real thing? That's supposedly the new hot social it's over. It has to be an instant photo

Leo Laporte (00:59:10):
Is already over. Yeah, yeah,

Brian McCullough (00:59:11):

Leo Laporte (00:59:12):
Isn't, isn't be real already over

Brian McCullough (00:59:14):
The last numbers I saw

Doc Rock (00:59:16):
Real be real of the app.

Brian McCullough (00:59:18):

Leo Laporte (00:59:19):
In fact, now

Brian McCullough (00:59:20):

Leo Laporte (00:59:20):
Prefer according to tech crunch, the CEO of be real, had to send out a message to people at the company to stop you being careful about be real. So the idea of be real was it would pop up a message on your phone. Okay. Now take a picture, whatever you're doing, cuz it's real life. And it would take a picture with both the front facing and the back facing camera. So it'd get you as a selfie and whatever you were doing, but people were doing it and not realizing they were revealing corporate secrets. <Laugh>

Denise Howell (00:59:50):

Doc Rock (00:59:54):
You gotta go to the break room.

Leo Laporte (00:59:55):
Yeah. Right. So this is from the, the, the CEO of of be real. I saw a post on LinkedIn this week from an old buddy of mine. We were on a squash team together, blah, blah, blah. Dave is an analyst at Goldman now and said this summer, his summer intern tipped him off on secret data from Morgan Stanley. How did she find out her friend posted it on be real? She took a selfie at her desk, but on the other side of the camera, right on a laptop were trade secrets out in the open, ready for anyone to steal. So be careful while you be real <laugh> and I think isn't,

Denise Howell (01:00:36):
Isn't the other, I haven't used it, but isn't the other trope of it that everybody does this at the same time. So it's almost like a

Brian McCullough (01:00:42):
Point, right? You have one window. No, well in a, in a day. So it, I think it changes regionally and the time changes every day. Like, so it's not three o'clock for everybody every day. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> but you do only get one window a day. So that the idea is, is that immediacy of, it's not the asynchronicity of

Leo Laporte (01:01:00):
Something you're doing,

Brian McCullough (01:01:01):
We're used to, right. It's what I'm doing right now. It's what you are doing right now. It's what everyone's doing right now.

Leo Laporte (01:01:05):
But I don't think it was like a day in the life where it was everybody at the same time. I think it was kind of somewhat randomized. But the other thing was if you missed that window, which I, the implication was that you are constantly have your phone turned on, cuz you only have a few minutes when that alert goes, I would miss it every time. But then you could like a tardy student post, a late be reel and it would be, and it would be marked Leo posted this three hours late. And, and unless you posted it, you couldn't see your friends be real from that day. The whole thing was just scolding and stupid. And it's, I think it's, I think it's had its day already three seconds later, it's over. It's actually, it's actually been around since 2020. It just as is often the case, you know, somebody discovers it then an influencer uses it and all of a sudden everybody's using it.

Brian McCullough (01:02:00):
But you know, look that again, to, to put this in the context of how social networks succeed that's a gimmick, right? Yeah. That may or may not pay off for them, but so was Snapchat at the beginning. So the right, the key for having a, a, a social network that lives on is you have to have a gimmick that makes it different. And then, then you have to be around long enough to, again, hook a generation into what talking to each other. So it's like, you, you, you hook 'em with the gimmick. And then if you can keep 'em around long enough that a cohort of 16 to 21 year olds, that's where they go to talk with their friends. Then it doesn't matter what the gimmick is. You can then go on and do stories. You can go on and do all these other things. It's. But, but in the end, what makes a social network stick is we all get hooked on whatever network, again based on a certain age or something. And then that's how we communicate with our friends.

Leo Laporte (01:02:52):
Twittter was what, 108 characters, right. Or

Denise Howell (01:02:55):
120. Right. And I'm sitting here trying to remember what its original prompt was. Was it what's happening

Leo Laporte (01:03:01):
Or yeah, yeah, yeah.

Denise Howell (01:03:03):
Yeah. Something

Leo Laporte (01:03:04):
Like that. Yeah. So it was like what's happening right now. Yeah. Yeah. But, and then the thing with TWiTtter is it evolved and they listened to the users and evolved judiciously. There was a good article though, in the new Yorker, we've kind of talking about this all week. This was at the end of July TikTok in the fall of social media giants. And the premise is social media is over. So what, what was the promise of Facebook and TWiTtter at social media in the early days, it was you follow your friends, your family, your high school girlfriend, your high school boyfriend. You know, you follow the people you care about and you'll get updates about their lives. It was social, it was a group, but what quickly happened? And I think you could blame YouTube for this is the rise of the creator. And now all the social platforms have become creator platforms. That's what's happening in Instagram. It's, it's stopped being about the pictures, your friends post. And it's turning into TikTok because YouTube and TikTok succeed, because creators are creating compelling content that you spend more time looking at than your friends and family ever did. And Facebook realized this, they went to the algorithm. So the premise of this article by Cal Newport, and I think it's accurate is that what we're really seeing is the rise of creator media and the fall of the social network discuss.

Doc Rock (01:04:23):

Denise Howell (01:04:23):
That's why be real was there,

Doc Rock (01:04:25):
Right? Is my job.

Leo Laporte (01:04:26):
What you disagree, doc rock.

Doc Rock (01:04:28):
No, no, no. I'm a content creation coach. This is my job. Oh, you

Leo Laporte (01:04:31):
That's what you do is content. Yeah.

Doc Rock (01:04:33):
I'm I teach people how to use the content. I hate the words. I'll just use them. Cuz they work. People understand them to use the content creator economy to either expand your businesses, launch new businesses, like get out there. This is literally what I teach people. Because if you, if you really spend some time on, on YouTube and look at the good content that's out there, which there are a lot, but it's so much fun to make fun of the trash, right? If you're on Instagram Rios or TikTok, even looking at some of the great contents out there, there's a lot, but it's so much fun to make fun of the trash. And this is what people do. And anybody who back in the day was a, you know, a film buff, you know like Christina Warren. And I used to talk about movies all the time when we were at talk and she's a legitimate film buff. Right? We knew what a good movies were and people would be like, oh, there's nothing good at the cinnamon plates. No, maybe not, but there's some dope movies out there. You just gotta go find them. You know what I'm saying? And, and you're right. I think that content creator generated media in the next five or six years are going blow past everything that's out there. And even the Amazons and the apple and the Netflix are starting to pick up on smaller production houses as opposed to the big stuff.

Leo Laporte (01:05:51):
But to me,

Doc Rock (01:05:52):
Did they throw money at their big show?

Leo Laporte (01:05:53):
You were right. You said, that's what be real was trying to do was create a right. And, but I think

Denise Howell (01:05:58):
That's why kids are still on snap too. They're not on snap to follow Beyonce or whatever. They're on snap to be with their friends.

Leo Laporte (01:06:05):
And I think why discord, for instance you know, our discord in the club that's become a social network cuz it's just, there's no ads. There's no algorithm that doesn't surface content. You're gonna, that's sticky. It's just what people are talking about there. The New York article also points out a hazard because Facebook, when it was your friends, you couldn't leave Facebook. That's where your friends are. As soon as it just becomes content, another TV channel, it's no longer sticky. That's why TikTok can beat them because TikTok is doing a better job of surfacing creative content. And really, if you think about it, TikTok is just a TV channel, right? That's

Denise Howell (01:06:47):
All, it is 10% it's yes for me. Anyway. I mean everybody's feed is different, right? But there's, there's

Leo Laporte (01:06:53):
A everybody's feed is, is D yes, exactly. It's a TV channel that is algorithmically and very sensitively and cleverly algorithmically tuned to just what you want. And you watch the food. The does the channel,

Doc Rock (01:07:07):
Victoria people. Yes. Sorry.

Leo Laporte (01:07:09):
So instead of the food, you don't watch the, you might watch the food network at Denise, right? But that

Denise Howell (01:07:14):
No, I only watch

Leo Laporte (01:07:16):
Has become your food network. And for me, it's the bikini network. And for, you know, it's different. No, it's not. I'm just kidding. But cuz my son is a food creator and he is done very well on TikTok. So I do get a lot of food as well, but, but it becomes, imagine what if and when you turn on your TV, your TV was so smart that it knew exactly what you wanted to watch at this very moment and put on shows and cuz we're all short attention span. You flick up, you flick up, you get the next show. It's always constantly entertaining. That's why you have spend up spending, you know, waking up at four in the morning, having spent four hours <laugh> of vital sleep time on TikTok. It's brilliant.

Denise Howell (01:07:56):
And to doc rocks, secret point

Leo Laporte (01:07:57):
Thing is, go ahead, go ahead, Denise. Then doc

Denise Howell (01:08:00):
Youtube. Youtube is that as well? Just in a longer pro more produced format. Oh yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:08:05):
Youtube taught us YouTube was the first to do it. I think go ahead doc. Yeah.

Doc Rock (01:08:10):
What, what I've been, I'm talking to my people about a lot is for, for all my friends or you know, students that come to me and they're saying, well, I don't like the way the algorithm works and this and that. I'm like, you know, you can control the algorithm and they're like, what do you mean? I was like, when you see something that you like, don't just hit the heart button, leave a actual comment, leave a relevant comment or something of that nature. If you see something that you don't like, do not comment on it. Do not go to tell that person they're dumb. Do not go to tell the person you hate them or whatever. Just let it go Elsa. And if you do that, it's all, it's all good.

Leo Laporte (01:08:47):

Denise Howell (01:08:48):
Right. And of course subscribe cause that yes

Doc Rock (01:08:50):
And subscribe, tell the I'll subscribe is important. So give the merit where the merit is due. Like the things that you like conversate with the people or even the people in the chat and stuff you like, and the algorithm will show you exactly what you ask for. But if you're out there talking about all the stuff you hate, the algorithm will just keep showing it to you. So like you actually control the

Leo Laporte (01:09:09):
Algorithm. And by the way, this is why I'm announcing my retirement because I can't possibly compete. <Laugh> I do three hour shows as somebody in the chair room's pointing out. And I don't pay any attention to what you're interested in. I have no way

Doc Rock (01:09:23):
Of beyond this week in TT <laugh> this week in to, with Leo, I'm just waiting for the dance. Oh rev, rev just posted Divo release whip 42 years ago. I'm old

Leo Laporte (01:09:35):
Divo released with it 42 years ago.

Doc Rock (01:09:38):
I loved that was my thing. When I was a kid, I was in high school. So

Leo Laporte (01:09:42):
With the flower pot.

Denise Howell (01:09:43):
Woo. So was I? Yes.

Doc Rock (01:09:47):
Gumby. I could change my mic cover to purple if you want, but not in the middle of the show.

Leo Laporte (01:09:51):
I like the orange. I think it's good.

Denise Howell (01:09:53):
I, I think our generation has to just take a victory lap cuz the eighties and the nineties, first of all, they were great to kind of live through while we were there. And now they're just back. There's so much nostalgia for those time periods.

Doc Rock (01:10:06):
Oh yeah. Yes. There's a lady on TikTok and IG. I forget her name. It's something CS. And she does these things where she's showing the, you know, the gen X is loving this song. I'm sorry, the gen Z's loving this song and the millennials pushed him out away. And then they listened to the version. That's the millennial version. And then we come in as like, nah, it's actually older than you think we slide them off away. And then so the most recent one is off the Tom to club track, which is like was then, you know, Mariah carry fantasy for the millennials. But then yes. Now it's some other song with the big, big energy. And it's like, man, time, time club is 1977 player. I Don know where you at. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:10:45):
You guys you're making me feel really old. Cuz I, for years have been saying Banga gong was originally, T-Rex forget this TWiTsted sister. So it, it comes round. It goes around and it comes around. I'll never forget years ago, listening to the high school marching band. We used to live in a house on the hill that we'd hear the high school marching band. And then, and then they would have lunch and they'd play rock music. And it was always music from the sixties and seventies. I thought this is something going on this very strange. So maybe there is this, his, maybe this is what happens is there's nostalgia for the stuff before you were born. I do want to give credit actually to Scott Rosenberg, who was, I think the founder of salon, I wanna say used to write for the examiner. I think cuz he wrote an Aus the sunset of the social network and it was he, I think who first pointed out that these, these social network is being replaced now by the discovery engine, by the television channel, by TikTok and YouTube and so forth.

Leo Laporte (01:11:44):
And it makes it hard for these companies to succeed because they just it's like the phone company that missed the boat on SMS. It's the in, as you said, it's the innovator's dilemma, Brian. It's hard to take that business that making you a lot of money and say, yeah, it's over anyway. Very interesting article from Scott Rosenberg on Axios, let's take a little break. We will come back with more with our esteemed panel, Brian McCullough from the tech meme ride home podcast. Do you ever do your internet history stuff anymore? I ask you that every time

Brian McCullough (01:12:22):
Every now and again when sorry, someone occasionally someone will reach out to me and I'll be like, oh yes, you qualify. I will dust off the, the history hat for you. But yeah, not, not, not really much anymore. Seeing is how I do show seven days a

Leo Laporte (01:12:38):
Week. Yeah. You don't have time who got time for that. Right? Right. By the way, I'm, I'm, I'm informed that TWiTsted sister did not do Banga gong. It was power station, but you knew that you knew that also doc rock, great to have you YouTube doc rock creative. Are you happy to have Renee Richie now? Representing creators at YouTube?

Doc Rock (01:12:58):
Absolutely. It's so funny. For two reasons, one, because we needed a creative liaison at YouTube in general,

Leo Laporte (01:13:05):
There was no one doing that.

Doc Rock (01:13:07):
Nobody was really doing it. And then it's funny cuz I'm like, yo Renee, I been friends for years. So I feel like I got a man on the inside, you know? So it's kinda funny we do. And it's not that you know, I'm like, I'm never gonna bother him and call him up me like yo R man hook me up. I always call him R two. But yeah, I just really appreciate that. They decided, and I wish more companies would think about that. You need liaisons for the actual users of the platform or in their case, the creators of the platform. So it was a very awesome move for Renee. He well deserved it and yes. Nice to have a homey own inside.

Leo Laporte (01:13:42):
Yes. And Denise Howell, the one and only from D Howell, Denise D Howell on the TWiTtter, I show today brought to you by a company I'm fond of. I love these guys, mint mobile. You've seen the incredible Ryan Reynolds ads. I just love their attitude, their style and mint. What mint mobile's doing, I think is really important for consumers after years of fine print contracts and getting ripped off by big, big wireless, big cellular. If we've learned anything that we learned is always a catch. So perhaps when I tell you, you're not, you're just not gonna believe it. When I tell you mint mobile offers premium wireless service at 15 bucks a month, you're gonna say no, Leo, cuz I'm gonna end up paying three times that I know. No it's not true. I know cuz I use mint mobile. There isn't a catch mint.

Leo Laporte (01:14:33):
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Leo Laporte (01:15:29):
Everybody else charges it for the SIM. Not, not mint mobile. So you can use your own phone, keep your phone number. If you want, you can move it over. You keep all your contacts and stuff or you can buy phones from them. In fact, I got an iPhone se for a great price from mint, mobile mint. Mobile is just really about giving you the service you want from people who really love the biz mint mobile get premium wireless service starting at 15 bucks a month. There's no catch 10 gigs, 20 bucks a month, 15 gigs. That's the one I got 15 gigs a month for 25 bucks a month or the unlimited plan. You pick what you need. I think for most people, four gigs a month is plenty. That's $15. What are you paying now for wireless service? A lot more than that to get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month and get the plan shipped to your door for free mint,

Leo Laporte (01:16:21):
They got a family plan too. You bet mint Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a slash TWiT. Thank you, mint mobile for doing what you do and for supporting our show. We appreciate it. And you support our show by using that address. Please do cuz then they know you saw it here. Mint Here's a big C change. I don't know what this means. Maybe our esteemed panel can explain it for the first time ever in Q2 cable lost broadband market share a negative growth quarter. People are moving away from cable, internet service. How do we explain that? The top seven us cable companies lost over 60,000 subscribers, April may and June Comcast. The number one internet service provider in the country was flat gained no new users. Number two, charter lost 21,000 customers. Number three, alts lost 39,000 customers. Is this just a blip or is this signaling a signaling, a C change?

Brian McCullough (01:17:32):
Isn't this wasn't this the promise of 5g 5g was gonna be so fast that it was going to be. So you add that to the, to the fact that not everybody needs a computer. If you, if you just do all of your computing on your phone and you can't really tell the difference in speed between because you know, remember even if you have the best ISP in the world, you're still limited to your wifi speeds. So maybe people are just like, Hey, this is good enough. No worries.

Leo Laporte (01:18:02):
I think you nailed it. Nailed it. Yep.

Doc Rock (01:18:04):
You know another, the,

Denise Howell (01:18:05):
To that,

Leo Laporte (01:18:06):
Yeah, go ahead.

Denise Howell (01:18:08):
The PS to that is for power users. Cable can't get fiber to a lot of places. So I know that we dumped our cable to go with at and T because they could get us fiber.

Leo Laporte (01:18:22):
Yeah. At and T has been aggressive in rolling out fiber. In fact, it's interesting. Yeah, because Google had stopped doing fiber, Google fiber. They just announced, I think, five new cities and they're gonna be rolling out more fiber. So maybe this is fiber's time. It's five G's time. I agree. Both T-Mobile and Verizon are selling home internet service. Now wirelessly I for my daughter who lives near a highway. So she's near a Verizon towers. I bought it's $25 a month just getting 150 megabyte megabits down, I think 20 up for nothing. And it's just a wireless box. You're put in there, you turn it on and it works. Doc rock. You were gonna say something.

Doc Rock (01:19:04):
I was gonna say like couple of things that are going on as well. When everybody started looking at places to sort of, you know, pinch pockets a little bit, if you have, for instance, Verizon, they were doing, or your Netflix streaming doesn't count against your bill. Right? So a bunch each, one of the companies has a thing that they offer for free without, you know, using your data plan or whatever. So for instance, in, at and T it was HBO, which I think might change now that it got sold. But anyway, people are using that to watch what they need to watch or just ignoring the watching altogether and just watching the social stuff. Because like, T-Mobile has, you know, streaming, you can stream stuff on YouTube or whatever without taxing your bill. So then you don't need that at the house and you get your broadband outside at work or whatever to do the heavy lifting stuff. But most of your just consumption stuff you can do on iPad, iPhone, apple, TV, Android, TV boxes in the light. It's

Leo Laporte (01:20:04):
Kinda like the end of the landline phone, right? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> people just doing everything on their cell. It is the case that fixed wireless. That's what they call the T-Mobile and Verizon home internet. It's fixed wireless, huge growth, 816,000 new subscribers in Q4.

Brian McCullough (01:20:20):
Wait, what was that? Eight

Leo Laporte (01:20:22):
Hun 816,000.

Brian McCullough (01:20:24):

Leo Laporte (01:20:25):
Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. <Laugh> T-Mobile Verizon are seeing steady gains for their FWA fixed wireless services, which together picked up 816,000 subs in Q2, April, may and June of this year.

Brian McCullough (01:20:43):
But again, this is what they told us was gonna happen. I just, you know, it's happening, got, got so jaded about the, that 5g showed up

Leo Laporte (01:20:51):
5G, 5g,

Brian McCullough (01:20:51):
5G. We're not having the you know, the, the telemedicine surgeries yet or whatever, but, so I thought it was overblown height, but maybe it just, it's just now happening.

Doc Rock (01:21:02):
I mean, its here's the cool thing to look out for if T-Mobile is growing at that clip. And somehow I I'm a Deadpool mobile subscriber, which runs on T-Mobile. So like if Ryan and which is Maclin can get over there and talk it up and get them to allow us to get one of these in the house. Hey it's on I'm switching.

Leo Laporte (01:21:22):
Oh yeah. Wouldn't you love a mint mobile fixed wireless. Yeah.

Doc Rock (01:21:26):
Hundred percent. I, I call it Deadpool mobile. And my, my girlfriend's other boyfriend is Ryan Reynolds. So I actually like him too. I'm like, you know, Hey, it's, it's incredible. It's absolutely incredible. And I do believe if they can figure out a way to let some of the, what I wanna call 'em N V and E but that's a hard drive <laugh> what do you call it? The smaller mobile companies.

Leo Laporte (01:21:48):
NVN OS yeah.

Doc Rock (01:21:49):
NVN OS mobile virtual. You figure out a way to those guys on where they're using some of the other, it is spread quicker. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:21:55):

Brian McCullough (01:21:55):
Yeah. You know what, Leo, this is also I just switched to a different carrier, which I won't name for various sponsor reasons and things like that. But yeah, we should

Leo Laporte (01:22:04):
Mention mint. Mobile is a sponsor

Brian McCullough (01:22:06):
Mint. Mobile is great.

Leo Laporte (01:22:08):
Do we? No, you don't have to say that at all. You even mention your other carrier.

Brian McCullough (01:22:13):
They sponsor my show as well. So I do love me. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:22:16):
Okay. So you don't wanna say the other carrier

Brian McCullough (01:22:18):
<Laugh> so, but the other thing that has just happened since I did that switch, I never used to get a millimeter wave and I have, and, and I live in New York city. So that was also why I got jaded. I was like, okay, it's it's a year, two years into them teaching this

Leo Laporte (01:22:34):
On it's it's just tight,

Brian McCullough (01:22:35):
But now I've been getting it really. And it actually is noticeable that it's faster. So I

Leo Laporte (01:22:40):
Don't, I mean, still millimeter LA, which is the, the fastest, you know, gigabit plus telco cellular data is very, very limited. Both in locations and range. It only goes 800 feet. So you must be living your tower

Brian McCullough (01:22:55):
And, and, and weird places because it's on my walk. I do walks and runs around prospect park and then Windsor terrace on prospect park, Southwest boom. It shows up exactly. But then, you know grand army Plaza where there's tons of people, it never shows up. But yeah, when it does show up, it, it is noticeable. Yeah. You will. You will notice a

Leo Laporte (01:23:13):
Difference. I think the big change though, was the mid band, the roll out of the mid band. So there are three bands. There's millimeter wave, which is a very, very high frequency. There's the 700 megahertz, low frequency, which is really no faster than LTE. So you could be on it technically it's 5g, but you'd never know, but, and I'm seeing it here. I'm seeing it everywhere. This is what my daughter is getting. There's this mid band, which is very fast, is noticeably faster than LT. That is being very widely rolled out by all the big three carriers. And I think that is really what's happening. And that's the, yeah, I, I like you doc. I, I mocked 5g. I remember remember that apple announcement, not last year, but the year before where they said 5g, every three seconds, you know maybe it was, they were too early on that maybe they were, you know, jumping on this marketing thing, but I think it is now starting to happen. And I think maybe that you're exactly right. That's, what's happening to Comcast charter, Cox LTS, Mediacom cable one and breeze line. Now

Doc Rock (01:24:17):
I noticed that Spectrum's not on the list, but it's funny because that's our building contract, you know, for the condo. Yeah. They just came in and stuck in all of the internal fiber lines. So we're switching over to spectrum fiber middle September while I'm on my road

Leo Laporte (01:24:33):
Trip. I think they're not on this list probably cuz they didn't announce their quarterly results this past week. But between the big broadband companies, they still have 75 million households of the 109 million households that are getting broadband. So they're still dominant.

Brian McCullough (01:24:49):
What was that number that you said 800,000 people in one quarter should

Leo Laporte (01:24:54):
One quarter.

Brian McCullough (01:24:55):
Yeah. That's that's nuts. Significant.

Leo Laporte (01:24:57):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean they only have 2.2 million. This, these are brand new services and if they're growing at the rate of nearly a million a quarter, it ain't gonna be long before and that's gotta be growing at the, you know, the, the cost of the cable companies. I think that's very interesting cable companies are suffering anyway. People are watching streaming now. This is, it's a fascinating time to watch the turmoil in streaming services and in cable companies and the battle. And then now you're seeing, for instance, companies like Google and apple come after sports contracts, we've talked before about the Sunday ticket, which is a two and a half billion contract with NFL that DirecTV paid one and a half billion for it. What is it? Four or five years ago has been losing half a billion dollars a year on it. It's not been a very good deal for them. And they're not bidding on it when it comes up next year. But the companies that can't afford to bid two and a half billion dollars for Sunday ticket are Google, apple, Amazon. These are companies that are not in the traditional broadcast business or the cable business.

Doc Rock (01:26:08):
I would love Sunday taking on apple TV plus, but that you gotta make me one promise apple, you know, I love you guys. I used to work there. Do not bring the cheeky announcement

Leo Laporte (01:26:19):

Doc Rock (01:26:20):
Oh like you tried to do

Leo Laporte (01:26:22):
Baseball Friday night baseball.

Doc Rock (01:26:23):
Oh that's awful. Oh my God, everybody, everybody I'm checking to see which of my homies I used to work with. I can call and yell at. Cause that was just, that was just brutal Leo and I would do a much better job like doing your games than what you call that feed. Don't do that. But I would love for you to get NFL Sunday ticket.

Leo Laporte (01:26:42):
They're also talking to get to big 10 athletics. I think if apple is smart, we've talked about this on Mac break weekly. If apple is smart, they would use, and they've got major league soccer, right? They've got the us soccer league. If they, they would use these as a test ground for doing a better job than the networks do. That's the real threat to the networks. What if we did a 4k? What if we used, you know I don't know, modern technology. What if we put a camera in the huddle? You know what, if we did

Brian McCullough (01:27:14):
A, we've done a lot of that stuff with European football, soccer, where they have the multiple cams yeah. That you can choose from and things like that. Yeah. There's

Leo Laporte (01:27:23):
A re this is the opportunity for apple. I mean they're technology company dos that and I'm a little disappointed that they haven't done that all they did with Friday night, baseball is have toned down graphics, stupid music behind the announcements and terrible play by play people.

Doc Rock (01:27:39):
And I'm SU I'm, I'm a hardcore footy fan. I'm super happy that NBC got the contract and they drew their best. But they're so American that they don't realize they will put up the Chiron on top of the players.

Leo Laporte (01:27:52):
Oh no, they

Doc Rock (01:27:53):
Haven't figured out where to put their Chirons. No, no. And they keep covering up the action and I'm like, guys, guys, really? What are you doing? Stop talking

Leo Laporte (01:28:00):
Best the best. I think the best sport in the world, Australian Rouge football, unbelievable sport. These guys are wearing short shorts. <Laugh> no, no pads.

Doc Rock (01:28:11):

Leo Laporte (01:28:12):
They're just, they're biting each other's ears off. It's like, and it's in mud and it's crazy, but it's so much fun to watch. I think Apple's really, that's why Apple's doing soccer. I think Apple's really interested. Maybe you European types know it as football, but I think Apple's really interested in taking something that is not yet a huge sport in America, but has the promise of becoming a huge sport and getting behind it and making it

Brian McCullough (01:28:38):
Well and, and a league that because it's not the league or the sport is willing to play ball with them. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. We've been the, we've been the sport of the future in America since 1972 hat tip men and blazers. But the like, so the NFL, you do a deal with the NFL. They're gonna tell you big 10. They're gonna tell you what you can and can not do. MLS is gonna be like, like, what do you wanna do? Let's try it. Let's try

Leo Laporte (01:29:03):
Anything. This is the front page of MLSs website, the big announcement coming in 2023. And it's got an apple on it. I mean, yes, it's huge for them. And it's a 10 year deal. So I, I do hope apple does a better job with soccer than they do right now with baseball.

Doc Rock (01:29:23):
I hope so too, especially for by Seattle Sanders fans in the building. Yeah. Let's

Leo Laporte (01:29:29):
Make this. Does Hawaii have a MLS team?

Doc Rock (01:29:32):
No, that's why I gotta be a Seattle Sounders fan.

Leo Laporte (01:29:34):
That's sad. That's

Brian McCullough (01:29:35):
So sad. Check, check his hat. Leo. He trained

Leo Laporte (01:29:37):
Hat. Oh my God. For those of you not watching video, the black E cam hat has now been replaced with a Sounders lime green, very attractive Sounders hat.

Doc Rock (01:29:48):
I love Seattle Sounders. It's funny.

Leo Laporte (01:29:51):
Seattle's got a got way too many good teams. We're gonna have to do something about that. <Laugh>

Doc Rock (01:29:57):
It's Paul Allen.

Leo Laporte (01:29:58):
Yeah, it was Paul Allen. Actually. No, he brought Portland. He brought the trailblazers cuz he couldn't get the Mariners or the who's the Seattle NBA team. Now. I can't remember.

Doc Rock (01:30:07):
It used to be super sunny. Super sunny.

Leo Laporte (01:30:10):

Doc Rock (01:30:10):
That's right. They went to Oakland.

Leo Laporte (01:30:12):

Doc Rock (01:30:12):
Right. Not Oakland,

Leo Laporte (01:30:14):
Oklahoma, Oklahoma, Oakland. It's all the same. I it's easily confused. Did you want, oh I can

Denise Howell (01:30:21):
Something. Yes. All I can think of is they're gonna do a reality TV version of Ted lasso.

Leo Laporte (01:30:27):
Yeah. <laugh> so you're right. So come to think of it. That's probably why Apple's interested in

Brian McCullough (01:30:32):
Selling Amazon. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Amazon already does that because they're doing my team right now. Arsenal. They've done it for about five years in a row. Now they follow, they get a team to allow their cameras into the locker rooms and oh,

Leo Laporte (01:30:45):
It's all or nothing. Yes. I love

Brian McCullough (01:30:46):
Their nothing. Exactly.

Leo Laporte (01:30:47):
Yes. They've been doing that with football. Now they're doing with soccer that's

Doc Rock (01:30:50):
So it started with it started with Notre Dame back in day, which is funny. Cuz you mentioned big 10 and everybody's trying to get us to join the big 10 and I don't want that to happen. And then all in nothing was like Manchester city last year. And I'm so glad that they're not doing I'm Manchester United fan. I'm glad they're nowhere near us because

Brian McCullough (01:31:06):
Oh this is not the year for that. No

Doc Rock (01:31:08):

Leo Laporte (01:31:09):

Doc Rock (01:31:09):
Stay away from us. Leave us alone.

Leo Laporte (01:31:11):
If you're, if you want any evidence of how this can change a country's perception of sport, look at how F1 has taken off in the us. Thanks to drive drive, to survive the Netflix show. I'm an, I'm a brand new F1 fan because of that show that you see it like that or you see it like all or nothing. Although nothing is great for was a, is a great series and you suddenly you get it, you see the personalities, you understand what's going on. It's it is the best thing that can happen to a sport. So yeah. So I bet you anything Amazon's gonna buy a soccer team many minute now <laugh> or a league or a whole darn league. Why stop at a team that was the big conversation this week as Amazon buying the Roomba folks, I guess last week. That was the big story. And, and Amazon wait,

Denise Howell (01:31:57):
Roomba soccer,

Doc Rock (01:31:58):
Roomba soccer. Oh my God. Oh, that would be like, oh my God. And then if you put some cats

Leo Laporte (01:32:05):
On top of the

Doc Rock (01:32:05):
Roombas playing soccer, you've got Roomba soccer,

Leo Laporte (01:32:08):
Cat videos.

Doc Rock (01:32:11):
You can't lose. Oh,

Leo Laporte (01:32:13):
Put that on

Doc Rock (01:32:14):
To Roomba. Soccer would just be legit. I love

Leo Laporte (01:32:19):
It. I love it. All right. We're gonna take a break. When we come back, Elon Musk sells more Tesla shares. We haven't done a good Elon story in a while. Have we it's time. <Laugh> it's time. But first worldwide technology and H P E we love these guys. Worldwide tech is at the forefront of innovation, working with clients all over the world to transform their businesses. You know, these days, if you're an enterprise, you need to know about technology. You need to be engaged. You need to see how it can change your business. But to do that, you need a partner and you need a partner who understands business. I think this is really important and not just technologists. WWT understands business, understands your strategy and is always working to make your strategy come alive using technology. So that's the kind of partner you want.

Leo Laporte (01:33:15):
And it all starts for WWT at their ATC, their advanced technology center. It's a research and testing lab used to be the magazines would do this. Now WWTs completely taken over. It started, you know, about 10 years ago with a rack of equipment in one building. It's now in multiple buildings, over half a billion dollars in equipment in the lab, all the latest technologies and WWTs engineers use this to spin up proofs of concept to do pilots. So customers can select the best solutions to test integrations with existing technology. So they're really the experts in cutting edge technology. So it helps cut WWTs evaluation time down from months to weeks now their partners are using it. And this is the biggest change. Now WWT offers the ATC for you for everybody. Anybody's a member of the ATC platform. It's free to join, can get access to hundreds of on demand and schedulable labs like HP's premier storage lab, along with labs representing the newest advances in everything you'd you'd wanna find out about for your business.

Leo Laporte (01:34:23):
Multi-Cloud architecture security. Of course, I'll never forget going to see the ATC. And there was this whole rack, but there were three or four racks in, in, in a separate room in a separate cage, completely separate. I said, what are those? And they said, well, that's, that's where we do our virus testing and our security testing, our exploit testing. And we keep that, you know, air gap from the other ones off in a corner. But, but you know what, that's how committed they are. They really put the money into making this happen that you could study networking, of course, primary and secondary storage of all the storage solutions. They all light up differently. It's really quite beautiful. Data analytics, AI DevOps, they're they're on top of all the latest technology, both hardware, software, operations, management, compliance. They're the experts. And thanks to the ATC.

Leo Laporte (01:35:14):
You can test out products and solutions before you go to market, not just hands on labs, you get access to technical articles, to expert insights, to demonstration videos and white papers, all the tools you need to stay up to date with the latest technology. If, if you are a CIO, if you work in technology at a big company and you're not using the ATC, you're missing out on one of the most important tools you could have. It's a physical lab space. Sure. In St. Louis, we visited a couple of years ago, but it's completely virtual now, which means if you're a member of the ATC platform, you can access it anywhere in the world any day of the year. And while you're there, check out WWTs events and communities. We did a great event for them. It was so much fun. They are doing lots of panels.

Leo Laporte (01:35:59):
They have great communities. So it's, it's, it's a chance to learn about technology trends and hear are the latest research and insights from all the experts. I am so impressed by WWT because it, they understand it's not just selling technology. It it's, it's about empowering their partners. It's about partnership. It's about community and they do it so well, whatever your business need WWT can deliver scalable, tried and tested, tailored solutions for you. They bring strategy and execution together to make this exciting new world happen. To learn more about WWT, the ATC to gain access to all these free resources, very simple Just go there. You can create a free account on the platform and have added WWT, worldwide slash TWiT. It's time to make that new world happen. WWT is the partner you need. Thank you. And we're thrilled to partner with them too. Thank you WWT for supporting this week in tech what is Elon up to? He just sold another big tranch of stock, 7 billion, almost 7 billion worth. So that means he has now sold how much Tesla stock, 32 billion worth of Tesla stock over the last year. Is it, is it because he might, he thinks he might be forced to buy TWiTtter. He, he offered 44 billion.

Brian McCullough (01:37:30):
That's one of the theories

Leo Laporte (01:37:32):
What's the other, the

Brian McCullough (01:37:33):
O the other theory would be that, you know, cuz a lot of people, conspiracy theory, being that he just wants the price to come down. But what if remember, half of it is his money and half of it is all of the you're

Leo Laporte (01:37:47):
Talking about the TWiTtter price. He doesn't want the Tesla price to go down. He wants the TWiTtter price to go down

Brian McCullough (01:37:51):
Twittter price to come down. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:37:53):
That's his fear cuz the Tesla price has been going down cause

Brian McCullough (01:37:56):
He, so what is

Leo Laporte (01:37:57):
Committed Tesla's stock to this.

Brian McCullough (01:37:59):
What if all the banks and everyone else in the consortium that's doing the other half of this deal with him is getting cold feet and cause they're like, we don't wanna be on the hook for this necessarily anymore. Cuz it's overpay. So he's sort of giving himself a cushion that if he can get the price to come down, he could do the whole deal himself with all his money or at least most of his money.

Leo Laporte (01:38:22):
Actually. I've been waiting for Denise to come on to ask about this cuz the trial is coming up October 17th in the Chancery courts in Delaware. What is, what is, how is, is this different somehow from a regular court or is this just a funny name that Delaware uses for their court?

Denise Howell (01:38:39):
It's mostly a funny name that Delaware uses for their court.

Leo Laporte (01:38:43):
<Laugh> they say it's widely recognized as the nation's preeminent forum for the determination of disputes involving the internal affairs of the thousands upon thousands of Delaware corporations, by the way, for no real reason, we are a Delaware LLC.

Denise Howell (01:38:58):
Oh no, there's a real reason.

Leo Laporte (01:39:00):
Oh there is good. Why?

Denise Howell (01:39:01):
Oh yeah, because Delaware has very strategically over the years made itself the place where everyone wants to incorporate its very business advantageous in its laws. So you pay

Leo Laporte (01:39:16):
The, and in fact that's, I've told one of the reasons the Chancery court is part of that is because they're speedy. Yeah. And Elon wanted to slow this down. He said, no, can we put this off? And they said, Nope, October. 

Denise Howell (01:39:31):
Yeah. So I, I think it's, it's, it's, it's a trial court. It's like a superior court in, in any other

Leo Laporte (01:39:36):
State. Is there a jury? No, it's just a, a panel of judges or is there a jury?

Denise Howell (01:39:41):
I believe it's you know, that's a good question. I

Leo Laporte (01:39:45):
Don't see a jury box in this picture. I

Denise Howell (01:39:47):
Don't see a

Leo Laporte (01:39:47):
Jury box in the picture

Denise Howell (01:39:49):
Either, but I don't know. I, I mean, I don't think that, you know, incorporating as a Delaware corporation means that you waive jury trial, if you have disputes. Yeah. so I'm not quite sure, you know, again, this is,

Leo Laporte (01:40:03):
There must be a jury in most cases. Yeah.

Denise Howell (01:40:05):
This is a contract case and there may be questions of fact as to in fact there probably are questions of fact as to what the evidence shows about what the parties did and didn't do and whether the contract was breached. So I don't know if we're gonna see a jury in this or not. I would be surprised if you know, the parties waive a jury to be in front of this court and get more speed. That's something that could be the case.

Leo Laporte (01:40:34):
Elon himself kind of implied that he's worried that this could go against him. He tweeted when he sold the stock in the hopefully unlikely event that TWiTtter forces this deal to close and some equity partners don't come through. Remember I, and I don't even know if the Chancery court can force the equity partners to put up the money. You know, he, that 44 billion is not all Elon's money. Some of it is from Saudi Arabia, Larry Ellison, a variety of equity partners. And I don't think they can be compelled to, they can easily say, yeah, well guess what, Elon, we're not giving you the money now. So he says in the unlikely event, hopefully unlikely event, the TWiTtter forces, the steal to close and some equity partners don't come through. It's important to avoid an emergency sale of Tesla stock. So he's, in other words, he's trying to cash out. He also says, and if I win in court, I'll I'll buy the stock back.

Denise Howell (01:41:28):
It could be in the purchase and sale documents too. That there's a choice of law and venue provision that puts them in this court and has various other restrictions that apply.

Leo Laporte (01:41:39):
Oh, I'm sure that's in the contract. Don't you think? Yeah. I mean, yeah, this was, this was a case of Elon saying I'm gonna buy it in TWiTtter saying, okay first they took it. They said, oh, we're gonna no poison pill. And then they gave in like three seconds later, but I think TWiTtter basically wrote the most advantageous contract. They could Elon basically said as is sight unseen. I don't care.

Brian McCullough (01:42:04):
No, no diligence nor due diligence diligence.

Leo Laporte (01:42:06):
Sure. And so of course TWiTtter said, yeah. And you're gonna be trying the chance record. And not only is there a billion dollar breakup fee, but I think they want the whole amount. Right.

Brian McCullough (01:42:17):
The, the, the, the funny thing is I actually did a segment on the show where I just read the the opening paragraphs of the TWiTtter lawyer's response.

Leo Laporte (01:42:27):
<Laugh> oh, they was so dismissive of Elon weren't it

Brian McCullough (01:42:29):
Is it's they're having so much fun. They're having so much fun.

Leo Laporte (01:42:34):
Oh my God. So he's, I think he's maybe getting some cold feet. He also maybe said he's tweeted. If TWiTtter, all, all TWiTtter has to do is gimme their method of sampling a hundred counts and how they're confirmed to be real. And the deal can proceed on original terms.

Brian McCullough (01:42:55):
It's that's not part of, that's not in the deal. They don't

Leo Laporte (01:42:57):
Have to give him anything,

Brian McCullough (01:42:59):
Anything. And, and so then the other thing is, is when he started to ask for more stuff to find out about these bots, they gave him the whole fire hose. It's not like they withheld anything. They're like, okay, we're gonna give you every single thing that we have and knowing possibly that that's impossible for anyone to actually parse in time. But also number two, like they, like if, if his argument is that there are bots and there's more bots than you've told me. And so there aren't as many real users, as you told me, the other problem is, is that he's on record publicly saying that the reason he wanted to buy TWiTtter was to solve the bot problem. So when you get in, in, into court and you say, I wanna get out of this because I there's all these fake users he's, you know, on stage at Ted telling people that the reason he wants TWiTtter is he wants to fix this and make it better.

Leo Laporte (01:43:55):
I hope there's a Perry Mason moment where <laugh> where TWiTtter's lawyers say Mr. Bus, you know, that your lawyers set us your entire phone log for the last 12 years. And, oh my goodness. I don't think that'll happen, but I'm sure Elon has very, very good lawyers. I, you're a guy you had on that this week in law, a few times, Andrew Torres does a great podcast opening arguments. I'm sure you're familiar with it. And I listen to all of their shows about this whole thing. I think there of the opinion that what this will end up happening is the court will not force him to buy TWiTtter, but will ask for a substantial much more than a billion dollars penalty in effect for, for basically throwing TWiTtter's business into turmoil. Is that possible?

Denise Howell (01:44:48):
Yeah, I think, I think that's likely, I'm also, I've always sort of been of the opinion that I'd be surprised if this stayed in court for too long.

Leo Laporte (01:44:57):
Oh, they may settle. They're gonna get together. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Denise Howell (01:45:01):
Yeah. And we'll never know the terms.

Brian McCullough (01:45:03):
Yeah. Denise, what is, what is the, how common is it for someone to say you signed a contract, I'm gonna force you to honor this contract. And I know that it, it depends on if we're talking about, you know, small potatoes things, but huge, huge things. How often does a court actually say, I don't care. You have a million dollars, you sign a contract for a million dollars. You're gonna pay the million dollars.

Denise Howell (01:45:30):
Oh yeah. If, if this actually goes to trial and they have to be, they have to perform under the terms of the contract. And it's proven that they breach the contract. That's what will happen.

Leo Laporte (01:45:41):
There is a very famous case in Delaware, Chancery court I B P versus Tyson Tyson had which is the largest chicken processor in America had agreed to, I thought we were talking boxy. <Laugh> had agreed to acquire IBP, which is something pork. It's the pork meat, packing firm very much like Elon agreed to buy TWiTtter and then Tyson broke it off. IBP piece, filed a breach of contract suit, much like TWiTtter has, and the court ordered Tyson to go through with a purchase.

Brian McCullough (01:46:20):
And that was even wasn't that around COVID or something. So like they could argue force majo. No. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:46:25):
Yeah, there, there were, it was similar in the sense that Tyson said, well, we hadn't seen the financials and now that we've seen them oh, this is terrible. And then in fact the, the, the judge said, well, no, you, you should have known. And some of the reason it's terrible is because of you <laugh>. So it's not an exact analog and Andrew Torres does a much better job of explaining it than than I do, but it's a fairly famous case. And it is the one example where you could say, yeah, the courts can force you to go ahead with a purchase. They did. They made Tyson buy IDP.

Brian McCullough (01:47:06):
Denise, what if you don't have the money? What if something intervenes in between? And we know that Elon has the money, cuz he has all the money, but can a contract be voided at that point? Because in the intervening time, I don't know. You lost half your whatever.

Denise Howell (01:47:23):
No, not at all. You'd still get a judgment that the party who the judgment favors can try and enforce however they can. It doesn't matter if there's no money there. They can, they can

Leo Laporte (01:47:36):
Go on. You gonna garnish Elon's wages.

Denise Howell (01:47:38):
<Laugh> yeah, they can go on ahead for other assets. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:47:42):
That's which may explain why Elon says I sold all my houses. I don't know he's living on somebody's couch. Apparently

Doc Rock (01:47:49):
The hunt for assets is gonna be the new rendition of hunt for October.

Leo Laporte (01:47:54):
Like <laugh>

Doc Rock (01:47:55):
And a lot, a lot of these guys are, are like learning, you know, it's funny back in the day, Steve was probably one that the most brilliant and I'm sure he wasn't alone, but it's the one that we all know about, of like setting himself up with the dollar salary. It's so hard to like get in trouble when, you know, Hey, I just get paid a buck, you know, and then they'll they'll work around it of course. And try, like you say to go after assets, but I don't know, Elon is just a weird character and it's just what makes it worse? Like if he was more normal acting, I think more people would maybe side with him, but he just does strange things.

Leo Laporte (01:48:29):
I have, you know, I have such mixed feelings about him cuz SpaceX is remarkable. You

Doc Rock (01:48:34):
And it, you and I both

Leo Laporte (01:48:36):
I had a Tesla, I was really impressed with what Elon had done. He didn't kind of remember part of the plan with Tesla was to get rich people, to buy the expensive ones to finance the development of a low cost EV and he had planned to sell a model three, I think for 35,000, you can't get it for less than 46, 47 right now. So he never kind of lived up to that promise. But I think still we wouldn't have the electric vehicle market we have today without Elon and Tesla.

Doc Rock (01:49:07):
There is definitely a thing and I don't know what it is, but again, I hate to keep bringing up severance, but I swear it's on my head right now. There's a thing where people who are well, intentioned innovators start moving up the chain and it's like, they get at a very particular point where the billionaires, which comes in and they go be as crazy Kanye <laugh> and fits in that description, Elon, you know, and that's why there's a whole entire song. I really like the old Kanye <laugh> because he was always eccentric, but he got super weird once he got like dumb, rich, and Elon did the same similar thing. Like he was this great guy for a minute. And then all of a sudden he just hit a level where let me start trying to like buy stuff. And yeah, a toxic wealth is probably the best explanation of

Leo Laporte (01:50:02):
It's the eat. The oligarchs in our chatroom says it's called toxic wealth. I like your hand eat the oligarchs.

Doc Rock (01:50:09):
I mean, I don't want to hate on like capitalism or whatever like that, because it's not really about that. But I, I just watched Luke, I just binge watched it cuz it's really short. And you know, at the end, you know, one of the things that she said, which is funny because they're really trying to add in a little McKenzie and a little Melinda into this character and she says, billionaire shouldn't exist. Like I can kind of a great, yeah. It, it was a well stated point. And then right after she went back to doing something billionaire oriented, which was, you know, they all say that and they all act like they're being altruistic, but most of their altruism is feeding egos. And do you need legal side? Confuses me? The only thing I really, my F I mean, I know stuff about legal stuff, but my favorite term is Frolick and detour. And I don't get to use that one.

Leo Laporte (01:50:59):
Frolick in detour.

Doc Rock (01:51:01):
Yeah. That's my favorite legal term.

Leo Laporte (01:51:03):
What does that mean? Do you know that

Doc Rock (01:51:05):
When, when you're working for a company and you stop acting like an employee to do your own

Leo Laporte (01:51:08):
Thing, <laugh> I'm frolicking. Oh yeah. We have many fr and detours around here. That's a very, that's a very popular, it's a new one on me, doc. <Laugh>

Doc Rock (01:51:18):
Okay. Literally, I don't know what I learned it from one of my lawyer friends, and I thought it was the best. Do you think thing I ever learned,

Leo Laporte (01:51:24):
We need the incentive of possibly becoming a billionaire to get people, to create, to innovate, to make build companies. Is that a necessary incentive? Cause that would be the argument for allowing, I mean, for having billionaires.

Doc Rock (01:51:37):
Yeah. And, and I get, that's why that works, but what happens is imagine, okay, so granted there's boards and there's other things in place, but someone like a single person, especially a person who has shown that there might be something, you know, ants, not at the full picnic to get over to a platform that controls that many people's communication. That's a scary thought. And I think anybody with that much power does get a little, you know, punch drunk. And so they're probably no longer good to single handedly, you know, control a body of people. It almost, it almost end the reason, like how is it that, you know, four or 500 people are in charge of, you know, 390 million of us. It's a, it's a really weird situation. I don't know. I think it's time to rethink this.

Denise Howell (01:52:28):
So, so let me just clarify that Frolick and detour and Chancery courts are about, of the same vintage

Leo Laporte (01:52:34):
18 hundreds, 18 hundreds, baby. Yeah.

Denise Howell (01:52:39):

Leo Laporte (01:52:40):
The phrase originated in Joel versus Morrison. An English case from the 18 hundreds was clarified. Get ready for this, that a master is liable for actions. A servant takes stemming from a master servant relationship where a servant takes a detour while acting in the scope of employment, but is not liable where a servant goes on a frack of his own that exceeds the scope of employment. By the way, there's a great novel called a fr of his own, but that's <laugh> now I know where that term comes from. I had no idea at the time

Doc Rock (01:53:13):
New Fren in the Briar's

Leo Laporte (01:53:15):
I'm Fren on my own here episode, which

Denise Howell (01:53:19):
Anyone's interested. Yeah, no, no doubt. Fr and towards,

Leo Laporte (01:53:23):
Well, William Gaddes is one of my favorite authors. I don't know how well known he is. He wrote a book called Jr. That's hysterical, but then he had a subsequent book called a frolic of his own. And obviously he <laugh> he knew all about Frolick and detour

Denise Howell (01:53:38):
<Laugh> and the de the Delaware Chancery court has thoughtfully provided what they call a short history of the court of Chancery. That is a really, really long explanation of the history of that court since 1792. And it goes back to, to equity courts in jolly old England, as a lot of our Juris

Leo Laporte (01:53:59):
Called common law, baby, it all goes down to common law at some point.

Doc Rock (01:54:02):
Well, and they're the comp the competition for common law. So the thing that I just discovered why you guys were talking about this and they made me think about it. Now, I know why here our community college system, they're all based on chancellors and the stuff that they do to come up with policies or check policies is actually a chancellor.

Leo Laporte (01:54:20):
If you ever, if you ever go, I know this cuz my dad was a professor at brown university. If you ever go to a graduation at one of the old schools and you see the crazy gowns that the professors wear with the floppy hats and the velvet and all this, you realize it's completely a medieval institution. It's, it's just straight outta, you know, the 15th century. Hey,

Denise Howell (01:54:42):
Before we leave Elon, can I toss out my own conspiracy? The, to why he may have sold out all this stock? Yes. May, maybe it's so that he can dim Starlink down so that it does not disturb astronomers and the global population. Have you guys seen Starlink yet?

Leo Laporte (01:55:02):
Oh yeah.

Denise Howell (01:55:03):
The satellite array.

Leo Laporte (01:55:04):
Yeah. My, so a couple maybe last year my trainer says, oh, you won't believe what I saw in the sky last night. I'm sure it's a UFO. And he showed me a video of like 20 lights in a line going through the sky. I said, that's Starlink <laugh>.

Denise Howell (01:55:20):
Oh my God. I saw it for the first time. And, but this will forever be the summer that I saw Starlink in the Wyoming sky, you know, in the, at, at a

Leo Laporte (01:55:30):
Low, it does look like a UFO. Doesn't it look

Denise Howell (01:55:34):
At this, my son. Oh, it's, it's insane when you see it and you don't know what it is.

Leo Laporte (01:55:38):
So when they first launched the satellites you know, they launch how many on a, on a, a rocket John is 20 or 60. I think it is on a, on a rocket. They launch those and then their information coming off of the rocket and then they deploy to their locations. But when you first see them before their deployment to their various locations, it's just a line of satellites that have just come off the, the rocket. And it looks like

Denise Howell (01:56:05):
An getting

Leo Laporte (01:56:06):
Sandy Claus. Yeah. I mean,

Denise Howell (01:56:08):
It's not Sandy Claus.

Leo Laporte (01:56:09):
You could see why my trainer thought I saw UFO for sure. I mean, yeah. You know, what is this?

Denise Howell (01:56:16):
It looks like an UNW DNA helix. When you see it in the sky, you, I mean, you're, if you're watching the video, Leo's got it up. It's clearly not natural. No, <laugh> no,

Leo Laporte (01:56:30):
You might grab your kids, your dog and your spouse and go underground. Cuz the aliens have arrived. This is a, this is a video 4k video from viral video lab on YouTube. I found it just by searching for a Starlink deployment, but yeah, that's pretty striking. So you saw that to why saw that and they freaked out. People thought it was UFO and

Denise Howell (01:56:51):
It was crazy. Yeah, exactly. The next day after I saw it the news story that I saw cuz we were in sort of the Western United States and apparently hundreds of people in the salt lake city area called 9 1, 1 saying what hell is going on? <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:57:08):
Yeah, yeah. But, but again, this is an, this is an amazing thing that SpaceX is doing. I mean is mindboggling and I get, I was all excited for a long time about Starlink because it's in theory gonna bring high speed internet access to every corner of the world and then you find out, oh yeah, but first you have to spend $600 on a satellite dish and then it's gonna be $110 a month. This is not some egalitarian effort to provide internet for everybody. This is, this is a rich man's internet.

Denise Howell (01:57:42):
Oh yes. Coupled with remote. Right? Like I don't think just anybody can get this internet. I think you have to be

Leo Laporte (01:57:51):
Just, anybody can get it, but you wouldn't, unless you were way up there. Cause you got, you had to it's like Iridium, you know, we talk our, our host from this weekend space, rod pile is up in the Arctic about 15 degrees south of the north pole because NASA goes up there cuz it's the closest thing on earth to Mars. So they test their rovers. He's up there with him. And he calls called the radio show today via Iridium satellite phone. It's a perfect example. You might say, oh wow, Iridium. They're gonna, it's 60 satellites. It's gonna give phone access to every corner of the globe. Yeah. If you've got, you know, a, what was it? I think he said it was like, like a hundred bucks a megabyte or something. I mean, if you have a huge amount of money, this is great. Starlink is not designed. Maybe down the road. The plan is, oh, and you know, we'll subsidize low cost internet, a access for the third world.

Brian McCullough (01:58:45):
But to, to, to their credit, they've done some good work in Ukraine.

Leo Laporte (01:58:48):
Absolutely. And then, and firefighters in in the us and earthquake survivors I think was in Haiti. So yes.

Denise Howell (01:58:57):
So the place I was staying, where I, when I saw Starlink was actually a customer and I think they're in their beta program. So I think they probably get a break on the price.

Leo Laporte (01:59:08):
I, for some reason I got a hundred bucks. I got my Starlink deposit back. I didn't ask for it back, but I gave it back to me. I think that was maybe Elon's message that you are never getting Starlink buddy <laugh> yeah,

Denise Howell (01:59:19):
Probably. So

Leo Laporte (01:59:21):
You dream on buddy.

Doc Rock (01:59:23):
So, so now Leo, Elon and Tim get together and talk about not inviting Leo to

Leo Laporte (01:59:27):
Stuff. Yeah. I can't go to apple events. I can't get to Elon Starling. I wanted it. I thought because imagine if you had a little box, you could carry around with you wherever you were and you could do these shows from anywhere you were. And that was, to me, that was again the promise of that. And I'd be willing to pay 110 bucks a month

Doc Rock (01:59:43):
For that. I got one of those boxes right

Leo Laporte (01:59:45):
Here. You have a star

Doc Rock (01:59:46):
Link Starlink. No, no. I have a Yolo box. I just slap in my mobile chip when I need it.

Leo Laporte (01:59:50):
Oh, there you go. Maybe that's what I should do.

Denise Howell (01:59:53):
The, the place I was staying actually had Starlink as their internet provider. How was it? Fact? We, my son and I ran in to the proprietors panicked at night, going we're being invaded. And they said, no, that's our internet provider. <Laugh>

Doc Rock (02:00:07):

Leo Laporte (02:00:08):
That's great.

Denise Howell (02:00:09):
Yeah. And it was good. I was able to FaceTime my mom from the middle of nowhere and it was great quality. So I mean they had a dish, not a box. They had a dish that looked like a direct TV

Doc Rock (02:00:21):
Dish. Yeah. It's a, it's a little box. My, the,

Leo Laporte (02:00:24):
I meant that the box would hold the dish. Yeah, it's a dish. Yeah.

Doc Rock (02:00:27):
Okay. They, they do they have a beach house somewhere in mass, I think Salisbury dish. And they use the Starlink to, to do the live stream to the E cam community once a month to tell 'em like what they're working on and it's, it works amazingly. I was originally worried that it would crap out in the middle of the show, but it seems to work. And I have another customer that's in England in like a giant sheep farm and he uses it and it's pretty

Leo Laporte (02:00:52):
Flawless. I guess this would be the point of the show where we do mention that Starlink ground stations have been successfully hacked with a $25 box <laugh> that you could buy. 

Denise Howell (02:01:05):
Just what does that mean?

Leo Laporte (02:01:07):
Belgian you

Denise Howell (02:01:07):
Mean anybody? Anybody can get Starlink if they do the hack. I,

Leo Laporte (02:01:11):
I don't let me read it. This, you know, we're gonna see a lot of these stories back to have a ton of them today from black hat DEFCON. This is the time of year where all of a sudden you find out everything, you know, has been hacked, Belgian security researcher, Leonard ERs, who is very well known, has gotten his own code running on the dishy MC dish face, satellite terminals. And you can too, the <laugh> the

Doc Rock (02:01:33):
Heck is MC

Leo Laporte (02:01:34):
Dishy MC dish face. That's what they call 'em. It's a mod chip with an RP 20, 40 and a MOS vet that crowbars the power rails. So, you know, anybody could do this Browning out the main CPU exactly. When it's verifying the firmware's validity, bypassing that protection. Oh, that's clever entirely. Leonard had previously figured out how to dump the Starling firmware direct from the em M S C and then upload it back. So now the circle of ownership is closed. There was a talk at Def con of course about $25 in parts. Leonard has submitted his attack to Starlink and he says they took some precautions to make the glitching harder. But it's not like they can't really disable it. It's almost impossible to shield a device against an attacker who has it on the bench. So yeah, you can't just go around and drive around town and hack people's Starlink, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta get access to it.

Leo Laporte (02:02:33):
Elon's in a little bit more trouble with the California department of motor vehicles. They are accusing Tesla of deceptive practices in marketing autopilot and full self driving. The penalties could be as bad as losing the ability to sell Teslas in the U in the California. Tesla has not yet as so far as I know, responded to these allegations, they, I think they were supposed to by Friday, but I haven't seen the story that they have. So I, you know, I don't know what the upshot of this is. Maybe they're gonna ask Tesla to put an asterisk next to autopilot and full self-driving. Maybe they'll ask 'em to change the name. And I think, I agree with them that saying it's full self driving or calling it autopilot is risky. It gives some people the feeling that they can get in the back seat and take a nap, which they cannot nothing to say here, move

Doc Rock (02:03:34):
Along. No, I'm just thinking like the self-driving thing just scares me. I've always thought it'd be cool. One of the things we were talking about, you know, studying abroad when I lived in Japan, I lived in Tokyo city proper, but I went to school just outside in the country. So I had like an hour and a half everyday train ride. And the one dope part about high speed rail is I spent all of that time doing work. Like I would actually do my homework instead. Cause I would be part of isn't that awesome. And it's awesome. So

Leo Laporte (02:04:01):
Yeah, you're on a train. You don't have to, you don't have to drive

Doc Rock (02:04:04):
Left that even in Cali, when I was at apple, I Rodee Cal train many a times you can have people do stuff. Love it. And then, so I wish we would get to that point, but the self-driving thing was supposed to be like a stop cap, but it's yeah, it's just too scary. The only thing I wanted to do in self-driving is invent something. So that can project code name, our project. Jesus, take the wheel.

Leo Laporte (02:04:24):
<Laugh> <laugh> you mentioned how much you love severance. Did you go to ComicCon San Diego ComicCon because they, no, I was

Doc Rock (02:04:33):
Apple, apple panel,

Leo Laporte (02:04:34):
Apple TV. Well, they built a set. One of the things Apple's done really well, this is from Justin dot Coplay on YouTube is build physical sets that people can participate in there. You are in the boardroom at severance. I'm sure there's a speaker that says wake up and I think you can actually wander around there's there's the psychotherapy unit. Oh,

Doc Rock (02:04:59):
That is so

Leo Laporte (02:05:00):
Cool. When we need love to wander around in this

Doc Rock (02:05:04):
Dude, your next idea for a wall is send us pictures of your mouths and let's build a TWiT mouth wall.

Leo Laporte (02:05:09):
Oh, love

Doc Rock (02:05:10):
It. I want, I wanna buy one of those computers. Somebody on se you figure that bad boy out. I would buy one

Leo Laporte (02:05:16):
Of them. So the story is the producers. They wanted to make it realistic. These are real computers. They used old computer parts to assemble something that looks kind of like a Lisa. I mean, it definitely looks vintage, but it actually is a real computer. It can actually do the, the thing they do on the show. <Laugh> oh Lord. Welcome to your pod, man.

Doc Rock (02:05:37):
You don't, you're not built enough to be Mila chick

Leo Laporte (02:05:39):

Doc Rock (02:05:39):
Hey, is the baby Luco on the desk in oage to, you know, the Pixar game.

Leo Laporte (02:05:45):
You're gonna have to explain. Oh, the Luxo lamp here. Yeah. You think that that is a, is a Pixar Luxo lamp. Maybe, maybe that's a good question. Anyway. I wish I had gone to ComicCon cuz this would've been fun,

Doc Rock (02:05:56):
Dude. I love the fact that, you know, Dylan has his caricature pin to his desk. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:06:02):
That's pretty funny. Yeah. So great. You obviously are a stand a, a severance stand, not just a

Doc Rock (02:06:10):
Friend, you know what it is for me, any person, and this has been still a, the mine of Ben. Stillers so brilliant. And I love it when there's these guys that we grew up with, that everybody thought they were just these random comedians and kind of goofy. And you look at the creativity that's in the gym care or the the Ben Stiller that goes far deeper than just them being a slap state comedy person. The small stuff that they put in that connects it all together is so brilliant.

Leo Laporte (02:06:38):
Stiller did say something interesting at that Comic-Con panel. He said, we don't get viewer information from apple. And I thought this could be problematic for apple. You know, people who produce shows often wanna know what, how many people watch did one person, but they thousand, but apple

Brian McCullough (02:06:56):
People don't get it from Netflix either.

Leo Laporte (02:06:57):
No stream does. Except I don't buy that. Apple knows. Right. Netflix knows they they've gotta have, they've gotta, they've gotta be saying, look, you can't admit that you know this, but oh, I'm just gonna her, right.

Brian McCullough (02:07:16):
It's it's, it's, it's a different Hollywood where because everything's internal like why give up that leverage? Right? So the only thing. Yeah, but

Leo Laporte (02:07:27):
A producer reasonably needs

Brian McCullough (02:07:29):
Ben still hundred.

Leo Laporte (02:07:30):
He wants to know because

Brian McCullough (02:07:31):
He wants to, people watched me on that. If you're not only that, but think of Leo, like if you, as a producer knew, well, this was our most popular episode. This is what people, people really connected to this character. Like if you're in a black box, it's harder to respond to how the audience has responded to you. Right, right,

Doc Rock (02:07:49):
Right. What here's here's the different side of it though. Let me be doc advocate for a second. If you look at YouTube I'm guess I'm the content creator, right? If you look at what the content creators are telling you, we're telling you, oh, interesting. You don't have to get the exact numbers from it. Just watch us. We tell you. And I think 14 Emmy's kind of gives you a, a good idea how you're doing player

Leo Laporte (02:08:12):
<Laugh> yeah, yeah. I guess, I mean, look, so if you're a content creator, if you're a Ben Stiller or Martin Scorsese, you have a lot of choices. Now, people throwing money at you saying, please produce something for our streaming channel. And then so among it's not just money, I'm sure it's also, oh, we can give you prestige or we'll push you for nominations for Oscars or Emmys or, you know, but I think a missing point of it that, that the networks, the television networks can offer is we'll tell you how many people saw this episode.

Doc Rock (02:08:48):
That's so here's a, here's a problem that I'll fight with. And I think you will understand this because you do this as a business. My thing is try to teach my creators, do not get sucked into staring at the analytics and start making kneejerk reactions based off the analytics. Your only true algorithm is your actual audience. So pay attention to your audience. Listen to what they're telling you. When YouTube starts to show you these weird blips in your ad revenue, because you know, company stops spending during July because they know everybody's on vacation, don't freak out and think that means that your content isn't being hit. And so the problem with algorithms is you make false adjustments and in turn, do stupid things that alienate your audience. But if you listen to your audience, they will always guide you in a direction that they want you to go. So I tried to tell people, stop staring at the algorithms. And so yeah, somebody mentioned that awards don't equal viewers, but paying attention to what the viewers are actually telling you, listen to the podcast, setting up Q and a, that can be live stream on TWiTtter or YouTube or whatever with your audience doing a show like this, where you have your whole audience in the chat telling you what to do. That's you're not more, you're more valuable than numbers numbers, but that's how way more valuable than

Leo Laporte (02:10:00):
That's how YouTube and broadcast are different than broadcast television. Correct? Right. Broadcasters have no, they don't have a two-way. I remember I some years ago before he passed, it was actually, he had just announced he was retiring. I taught reaches Philbin and how to tweet on how to TWiTtter. There's actually a YouTube video of it. And so he tweeted, I just announced my retirement today on the show. And he started getting all these responses back and he was so excited because here's a guy who'd been 50 years in broadcasting. He never got, got that kind of feedback. He called his wife. He said, joy, joy, go look on TWiTtter. They're talking to me by the way, he quit TWiTtter within a week because he couldn't ha <laugh>. He couldn't handle it. He, you know, these guys are not used to that feedback, but I gotta tell you if you're a television producer, you wanna know, well, how many people watch show one?

Leo Laporte (02:10:53):
How many people watch show 10? Did it go up? Did it go down? That's valuable information and apple, I, I cannot believe that apple is not telling Ben Stiller how severance is doing. He says, they give us charts with no BA you know, no zero, you know, what's up, it's down. They don't give us the numbers. That's very aply. I, I think that's, if in the long run, that's not gonna work for apple. They producers want to know how many people saw this show. I really do. And I might be wrong. Maybe not. All right, we're gonna take a quick break. I've kept you so long. I don't, I, we got a couple more things to do. I do wanna talk about some of the silliest things that happened this week, but first a word from a great sponsor. Click up. Imagine if you could get an extra day every week, you know, instead of five day work, week, four days, what would that be worse to you?

Leo Laporte (02:11:46):
What would you do with a, would you binge severance? <Laugh> I mean, I know that's a doc would do cook healthy meals, work out more bright, a novel. You could take advantage of that extra day a week. Well, that's what click up gives you the productivity platform that is so effective. It will save you one day, a, a work one day of work a week, one day of work a week. And that's guaranteed. I know you're you don't believe me, but it's guaranteed click up was started because they realized productivity was broken. There were too many tools to keep track of too many things. All the ecosystems are siloed. Separate didn't talk to another one. Another. They knew there had to be a better way to get through the daily hustle. So they created click up the one tool. It's a, I love it.

Leo Laporte (02:12:35):
When a, when a a startup scratches their own itch, they solved their own problem. And that's why it works so well. It's the one tool that houses all your tasks, your projects, your docs, your goals, your spreadsheets, you're more built for teams from a single person. Click up will help you to a thousand plus people it's packed with features and customization options that no other productivity tool has. So you can tailor to work exactly how you do, whether you're in project management or engineering or sales or marketing or HR click up has easy use solutions that create a more efficient work environment. I think that's a nice kind of balancing act. Yes, it's highly customizable, but from day one, you'll get started with a setup that is tuned for the kind of work you do. And then you can refine it if you want. This explains a lot.

Leo Laporte (02:13:25):
800,000 highly productive teams are using click up 800,000. That's huge success. I'm gonna get you 15% off. Click ups, massive unlimited plan, and not just for the first month, but the whole first year. That means you're gonna start reclaiming time for less than five bucks a month. Sign up today, click Please use the offer code TWiT. So they know you saw it here, but hurry, this offer ends soon. If you wanna know more, read some of the testimonials on the click up website, C L I C K Imagine getting an extra day every week. That's what productivity can do for you. Click again, 15% off, but you gotta use the offer code. Thank you. Click up for supporting our show. I'm excited about this. I may be the only one you were talking about how the kids today, like the old music. I like the old games. Did you ever hear of you? Probably not old enough. Did you any of you? Oh,

Brian McCullough (02:14:23):
Wait. Oh yes. Oh yes.

Doc Rock (02:14:25):
I lived it. I first thing, yes, I believe ever bought with my first computer. Yes. You

Leo Laporte (02:14:29):
Know what? I'm talking about

Doc Rock (02:14:30):
Hundred percent. I was waiting for this. And we were talking about this on a live stream like a month ago. And the fact that this is coming real now, when I saw the story blew my mind. I'm like back flips di

Brian McCullough (02:14:42):
Ditto, ditto.

Leo Laporte (02:14:44):
I, I can't believe you're talking about the same story. I am

Doc Rock (02:14:47):
A hundred percent Kings quest. Kevin

Brian McCullough (02:14:49):
Roberta are back.

Leo Laporte (02:14:50):
You are okay. You are, but it's not King's quest. So Canada, Roberta Williams, they the original one, they sold Sierra online. But they brought you King's quest and space quest at quest for glory. They were the original graphic adventures. Remember, but in the old days before graphic adventures, there were text adventures. You might remember if you're old Zork and you know, planet fall and those Infocom adventures. But even before that, I used to play it on a dialup modem. <Laugh> dialing into CompuServe. There was a game by will, K Crowder and Don woods called colossal cave adventure. And this was the first text adventure, an amazing adventure game. I loved it. So Ken Roberta have got together and they've made a graphic version of colossal cave. Get your plug and your X, Y, Z, Z Y. Ready? This is, this is very exciting. This was a great game. It's more than 50 years old. You can still play if you search for colossal cave online, there's, there's, you know, simulators online

Brian McCullough (02:16:00):
And you can apparently do it in VR. They they're reporting it to the

Leo Laporte (02:16:04):
Quest. Oh, I may actually have to get a quest just to do this. This comes from the geeks guy to the galaxy podcast. So I should give them credit because they got Ken Roberta on and then they got them to tell us about this. Here it comes now, did they say when they're, I can't believe you guys remember colossal cave. I'm stunned,

Brian McCullough (02:16:26):
But it's also, I remember, I remember King's quest

Leo Laporte (02:16:29):
King's quest for

Doc Rock (02:16:30):
Sure. King's quest.

Brian McCullough (02:16:31):
Yeah, but Leo, this is also like, I don't know a, a famous movie director, an AUR coming back after not making a movie for 25 years. That's also the big story here.

Leo Laporte (02:16:41):
That's also the story. Ken Roberta coming back. Yeah. So Ken colossal cave was released in 1976. Ken Roberta assembled a team of almost 30 artists and programmers to do a graphical version of this classic text adventure. Roberta on the podcast said none of them really knew what colossal cave was. Yeah. 1976. They weren't even born. We've had to educate them. All I have to say, she said is that as, as we've worked with them on this game in various ways, programmers, animators artists they've come to have such respect for this game. And I've been told many times I had no idea this game was this good and this interesting, and this deep and complex, I am the same age as Ken Roberta. I am so thrilled that they're bringing this back. That is exciting. Episode 5, 23 of geeks guide to the galaxy. If you want to hear the, the full interview it's wired, magazine's gaming podcast. I, I think this is such good news. I'm so glad. I'm kind of thrilled that you guys are excited about this.

Doc Rock (02:17:38):
Oh man, this is so good. I actually, did you play

Leo Laporte (02:17:41):
Kings quest first at why?

Doc Rock (02:17:43):
Well, no, actually I think my first one was mystery house or mysteries. Yeah. Science, theater, whatever. Heck it was called. Yeah. And then King's quest. And of course the other one that I, I was just telling my group, this we're talking about, this is I would love for our low to bring back leisure, Leo leisure

Leo Laporte (02:18:02):
Suit. Larry.

Brian McCullough (02:18:03):

Doc Rock (02:18:03):

Brian McCullough (02:18:03):
My God. But let's do let's make it leisure suit Leo.

Leo Laporte (02:18:06):
Oh please. Oh my God. It would ruin my reputation, which is already right. So

Doc Rock (02:18:11):
I guess was so good. It was so well,

Brian McCullough (02:18:12):

Leo Laporte (02:18:13):
I interviewed Al lo many.

Doc Rock (02:18:14):
It was young play character. I doing something wrong. What

Leo Laporte (02:18:17):
A character Allo. It was

Brian McCullough (02:18:18):
Was so wait.

Leo Laporte (02:18:19):

Brian McCullough (02:18:20):
The, the, so the leader suit, Larry games were the first games that as kids, we got pirated versions of because, because

Leo Laporte (02:18:26):
There were sexy. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian McCullough (02:18:27):
And then number two, the hundreds and hundreds of dollars that then my parents discovered when I called in for the Kings quest and space quest tip lines, the one, 900 numbers so that we could beat the game. And then a month later, my dad sits me down and says, why is there a $400 charge on my phone bill? Oh

Leo Laporte (02:18:48):
Lord. Oh, ow.

Doc Rock (02:18:52):
$4. And 88 was a lot of money. I bet

Brian McCullough (02:18:55):
You. And it was 88. You're right.

Doc Rock (02:18:58):
Oh, I

Brian McCullough (02:18:58):
Bet you changes,

Denise Howell (02:18:59):
But people don't now it's just all the kids who are making unauthorized in-app purchases in their,

Brian McCullough (02:19:04):
There was no Reddit to, to explain or YouTube to give us walkthroughs. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:19:09):
All right. Get ready? Because internet archive has leisure suit, Larry. Huh? On their emulator. You can play it from 1987.

Brian McCullough (02:19:22):
Let's in hot tub,

Leo Laporte (02:19:27):
Right? This was the filthiest game in such a stupid way. I don't know. Oh, here we go. Programming by all low. I don't know if the keyboards, I don't know what. So the credits are great.

Doc Rock (02:19:46):
I, I need that ring tone.

Leo Laporte (02:19:48):

Doc Rock (02:19:49):
Just to find the old people around me.

Leo Laporte (02:19:51):
This was cause I handle that a Sierra online game. Oh my God. By the way, $400 and 1988 would be $1,001 and 78 cents today. I had a lot of things taken away from Lord. Thank you, Jason. Hell, our producer for that. Jason looked it up. CA cameo coding by Ken Williams. There you go.

Leo Laporte (02:20:18):
Okay. Let's see the game. Will there be a hot tub? Oh, come on. Is this gonna just play the attracts thing forever? It is. It's playing. Come on. How do I get the game going? There's apparently something I don't, I don't know. I don't know how to do maybe some button. Oh, warning. There you are warning. Yeah. I hit the right button, leisure suit. Larry in the land of the lounge list, just contain some elements of plot, which may not be considered appropriate for some children for some children. How old am I? 60. They were appropriate for 10 year olds. Apparently wait minute. They're gonna ask you questions that you're really 65. Please answer five simple questions.

Doc Rock (02:20:59):
I remember these

Leo Laporte (02:21:00):
Questions. Who's buried in grant. Me too. Tomb grant, tinker land grant and NSF grant. Mrs. Grant. These are nonsense, but I'm gonna answer 'em anyway, correct. <Laugh> if a physician were stranded on a desert island with Bo Derek, does anybody remember Bo Derek? He would probably build a boat. Take two. Aspirins overcharge her. Thank God, Dave. Dave, correct. The first lady

Doc Rock (02:21:28):
To culturally appropriate

Leo Laporte (02:21:29):
Breeds, which is not an American armed force. The army, the Navy, the national guard of the national league D seems to be the answer everywhere here. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> Lee Harvey. Oswald killed Harvey milk. Charles Nelson Riley, John Fitzgeral Kennedy or William Randolph Hurst. Okay. Has nothing to laugh about there, but so far so good. Now for the final question, bourbon street is in whiskey, Indiana, jackass flats, Idaho monopoly <laugh> or new Orleans. I think I know the answer to that. Yeah. I want credit for as a 10 year old passing. These, you got through these. So the idea was, if you were a kid, you wouldn't be able to get through those with

Doc Rock (02:22:07):
No ability to look it up on Google yet either

Leo Laporte (02:22:09):
I wasn't important yet. Oh no, it does not begin hot tub. Not a hot tub. Okay. It begins in, in lefties. I don't know how to, oh, there we go. Here we go. I'm going into Lefty's bar and grill enter. How can you do that? Open door? I don't know. Open door. Okay. So this is actually a text adventure with really crappy graphics. By the way. <Laugh> sit at bar. Do you? Oh, there's no time. There's no time. Sit down. Just

Doc Rock (02:22:45):
Say sit down.

Leo Laporte (02:22:46):
Yeah. You're not close enough. Walk the bar to bar. Just walk there. Okay. Walk, you've played this game.

Doc Rock (02:22:55):
I know. I'm telling you.

Leo Laporte (02:22:56):
Just walk, just walk,

Doc Rock (02:22:58):
Use the arrows, use the arrow keys, dude. Things

Doc Rock (02:23:00):
Like things like the poster on the wall. When, when you're a kid like in, when I'm doing this, I think I'm like

Leo Laporte (02:23:05):
17. That's a sexy

Doc Rock (02:23:07):
Post. You still, I was like, yo, what is this?

Doc Rock (02:23:09):
You know, unheard. Also, isn't this a specific form of graphics that like prodigy had the same sort

Leo Laporte (02:23:14):
Of yeah, yeah, yeah. What do they call that? I've forgotten something. Oh gosh, I can't remember it, but yeah, that was so you could stream this. I mean, this is solo res anyway, enough of leisure suit, Larry

Doc Rock (02:23:27):
<Laugh> Leo. I'm willing to play this with you after the show.

Leo Laporte (02:23:33):
It's I think we could do a play along. This would be huge, right? Put this on TWiTtch. I forgot to, but I should right now do a little promo for some of the things you missed this week on TWiTt. Now you and I could play Alicia suit. Larry, go ahead. Watch. Yeah. So me did it again. Remember their chat bot TA which quickly became racist.

Doc Rock (02:23:53):
No, that was Microsoft. Microsoft.

Leo Laporte (02:23:55):
That was micro.

Doc Rock (02:24:02):
Andrew. Can you pick up some coffee please? To her previously on TWiTtter, all about Android, Google released kind of a marketing campaign this morning called get the message.

Jan (02:24:15):
You know, SMS is a 30 year old technology. It deserves to be replaced by something more modern and something better. And we honestly just want to ask people to help get this through to apple to, you know, to fix this problem.

Paul Thurrott (02:24:31):
Welcome back to hands on windows. In this episode, we're gonna look at some of the basic multitasking features in windows 11,

Leo Laporte (02:24:38):
Tech news weekly.

Doc Rock (02:24:40):
Honestly, this is probably the most important one announcement from yesterday. The Z flip four, which has of last year really became jealous, peeling it off. You're peel off the elephant. Ooh, it's so satisfying. Oh, there we

Leo Laporte (02:24:54):

Doc Rock (02:24:55):
Oh, so jealous. There's some people out there in ASMR land who are just going crazy right now. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:25:01):
We had a good week and I hope you will come back and watch more shows this week. And a reminder to club TWiTt members, you have exclusive access to that hands on windows show brand new from Paul thro. You also have ha exclusive access to club. Twit members have exclusive access to the hands on Macintosh show that mic sergeant's doing our ultimate Linux show. What we've been doing is we launch shows in the club because club members are paying for it before we can get advertisers. So this way you help us launch new shows and then shows like this week in space, which launched in the club then gets launched quite literally into the public space. Once we build up the audience. So this is one of the most important things that club TWiTt does at seven bucks a month, you get ad free versions of all the shows, access to the fabulous discord, where there's always great content going on in conversations.

Leo Laporte (02:25:53):
That's really a social network and then the TWiT plus feed. But that seven bucks a month really helps us also generate new content. We have lots of plans for the future, thanks to our club members. If you're not a member yet TWiT. And I should mention that what we are doing with hands on Mac and hand on hands on windows is shows that our, of broader general interest we're putting those out on YouTube on our TWiTt channel on YouTube. So you can at least get a taste of what the show is like. And so I think there is a hands on windows coming out that his windows shortcuts Micah did a one looking at the brand new Mac OS. So those are available on our YouTube feed as well, just to give you a taste and thanks to all our club members. Did you see this Netflix, speaking of games, Netflix launched games. You remember that according to stats, less, fewer than 1% of Netflix subscribers are playing have, have anybody played any of the Netflix games?

Brian McCullough (02:26:54):
I'm a little confused by that because the daily active user number was 1.7.

Leo Laporte (02:27:00):
Well, that's pretty good million.

Brian McCullough (02:27:01):
Yeah. Yeah. So right. I, I didn't,

Leo Laporte (02:27:05):
That's less, that's less than 1% of 1% 21 million

Brian McCullough (02:27:08):
Customers. So this I, when I framed this story on my show, I said, can someone tell me, is this good or terrible, terrible, terrible. It sounds terrible if it's less than 1%, but if the whole point is that they wanna do new things to keep you inside the app to give value. So you don't feel bad about paying the subscription. If 1.7 million people are playing games on Netflix or good point, like that's every

Leo Laporte (02:27:35):
Day, terrible. No, that's a good you've

Brian McCullough (02:27:37):
Point. Given you've given 1.7 million people, another reason to keep paying the subscription,

Leo Laporte (02:27:42):
Tell me a Netflix show that has more than 1.7 million watch viewers. That's actually a very good point.

Brian McCullough (02:27:49):
And, and listen, I could be wrong because I agree that less than 1% of their user base sounds terrible, but for what they're trying to achieve with going into gaming, it didn't sound terrible to me.

Leo Laporte (02:28:00):
They did spend hundreds of millions of dollars acquiring these gaming companies. But I think, you know what? You make an excellent point. So forget that headline 1.7 million daily active users of anything is pretty darn good.

Brian McCullough (02:28:15):
So these are all

Doc Rock (02:28:16):
Takes time for it to mature, right? Like people need to figure out cuz just people still think that discord is just for gamers and as you and I and other people are starting really thriving, amazing communities. I'm still getting, but isn't discord just for gamers. I don't wanna do that. Right. And it's like, nah, man. So labeling.

Leo Laporte (02:28:36):
Yeah. Denise, what were you guys say? Yeah. They

Denise Howell (02:28:38):
Not only labeling, but like what tech, what platform are these all mobile games that you do on the phone? I'm not gonna sit on my couch and play a game on Netflix on the TV. Am I,

Brian McCullough (02:28:48):
It it's all of the above. And one of the weird things is, is that they're limiting it at least right now to tie-ins to their existing shows. So it's

Leo Laporte (02:28:57):
Like stranger things, the game.

Brian McCullough (02:29:00):
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> which maybe is good because then it, it grows affinity or whatever, but like, so they're not trying to build their own fortnight yet. Right, right. <Laugh> but again, like if, if, if, if the issue is, is they lost subscribers for the first time ever last quarter and they just have to, they're trying to throw anything against the wall to see what sticks in terms of adding more value to keep people subscribing, cuz of all the new competition. I don't know, like even if it was just snake or solitaire, but 1.7 million people a day were in the Netflix app to play snake or solitaire that doesn't hurt them. It's a good

Leo Laporte (02:29:41):

Doc Rock (02:29:42):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of it has to do with education. Okay. So when I've, when I first went to Japan, we were just getting into like the handheld console games, like the was PS PSP and the game boy, DSB the, the second version of the game. Boy, the DS when you open it. And they were very small market here in the us at that particular time when I went to Japan and I'm in a train writing culture and then going to Korea and right after, and another train writing culture, everybody's in there with some small micro thing in their hand doing that. So even the idea of watching TV shows and movies or whatever in your hand seems weird when I was in Japan, manga in your phone as comic books, like just going down, everybody like eight, eight to 80 blank, CRI crazy.

Doc Rock (02:30:31):
Everyone's reading this stuff on their phone. We see so many things from our own lens and we are not anywhere near the biggest market as we saw in the WhatsApp thing a minute ago. Yeah. Like in, in places like China and, and in certain areas in Korea and Japan, the computer is basically the one that fits in your pocket. You know, people are not, they don't have the time to space or the wherewithal to even own a full computer. So we have to start to do that a little bit more like understand there is a global lens to these things. So I can see Netflix gaming growing. But if we're looking at it from the lens of where we sit today, not, you just don't understand it. You're, you're thinking about it from your perspective.

Denise Howell (02:31:13):
Right. Especially if they can tie it into anime series that they have, you know, that would play right into

Leo Laporte (02:31:19):
That audience a hundred percent. How many of you're still play pay for Netflix? Do you still subscribe Denise? Yep. Yep. And you do. Everybody does. And I do. And yet I feel like Netflix, there's not a lot of content I wanna watch on Netflix.

Brian McCullough (02:31:33):
It's the least used of the services that I pay for.

Leo Laporte (02:31:36):
How long can that go on before people go? Yeah, I guess this is the one I'm gonna drop. Especially since it's the most

Brian McCullough (02:31:41):
Expensive one. Leo, listen, how many people are still paying for AOL email on dialup? Like there's, A's

Leo Laporte (02:31:47):
Everybody inertia to my radio show is paying for AOL. Well,

Brian McCullough (02:31:51):
There's a certain inertia too. Yeah. Subscribing the things. Yeah.

Doc Rock (02:31:56):
Yeah. And then unsubscribing two. Here's another one that,

Leo Laporte (02:31:59):
But I feel like in the long run it's gonna hurt that, that, that they what's been missing. They, they were hoping with this. What is it? The gray man, this new movie. Yeah. They were hoping that was gonna be it. It did it. Wasn't it didn't I think stranger things, season three for all the hype and publicity didn't really capture people's attention,

Brian McCullough (02:32:17):
Doc. I meant I want you to go after, but let me, let me, let me step on this real quick, because the long term play for everything, the solution for Netflix's problem is their own IP library. Right? Gotta

Leo Laporte (02:32:30):
Have a winning show. They gotta

Brian McCullough (02:32:31):
Have. If they owned star wars, it wouldn't be a problem. Cuz they'd have a great star wars. That's right. Game to go along with the star wars shows that are coming out or whatever. So this, the long term thing is they are someone's again, smarter than me said this this week they're becoming a media company, which they always were, but they, they got a certain halo by pretending to be a tech company all this time. And doc, I'm sorry to step on you, but

Leo Laporte (02:32:55):
That, but no, the economics of media is what's happening. Yeah.

Doc Rock (02:32:59):
I would back you up and say they have been secretly talking about generating a podcasting network in order to try to pull some of my crew over to their side as a way of taking bigger shows that exist on YouTube.

Brian McCullough (02:33:13):
Because if you got a great show that everyone loves there's this whole ecosystem of everyone geeking out about it and talking about it. So why not have a piece of that action, right, exactly.

Doc Rock (02:33:21):
Yes. Right. So they're trying to do that as well. You know, and what's going to happen is I think they'll eventually get there, but they are in the same position as TV and radio was when we first got to sort of the, the, the end of the tower records era, give the people what they want. And if you're paying attention, stop dumping all your money on these big shows that tank, when they could have went and bought literally 300 really good top level YouTube shows with, with, with million followings. Mm. And they would've been bigger for them than to do that. Right? Like, I'm not gonna say that Leo wants to sell, but if Netflix came in and said, Hey, let's put the TWiTt universe on Netflix. No,

Leo Laporte (02:34:04):
They wouldn't buy me. If they do podcasts, what they're gonna do is fan casts for the shows they already have. Yeah. They'll do a squid game. Fan cast

Doc Rock (02:34:12):

Leo Laporte (02:34:13):
That's because that's what builds audience. That's the smart thing to do.

Brian McCullough (02:34:16):
That's what, that's what I

Doc Rock (02:34:17):
Wanted them. I wanted to ask you what

Brian McCullough (02:34:19):
Spotify did. Spotify did that with ringer. They brought, they bought the ringer, not for the sports content, but for all of the pop culture content. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:34:26):
Yeah. I agree. Hundred percent correct.

Doc Rock (02:34:27):
And I wanted to ask this question before we left. Does anybody else get irritated when you're watching a movie or a TV show or something like, you know, stranger things and you see a shark jumping moment that says, oh, they're gonna make a video game out of this part.

Leo Laporte (02:34:42):
<Laugh> no. Is that, have you seen that? Is that the case?

Doc Rock (02:34:46):
Oh yes. All the time. Especially in sci-fi movies or things where they think that might generate, I'm like they're writing a plot of a video game. That's the new, the same time they're making this movie.

Leo Laporte (02:34:56):
That's the, because I always will read a novel and go, oh yeah. This guy wants to sell option an option for a movie. He's writing a movie. But I haven't seen that yet. Seeing a TV show saying, oh yeah, they're writing a video.

Doc Rock (02:35:08):
Then the next time I see one want to at you,

Leo Laporte (02:35:10):
Is there gonna be an dance video game? That's all I wanna know. See,

Doc Rock (02:35:15):
Good one. That's another good one.

Leo Laporte (02:35:16):
Wouldn't that be a good one? Yeah.

Doc Rock (02:35:18):
Yes. And then they could put it on the Amazon version of their gaming platform for prime games. And isn't that? What get a little controller.

Leo Laporte (02:35:25):
Isn't that what Lucas did right though, was instead of creating a, a series of movies, he created a world. His real skill was world building. And the success of the star wars empire is not the nine movies. It is movies, TV shows, video games, action figures. It is all of that. The amusement parks,

Brian McCullough (02:35:47):
The disappointing thing about as someone we all grew up with this stuff. As a kid, there were the three movies and that was it. And then all I wanted was like, well, what about this world? What if we expanded? What if we went over here, away from the Skywalkers? And like, what is it like to be a, a worker on the death star or whatever. And all we've gotten from these idiots since they bought star wars is Skywalker. Skywalker, Skywalker. Yeah. Oh, let's do a new show where we also have to protect a kid. It turns out it's baby Leia. Cuz we had baby like what? Like he created a universe and the promise we thought was, okay, let's go explore the dark corners of this universe or the corner over here. The but they just recycled. I agree the same. Do you

Leo Laporte (02:36:33):
Think that's cuz George sold it. If George had kept it, he would have done that.

Brian McCullough (02:36:39):
I don't think George

Doc Rock (02:36:40):
Is part of it is Disney. Yeah. I think part of it is Disney. It's Disney and I, Brian is Brian is on point 115% at the time George got the start, the storyteller moniker people as a Japanese history, major George stole that go research the a Chicago Shogun. It, it is the Ashikaga sho you can say that

Leo Laporte (02:37:06):
For a lot of things. He there, if this is an archetype, you could say that I don't think George pretends that there was anything, anything particularly original about it. He even talks about the hero with a thousand faces and other, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a classic hero story. Correct. But he put it together in the right way and he, and he did it and I think he was smart about world building and I think he would've done, you know, what's, what's it like to be the the janitor on the death star? I think he would've done that. <Laugh> I think that would've,

Doc Rock (02:37:37):
That would've well see, so what we're seeing now is we're seeing Disney and the people trying to, and Lucas films trying to create MCU after the MCU started. So it's gonna happen. Everything will get par no matter what anyone does, even if it's good, will get parallel to trying to be the NCU. And I'm finding hilarious, cuz DC cannot stream together a DC version of the MCU to save their soul. And they've been trying for 10 years now

Leo Laporte (02:38:06):
I have to do this story. I, you know, because I have gotten at least a hundred emails from people saying, did you see this? Jared mock lived in rural Michigan. He wanted internet access. He asked Comcast, they said, that'll be $50,000 to trench out to your house. So instead he went out and got wholesale fiber, created an ISP for 30 homes. That's by itself, a success story, Washington off fiber properties.

Brian McCullough (02:38:36):
He's got the way I, I lived in Wasaw county for five years. Oh, you know, that's very, that's where Ann Arbor is. So now granted there are rural areas even outside of Ann Arbor. But it's not like this is like, you know, the upper peninsula or something.

Leo Laporte (02:38:51):
It's not, it's not woods, but yes, he has 70 customers. But now here's the best story. The American rescue plan's coronavirus, state and local fiscal recovery funds, a 71 million fund to Wasaw county. Some of that's gonna be dedicated to mock. He's gonna actually get a couple of mill to add more properties. The government says you need to add 417 addresses in freedom, Lima, Lodi. And how do you pronounce that? Ski O SHEO

Brian McCullough (02:39:28):

Leo Laporte (02:39:28):
So of course Sao,

Brian McCullough (02:39:30):
Hey listen, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a Mylon Michigan that is spelled Milan. I know Michi, Michiganders love to,

Leo Laporte (02:39:37):
They like to Mackinaw. So what is is Lima pronounced Lima or Lima?

Leo Laporte (02:39:43):
Lima it's Lima. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lodi in California we say Lodi. Did they say Lodi? Lodi,

Brian McCullough (02:39:48):

Leo Laporte (02:39:48):
Lodi, right. Okay. So the contract from the feds says you have to add 714 locations. He said, this is so much money. I can add another 600 fiber customers to my my, my plan. I think this is so such a great story of local local

Brian McCullough (02:40:08):
Internet. I, I did that one too. And I love it because again, it's just sort of like it's sort of like a DIY project that, that took off and that he didn't because he says in the story, something like, well, they did a request for proposal and I sent in one that took the whole thing and that was probably stupid <laugh> but got me the whole thing. You

Leo Laporte (02:40:29):
Got it. $2.6 million in the federal funds to build out his ISP. So that's a happy story I like to end. That

Doc Rock (02:40:37):
Is a great story. It's funny to when the original sort of thing I saw in this is probably like two or three years old and he was first starting out and all of the comments were very hate comment about, well, he had to be rich cuz he needed to have the money to dig the trenches and all of that. I like people, you guys are missing the point. I mean, first of all, the guys, you know, lives up there and he has a, a boat and you know, he, he obviously wasn't like coming from the complete popper situation, but still can I,

Brian McCullough (02:41:06):
Can I give the, can I give the context doc, what it was is Comcast said we will string the wire to your house. It'll cost you $10,000 or no, he said that if, if they had said $10,000, I would've paid it, but they quoted him $50,000 and that's why he started his ISP. So right. It, some not everyone has $10,000 to string cable to their house. But

Doc Rock (02:41:29):
Yeah, it was just funny. Just watch the hate comments, but I'm like what he did was brilliant. Like let it go. People like you live in a different place and you don't come against it. I got it. But it was just funny. And this is common for, you know, my side of the world, which is YouTube. There's a lot of yap talking in there that, that people don't know what they're talking about, but it is kind of funny that that was what they went for. Not that he actually went up against the multi-trillion dollar industry. That was the better thought. So it was, it was a great story though.

Leo Laporte (02:41:58):
My assignment for tonight to watch Cara's hidden fortress from 1958 and see how close it is to star wars,

Doc Rock (02:42:07):
A hundred percent car. That is exactly true. He's

Leo Laporte (02:42:11):

Doc Rock (02:42:11):
That is smart.

Brian McCullough (02:42:11):
What is what is the Mandalorian but seven samurai. Well, there's not every episode about that, but yeah. Yeah.

Doc Rock (02:42:18):
KWA Mandalorian is

Leo Laporte (02:42:19):
Very serious. It's pretty amazing. I have to say. And so was UNE. Alright, so I had never heard of this, but I'll be watching it. Now I have to figure out where I can see it. Good luck. Oh, HBO. Max has it. All right. The hidden fortress, Denise, how you rock? I thank you so much for being here.

Denise Howell (02:42:39):
Thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful as always.

Leo Laporte (02:42:42):
And you gave us the best news of all that you're gonna bring back the podcast or do a podcast. And I just wish you could tell us when and where, but is it soon?

Denise Howell (02:42:52):
It should be within the next couple months. Yes.

Leo Laporte (02:42:55):
Awesome. And you will come back and tell us all about it, right? I

Denise Howell (02:42:59):
Will. I

Leo Laporte (02:43:00):
Promise. Let, let us plug it like crazy. Of course you can also follow it. Denise, or on the TWiTtter at D Howell. I bet you could find out there as well. The minute that I know there, there are quite a few TWiT listeners who would love to see what you're up to. Will it be a little bit like TWiT or something different or

Denise Howell (02:43:19):
It's gonna be a one on one interview and not a panel show. Awesome. And then I'm coho. I'm co-hosting another show on our forthcoming network. I will tease it by saying that my partner network co-founder is someone who's been on this week in law.

Leo Laporte (02:43:38):
Oh, fascinating.

Denise Howell (02:43:39):
Oh, fascinating. Not a reg, not a regular person on this in law, but has been on

Leo Laporte (02:43:45):
There's, you know,

Brian McCullough (02:43:46):
Rock Barack Obama.

Leo Laporte (02:43:47):
Yeah, of course. There

Denise Howell (02:43:48):
You go.

Leo Laporte (02:43:48):
There you go. That is Brian McCullough, host of the tech meme ride home podcast, a daily dose of tech news. It's kind of a must listen in the tech world and now apparently venture fund venture capitalists. That's pretty awesome.

Brian McCullough (02:44:04):
Yeah. And it's a, it's a tiny rolling fund that anyone can participate in. You don't have to be Harvard endowment to participate in. But the, the right home fund is only there because of the tech meme, right home, 15 minutes every day, wherever podcasts are pervade. And we, and we do the, the, the weekday 15 minute rundown on the weekends. We do the bonus episodes that Leo was talking about. We had Chris Dixon on recently of Andreson Horowitz talking web three. We had Matthew Ball talking the metaverse this weekend we had Noah Smith of Bloomberg the economist columnist where I, all I did was ask him, are we in a recession or not? Oh,

Leo Laporte (02:44:47):
That's a good question. And then he didn't. And then you talked to the rest of the show

Brian McCullough (02:44:51):
And no, he, he didn't gimme an answer for the entire <laugh> 45 minutes. He

Leo Laporte (02:44:56):
Was on. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz no one knows. Yeah. Right. I'll tell you. I have I have made an unofficial rule that I will not have anybody on to talk NFTs or web three on this show. So you can have all of them. All right. They're they're all yours. If you wanna learn about NFTs, what,

Brian McCullough (02:45:10):
What about the metaverse the metaverse thing?

Leo Laporte (02:45:14):
I'm you know, I'm on the fence on that one. I'm on the fence. Okay. That could go either way. I'm on the fence that one's got more promise than web three or Bitcoin or NFTs or anything.

Brian McCullough (02:45:23):
Hey, listen, I'm on the fence of all of these things. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (02:45:25):
That's the right place to be truthfully. Yeah. It can be uncomfortable after a while, but it's the right place to be. Thank you, Brian. Always great to see you. You too, doc rock in the purposeness of his grotto.

Doc Rock (02:45:37):
I am laughing at this from Google wave to millimeter wave comment.

Leo Laporte (02:45:41):
<Laugh> this freaking brilliant. That is a good line.

Doc Rock (02:45:44):
Denise, did you put that in there?

Denise Howell (02:45:46):
I did. I'm putting all my potential show titles in the,

Doc Rock (02:45:49):
Oh my goodness. That was, that

Leo Laporte (02:45:51):
Was, I like Roomba soccer, which you also came up with. I like that doc tell us where I can find more doc rock.

Doc Rock (02:46:02):
I'm pretty much all over the inverse at doc rock. I'm also the community manager at E cam. So anytime you see some tutorial or show that we put together, I either recorded, edited, started it or something of that nature. I spend a lot of time recording stuff for us and yeah. Do wanna take a shot time to give a shout out to Ken and Glen, our founders? Not just because they're my bosses, but they're really my friends. They're really great guys. And believe it or not many Mac users use stuff that they invented that they might not know like protopia or Skype call recorder or some of the other.

Leo Laporte (02:46:38):
Oh yeah. I remember

Doc Rock (02:46:38):
That stuff they made long before they made Che live. I slid in the door late. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (02:46:42):
Will you give my love to Gloria? Do you get to talk to her ever?

Doc Rock (02:46:45):
Oh yes. Talk to her pretty much all the time. She is so hilarious. She's super funny. She's doing some big stuff now herself. I think I swear to you, I think she had a lot of do with convincing Renee to do what he's doing right now. Cuz they, the, the three of us talk, you know, back and forth a lot and yeah, I'm pretty sure that she convinced him to do it. Good.

Leo Laporte (02:47:05):
Gloria RII AKA Callie Lewis, Callie Lewis, a long time friend of the show. And I, you know, I, I I'm so glad that she's been doing a lot of stuff for E cam M I C and her own you know, company, which is teaching people how to stream.

Doc Rock (02:47:19):
Yep, yep. Live streaming process. She's doing really, really well kind of a but yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is so much fun. Like I absolutely en enjoy coming there to hang out with you and like yeah,

Leo Laporte (02:47:29):
Always a pleasure. And you know, just as we say at the beginning, Aloha, we can now say at the end, Aloha to doc rock and to our grid friends, Denise Howell and Brian McCullough. And to all of you, we do TWiT every Sunday around about 2:00 PM, Pacific 5:00 PM, Eastern 2100 UTC. Actually we, you know, theoretically, we could start at two, it's usually more like two 30, but I'll tell you what you don't wanna miss the pre-show. So tune in audio or video live, do If you can't be here at 2100 UTC, you can always get it on demand. At our website,, you can get it on YouTube. There's a TWiTt channel. This we tech for just the, this weekend tech show channel effect, all our shows have their own channel or subscribe in your favorite podcast player. That would be probably the best way to get it. Thank you for being here. I think we have to say by now we must be the longest running tech podcast in existence. Now in our 18th guarantee year, it's gotta be right

Doc Rock (02:48:29):

Leo Laporte (02:48:31):
Thank you for being here all those years and we'll see you next time. Meanwhile, another TWiT is in the can!

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