MacBreak Weekly Episode 885 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy, Alex, Jason, they're all here as we get ready for the Big Apple event next week. Apple's going kicking and screaming into the world of Type C, according to Mark Gurman. But is it a real story or just a made-up one? We'll also talk about big price hikes possible for the iPhone 15. And Apple says we're really not that big in Europe. Really, it's all coming up next on MacBreak

Podcasts you love. From people you trust. This. Is TWIT. This is MacBreak Weekly Episode 885, recorded Tuesday, september 5th 2023. 30 inches of gooseneck. This episode of MacBreak Weekly is brought to you by Melissa. More than 10,000 clients worldwide rely on Melissa for full spectrum data quality and ID verification software. Make sure your customer contact data is up to date.

Get started today with 1,000 records cleaned for free at And by DeleteMe. Reclaim your privacy by removing personal data from online sources. Protect yourself and reduce the risk of fraud, spam, cybersecurity threats and more, by visiting and don't forget to use the code TWIT for 20% off and by ZocDoc, the free app where you can find and book appointments online with thousands of top-rated, patient-reviewed physicians and specialists. Filters specifically for ones who take your insurance are located near you and treat almost any condition. Go to download the ZocDoc app for free. It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show where we study, observe, dissect, disseminate and ruminate on the news from Apple, of which there's a little bit, but really it's all about next week. Jason Snell from SixColorscom, you were sort of saying this is the calm before the storm.

0:02:13 - Jason Snell
Yeah, trying to pace myself, just to you know, get some protein hydrate dehydrate. Don't do too much, Don't pull any muscles, Just like. Get ready for the big. All the eight hours every night. Get plenty of sleep.

0:02:25 - Jason Snell
Do all those things because you know, starting next week everything gets pretty wild.

0:02:29 - Leo Laporte

0:02:30 - Jason Snell
Which is great. It's why we're here, but still so trying to keep it together this week and not do too much.

0:02:36 - Leo Laporte
Andy Ihnakto, what are you doing to prepare for September 12th?

0:02:42 - Andy Ihnakto
Mostly clearing the decks for like two days beforehand to make sure that I don't have anything else to do on that day. Yeah, it's always weird, because I'm lucky that I'm not working for one of these news sites where it's like you have to post 30 seconds after something comes out of the stream, but nonetheless it's like here's what I'm going to have, there's what I'm going to be doing during the live stream, here's what I want to prepare, to be ready to post like immediately after the live stream. And then I need to start like lining up the people that I want to talk to to maybe explain things that confused me about the live stream. And then I'm on like GBA. Fortunately I'm on GBA, it's like two or three days after that, so I can be three or three days smarter than I was on Tuesday.

0:03:28 - Leo Laporte
I am trying to figure out what color sheet to bring for the green screen because I'm going to be doing the show from next week from my mom's house, which is kind of messy, and I think I think I have to go in her long, just used office because that's where the ethernet will be Short tip of the field goes a long way.

Yeah, look at that, the pilot I'm going to bring the OBS bought camera. I don't. I know I should have bought the other one, but I got that one and good microphone and just cross my fingers. You know what is missing and all three of you figured this out. By the way, that's Alex Lindsey who is the king of this kind of thing is lighting. I can't carry a bunch of like fixtures with me.

0:04:14 - Alex Lindsay
You know, I use those little nan lights, the six C's, the Pavot tube. Yeah, how portable are those? Super portable. They're like foot long and about and then they're like a little circle Okay, two inches and dynamite. So I get a couple of these. How many do I need? I carry a carry four of them, but we really only need two.

0:04:37 - Leo Laporte
I'm trying to do this in a carry on, you understand. I'm also burdened with eight pounds of cheese candy for my carry on my after a bit.

0:04:46 - Alex Lindsay
My carry on is I have a carry on dedicated just to my little. Yeah, that's what I thought. Yeah, no, it's got all the little bits and pieces, but it's got a switcher in us.

0:04:54 - Leo Laporte
I'm not bringing a switcher because we'll switch it here. I'm just going to zoom in like you guys, I'll be like. I'll be like you, the unwashed masses out there in the real world.

0:05:04 - Jason Snell
Finally, you're going to. Now you know what it's like.

0:05:06 - Leo Laporte
Now you know what it's like I do this once every 10 years just to remind myself how it is for people.

0:05:12 - Jason Snell
What I really. I'm going to be in Cupertino that day, obviously, but I wish it was a day that I could just come up to Petaluma, because I could just stage an insurrection and you could take over. Make this incomparable noise. I'll be, like getting you back in your box. Leo, back in your box.

0:05:25 - Leo Laporte
You know I wouldn't resist to be honest with you. I'd go Okay.

0:05:29 - Jason Snell
I'll keep that in mind.

0:05:31 - Leo Laporte
Okay, if you insist, it's a cherry so comfortable once you're sitting here.

0:05:36 - Andy Ihnakto
Here's the keys to this.

0:05:37 - Leo Laporte
No, it's not because it's broken in. Shall we say. How many years, john, have I been sitting in this? We were. This is from the brick house, right? So it's more than 10, 13 years and it's feeling it. These chairs were not meant to be sad, and for more than five. All right, enough foolishness. September 12th is the day. 10am Pacific time, 1pm Eastern time. We will be streaming here live, as many will, I know. Are you going to do your office hours thing that you do? It's kind of fun, cause it. So what we do is it'll be Micah and me sitting and you know, watching the keynote with you and talking about it. But you guys, it's almost like a group activity.

0:06:21 - Alex Lindsay
It's like a usually between a hundred and 150 of us, wow, jumped into what we call after hours and it's like the overflow room for the Apple event. It is a big overflow room where you're allowed to talk. So what happens is that you you hear the sound of the sound of the zoom room in general and, like you know, you're not allowed to talk. So what happens is is that you hear a couple of us talking about what we're seeing, and it's so. We're watching it. We don't watch it, we don't stream it into zoom, we just listen to it on whatever device we all have. So our sync is a little off. But outside of that, we all just use the second ear. Experience quote unquote is the zoom and we all sit there and just talk about what is being released. But we also talk about like oh, I see that I think they're using green screen there and that you could never put more than just the products themselves. It's usually how they do it Usually and whatever Craig's big move will be, that has all the effects.

0:07:14 - Leo Laporte
He's got to now. Right, he's got two things he has to do Talk about his crack team and do some dad jokes. And so one was him running in his hair, and what was it? What was last time he played guitar on the last?

0:07:28 - Alex Lindsay
one. He played guitar. He had like an eight head which he can do Like that's. The funny thing is that he actually can play the guitar. So it was that made it funnier, but yeah, so we don't know what's going to happen. Those are the last two, I think Very funny.

0:07:43 - Leo Laporte
Apple, apparently, is streaming a countdown. Let me just see. I don't see a. I don't see a streaming countdown. Is this it? Yeah, is it there? It is, isn't that funny? In my memory there were seven arms. I just a lot is the word. You think a cheap trick, many, yeah, I'm thinking a cheap trick. Yeah, so that we'll be looking forward to that. Making a note, put that on your bingo card. Craig Federighi crazy stuff, dad jokes, crack team, we're going to see an iPhone 12, a 15, rather Pretty sure of that. Yeah, yeah, it's probably, at this point I think it's safe to say type C. Although Mark, mark Gurman, there he is, here he comes with the hair. Six billion dollar man. He's running his fingers through it.

0:08:41 - Andy Ihnakto
He needs to be carrying your sweatshimmer.

0:08:44 - Leo Laporte
Thor Mark Gurman says Apple's going kicking and screaming to type C. They are only doing it. Well, here's his headline from the his Bloomberg newsletter. Apple is set to embrace an iPhone charger. It didn't want.

0:09:01 - Andy Ihnakto
I thought that was super interesting because I I imagine that, okay, they're going to have to, they're putting type C in everything they're it's going to come to the iPhone at some point. His newsletter story is that they plan to simply wait out lightning for next two, three, four years, until they're ready to release a completely portless phone, which has been rumored for a long time, and A it would be a. It would be a stupid idea if it weren't for Apple, because they can couch a stupid idea in terms of courage and because we we were wearing where the puck is going to be, not where the puck actually is. But I still, I mean, I know I'm talking about something that hasn't been announced and, if it happens, won't happen for another three or four years, but I boy, I'm a hard sell on the idea of this being in any way a move that's going to improve anything for users.

0:09:53 - Leo Laporte
That's like it seems like a little petulant of Apple to say that Germans Germans phrasing is a little weird. The company has an ironclad rule when it's introducing a new product or dealing with the media, it always wants to operate from a position of strength.

0:10:10 - Jason Snell
No kidding, that's called marketing, that's PR, good yeah.

I don't, I don't love this report, I I'm deeply skeptical of it. Actually, I'm sure there are people inside Apple who don't like the fact that this was mandated, and I know that Mark has reported before about this dream that Apple has of the portless iPhone, which I've always thought was kind of BS or at the very least, a kind of fantasy that would be eventually down the road a long time. I, in fact and I don't have, I mean, I don't have a sources I just am really skeptical that when he refers to Apple strategy monolithically, I don't believe it. I I'm sure people were against it or were arguing just to hold out for this magical future where there was a portless iPhone, which I'm very skeptical of. But I also, I mean, my feeling is, if it hadn't gone so badly 11 years ago, this would have happened way sooner 11 years ago was when lightning lightning came out by the lightning transition, exactly that.

They're like like, no, I don't want to go through that again, I don't want to go through it again and the with this EU thing, they basically are forced to do it.

But I, you know, I just I don't know. I think that Apple does have a dream of going quote unquote, portless, but even then I think it's probably a magnetic connector like MagSafe, with some data pins on it that are actually like a smart connector on an iPad. I'm really skeptical of a completely walled off phone that you can't plug a plug into. So when I hear a story like this that builds on that and then says they're very offended that they had to do this, they were waiting for that, that promised land in the future, it's like I don't. I don't buy it. I think it's more likely that they would have gone sooner if they didn't feel like they know what's coming right, which is there's going to be. All those stories about oh, apple is ruined just once you can make money, and they made me change all my cables out and like those stories are coming because they're inevitable.

0:12:00 - Alex Lindsay
But I think it's. I think it's less about them. I don't yeah, I guess I don't really believe that they're cooking and streaming either. I think that they just didn't want to spend any time on it because they know that they're going to get rid of it. So they were kind of like you know why go through a transition that's only going to last three or four years?

If they think that they're going to go down that path and I do agree that most likely anything that had a you know, got rid of the port would probably have data pins or the ability to pass data over that I think the hard part for them is that going from lightning to transfer speeds that you might get through a non port, it's probably pretty equal.

You could probably make that data work. Going through USB-C is harder, you know, because USB-C has such a much, much, much higher, or even if they went to, thunderbolt has just a much higher transfer rate. So you get used to that and I still think that I think that the ultras potentially maybe the only the ultras, but the ultras in the pro maxes would be the ones that would probably always have USB-C and I think they might have been always going that way, because if you're going to start recording pro res, you really need USB-C, like you know, like you can't, you can't keep on building up this idea of pro res or pro res raw or any of those things and still use the kind of connectors we have right now. So I think that there's. I think it was kind of coming either way in that, in that area.

0:13:19 - Andy Ihnakto
I mean, I could. I mean I'm with you, jason, in that I don't think that the if this was a, if this is a real thing that they were ever going to do something where there was absolutely no way to send, to send electrons from an outside source directly inside the thing. There's always going to be something like like Pogo pins, but even that, I think that's just a stupid, arrogant, dogmatic idea. I mean, the thing is like a point I don't know it's going to be fascinating. It's the engineering underneath creating the. An iPhone with no holes on it pales in comparison with the three, four, five years that they're going to need to engineer.

The excuses that they're going to present during the, during the rollout event, about why this is such a great idea and why this is a consumer forward, consumer friendly approach, when actually it's nothing but downside for the, for the consumer. It's like you could. I think the only thing that's obvious is that things oh well, gosh the dust and dust incursion and moisture incursion, it'll, it'll increase the longevity of the phone and say, well, you're already IP68 resistant. What are you going to be like IP70, ip73, ip74, that those things don't exist and it's not like you're saying, oh well, because, because, because we're making this thing so much more durable, congratulations, we're going to make like, if it's, if it gets dunked in water and needs to be fixed, that's covered in Apple care from now on. No, they're not going to do that.

This is, this is their, this is going to be their case, where they made a decision that made the iPhone easier for them to manufacture, that makes it more interesting as a project for them, but once again creates a situation in which there's they're taking a they're they're taking a met means of connection. That always works. It's a. You take a cable here, you plug it into there, electrons go from there to there. It always works to a system where it will work if the following set of conditions is met and that's. That's such a huge downgrade for consumers that they I mean people should be again. I can't imagine them pulling this off in a way that I'm not going to be making fun of them for this.

0:15:25 - Jason Snell
And it's slow and inefficient. I mean that's the other thing is, even if you can just charge wirelessly via a puck it, it generates a lot of waste heat which sometimes, depending on your environment, might actually make the phone stop charging because it gets too hot. It's. It is slow compared to the cable. I use MagSafe most of the time but, like I, I just have a hard time picturing that. And Alex point is a good one. I could see a scenario where maybe they wanted to play out the string with lightning on. You know, you could maybe do it on the low end phone. But he's absolutely right, it's already ridiculous that they've got this video capability and that that just huge video files, and then they're like well, good luck with lightning, and so to have the USB-C connector, which is a it's everybody's familiar with it. You know I, I don't know I. I'm fascinated by the way Marcus reported this, but I'm not sure I buy that again the month. I'm sure there are people who felt this way inside Apple, but is that like the monolithic Apple response here?

0:16:24 - Alex Lindsay
I I'm dubious of that. I don't know. I don't know if there is a monolithic response.

0:16:28 - Jason Snell
No, there can't be.

0:16:29 - Alex Lindsay
You know, I think that we think that there is and we think that Apple is Apple. But you know, I met a lot of folks that have a pretty strong opinions and they're not necessarily monolithic. You know about how it, so it depends on who you're talking to with any of these things. As to what the you know what we are going to do. You know the kind of thing.

0:16:45 - Jason Snell
Unless you are Tim Cook and a handful of other people, you really don't know In fact, you could argue that the way Mark's story is written Is that his sources are people who lost the argument right, right where. There are people inside Apple who are like you know, no, usbc is good, and they were fighting back and forth and oh, let's just keep lightning until we get to portless, and like, no, we should switch to USBC. And then at some point, they decided to switch to USBC. Maybe whether it's prodded by the EU or not doesn't really matter.

0:17:12 - Alex Lindsay
Those people could easily be the ones who are feeding Mark German their story about how we weren't gonna do this, even if some of them were and again, I think that the the reality is it was always gonna go to USBC for the ultra and the pro max, most likely definitely the ultra, maybe the pro max. So that that was a. That was always gonna happen, because you just can't do what you need to do with those If they keep on selling those phones. Speed of question is yeah, and so the. So the main thing is is what we're gonna do with the less expensive phones.

And you know, the other thing that they will probably bring up that I think is so far valid, just because it's the only way people are getting in. The only way people are hacking phones is Physical access to that port. You know, the only way they can get into the iPhone is a physical access to that port. Taking that port away makes it considerably harder to To hack an iPhone like it. As far as like closing gates and welding them shut, getting rid of that port is a big is a big piece of Apple being able to make sure that it's impenetrable as they move forward.

0:18:08 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, but now we're now we're now we're talking about, like, from my understanding, a very small increase in the security and integrity of People exfiltrating information off the off of device they have physical, physical possession of, and is that going to be a better Upside for most people then? Oh, I'm totally screwed. I don't have a cable with me, I don't, I don't have a special Pogo cable with me to charge my phone with, and I didn't bring I didn't. What was me? I didn't happen to bring in my laptop bag a wireless charging device, or I decided that. I don't know, I just.

I just I just think that the the massive inconvenience that's gonna happen, that they're gonna be people who they're gonna be plenty people who are gonna be like, hey, no, it's great, I need to buy a new, a new USB Battery bank anyway. My new battery bank just simply has a cheap charging as in addition to all the other stuff. Let's even ignore everything that Jason was saying about how it's inefficient, it's low, it generates heat in your bag, all the kind of stuff. It's like yeah, but what if I don't want to spite my? I like my battery bank. I don't need to spend 50, 60, 70 dollars on a new battery bank. I was really excited about the fact that I could now reuse all the USB C stuff that I use for literally everything else I have that has a digital pulse. It's, it's. I don't know. I have a hard time coming, coming away from the idea that this is just dogmatic arrogance, if this is something, if this is something that Apple actually know, notably.

0:19:39 - Leo Laporte
Mark doesn't say my sources or according to people in the know.

0:19:44 - Jason Snell
It's very pundity. The whole piece is pretty pundit, I have to say.

0:19:47 - Leo Laporte
He's gotten a little bit fast and loose like I. I know Bloomberg has rules, but I just. He doesn't seem to be following any of the rules.

0:19:58 - Jason Snell
Well, I think when he's reporting he's solid and he follows the rules. But I think that there's there is a Observer of his work from the outside. I think Bloomberg also wants him to do some pondering, especially in the newsletter, which is where he breaks news. But he also is Recapping old stories of his, which is sort of what he's doing this time as a way to set the table for the iPhone. And you know, his punditry is I mean, look, I'm not gonna judge somebody else's punditry, it's fine, but it's not his reporting and I think his reporting is solid. So that's that's the challenge there, of him being in the Bloomberg environment, which is a different editorial environment than when he was at nine to five back in the day and they have their own quirky rules and all of that. But yeah, some of it. When he is specific, I think you can see his diligence. But there are other times where he is pulling back and telling a story and and you? That's when I start to say like, well, but who like? Who said that?

0:20:50 - Leo Laporte
This feels like that story. Yeah, based on years of reporting about these kinds of things. He says it'll be a PR debacle. But I'm with you, andy, I can't wait. I think Finally I get rid of the last little bit of lightning, non-type-c charging, I mean.

0:21:08 - Andy Ihnakto
Some regular people are gonna be unhappy with it for various reasons, but I just think it's gonna blow over Well, and I can't, I can't, I can't possibly imagine that that there's always gonna be people that are gonna be upset with any change that's get there gets made. However, I can't imagine this isn't where Apple is taking. Hey, we decided we're. The news story is we decided to do away with a completely proprietary Standard that only we support and we're embracing the thing that you've likely already have stuff that already works.

We're not telling you this is wasn't like the transition to lightning. We're saying all your old stuff doesn't work. You're gonna need to buy absolutely brand new stuff and you can only buy it from us or from people who have gone through a Special works with iPhone program with us. This is basically making sure that all your stuff is more Democratic, more Catholic, more ecumenical all that sort of stuff I do and people are gonna complain, but I don't think this is as valid a complaint as it would be, like when people were saying that, hey, suddenly all my favorite headphones don't work with my iPhone anymore, unless I buy a $30 adapter and remember to bring it with me.

0:22:07 - Alex Lindsay
Whenever I go. Yeah, I think that it's I. I think that they also the fact that it took so long to go to USBC most of us have. I have probably 40 usbc of different lengths next to me.

Sitting in my car that I forgot the problem I have is that I have, I have, like, all these wires I come from my car to plug into everything else and and and I have a. You know, I have a Wireless charger in my car, wireless charger here, and I have to admit that I've gotten kind of used to that. But but the main thing is is that I think that if they had done it two or three years ago, I would have been frustrated because I wouldn't have a lot of USBC or as much as I do now. Now it's the one outlier, like it's the one thing that I have that is using something other than Thunderbolt or or USBC. As far as made for iPhone, it'll be interesting to see. I think it'll charge that way.

I think devices will be different, because I have noticed that there's something about 17 that is kind of closing off access To video out of my phone. So so I, you know it's like, it's there something to put Like they're going I don't identify what you're talking to and I'm not sure if I'm gonna do anything with that. You know, like, and so so it's an interest. Something's changing in the way that they out, they use that port even though it's lightning there. I feel like there's something, they're working on something, but I don't know what it is. Well, it's painful because I can't use it with my switcher, sometimes like a pop it up and it doesn't work.

0:23:30 - Leo Laporte
Like why we will find out on Tuesday. You know, of course, apple will celebrate it. Will it be you? You said something interesting. Will it be Thunderbolt, you think? How high speed will it be? They might as well.

0:23:43 - Alex Lindsay
Right, there's white one on the pro Thunderbolt, your thing, exactly on the really expensive. It costs money to do that port right. But if you're doing ultra you're buying into the like Ultra la creme, and ultra is the old Ford time, I think, probably four times the speed. So yeah, and you're talking?

0:23:59 - Andy Ihnakto
they talk about creators who would need to move a lot of data on and off that device, who would say, wow, if I can get, if I can get Thunderbolt speeds off of this thing. Yep, as well as Unnamed Thunderbolt accessories up that are already part of my workflow. Yes, that's. This is. This is pay. This is why I spend the extra two, three hundred dollars for the top of the line one, not just so I can flex on everybody else at the TGI Fridays.

0:24:19 - Alex Lindsay
I do think that the Ultra is going to be Apple. We'll see how much more expensive it is. I think that over time we're gonna find that that's the one that they're kind of unrestrained, like they can just do whatever they want with that price.

0:24:31 - Leo Laporte
We've always said that they should have one device, that their price is not a constraint, that like if you didn't have to think about how much it was gonna cost to Make it. What would you do? Vision Pro is that.

0:24:44 - Jason Snell
Because some part of their audience does not care what it costs some part of their audience, the four people at this, especially what ever?

0:24:51 - Alex Lindsay
Yes, well, it's our job, you know, but but yeah, I mean the but the vision pro is definitely Price constraint really it's a compromise. Oh yeah, it's a. It's a. There's definitely compromises. The next I guess the sky's the limit when you're coming to that kind of device well, you could make a $20,000 headset.

Yeah, if you, if you at at 10,000 probably eight to 10,000 you could probably get out 120 frames per second, 8k per eye and then and that's a difference- so they should make that, because there's people like you who would buy that 100% binded. To get it. I like that would be. That'd be hard for me to buy. Like. I'd be like oh, I don't even know. September I stopped buying everything because I know I'm buying a new family to like everything I go into like save mode.

0:25:43 - Leo Laporte
For a couple it's gonna be expensive couple of months yeah.

0:25:46 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, they could call the Apple vision Lisa. And then, like, three years later, oh yeah the vision that comes on totally undercuts the price at four times the performance right.

0:25:55 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, it's hard right now, I mean, the physics problems with the VR headsets are insanely hard, you know. But I do think that you know I am getting closer to where you know, especially with the Mac, the pro max that I have now that I do just use it almost all the time. I mean I still have. I have specialty Cameras for what I do, but, but on a day-to-day basis I really don't miss taking a camera anywhere, you know, and I would love to see Apple put a larger chip in and and be able to yeah, you know, just put, I just add more performance.

0:26:23 - Leo Laporte
I've pledged to just bring my like a cue with me and Just have that all the time, which I, because then I have a real, a camera camera, distinct from my phone. I Don't know why, but I feel like that's a different experience.

That's kind of I think I will see according to digit times research senior analyst, luke Lynn, the iPhone 15 and 15 plus Will be the same price as the 14 and 14 plus, but the pro pro max and I guess there might be an ultra Will cost more. A major price hike is the phrase he uses, partly because of the switch from stainless steel to titanium, partly because of the new periscope lens system. Maybe we can throw in Thunderbolt as well.

0:27:05 - Alex Lindsay
And partly because there's some of the best-selling ones that they're making right now.

0:27:08 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, partly because this is what the market will bear.

0:27:11 - Jason Snell
Some of the reports suggest that it's possible they won't raise the price in the US, but that they will definitely be doing it overseas. I wouldn't be surprised if they raised it in the US, but I would also not be surprised. Last year I thought they would raise the price to the high-end phone and they held off in the US. And they might still do that, especially depending on the marketing. Mark Gurman has said that there are only two high-end phones, so there's not a Pro Max and an Ultra.

The question is just marketing. Are they gonna change the Pro Max and start calling it Ultra and differentiating it further that way? Or is that for another year and not this year? And I feel like that. We don't know, because that's a marketing decision. That's something that they can hold really close to their chest, but they'll only be those two phones up there and it's so easy to say yeah, of course it'll be more expensive. That's what Apple does. They make everything you want more expensive and then you buy it and they make all the money and they laugh all the way to the bank, and that's true. But they also have shown some restraint in a cooling, especially US smartphone market and they might say that it's close enough. It's good enough, especially since they have all these other tricks in terms of onboard storage and stuff to get you to pay more than the base price.

0:28:23 - Andy Ihnakto
And they can get away with that because they've also done a really good job in making sure that they cover pretty much almost every single price budget along the iPhone line, between making sure that they have a diverse line of new phones every single year and also keeping older phones on the price list but continuing to drop the prices of them. So I think they're very competitive with mid-range and even some low-cost Android phones, and that's saying something.

0:28:48 - Leo Laporte
To a chance Miller rating for nine to five Mac reminds us that Tim Cook, during Apple's Q123 earnings call, said quote iPhone contains their I should have. Iphone contains their I can't do. His voice contains their contacts and their health information and their banking information and their smart home and so many different parts of their lives, their payment vehicle and for many people. So I think people are willing to really stretch to get the best they can afford in that category. Maybe he was just justifying their existing Thousand dollar price, but it may be that is some thinking at Apple that because this becomes more and more your primary computing device, maybe people aren't willing to expand about their willing to pay.

0:29:31 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know if I'm representative, but I spend more time on my iPhone than any other device.

0:29:34 - Jason Snell
I have Like whether it's computers or anything else.

0:29:37 - Alex Lindsay
it's the and I think that again, I think the Apple's advantage is that I actually really think that Apple users are just less geeky and like they just want it to work. They want it to be in the background and there when they need it. They just don't want to fiddle with it, they just want it to work. Like I found that I someone wanted to send me money over Benmo and I opened it up and I was like, okay, this is super weird that I'm seeing everybody else's transactions totally just shut it off and took off my phone. I was like I don't, I don't want to use that. That was just last night. So I was like I just wanted to work, I just want to send my Apple pay to what you're doing, you know.

0:30:08 - Jason Snell
I also think that the lengthening of the cycle, while it hurts Apple in some ways because they're not selling people a new phone every two years anymore it might be three or four years it does, for a certain portion of the user base, mean if you're only buying it every third year or every fourth year, you want to spend a lot of money on the best one, because then you're going to use it for a long time. And if that's the case, that also makes it easier. It's your number one device, it's your most important thing in your life. You're only going to buy it every three years. So shelling out 1200 or 1300 for a high-end, spiffed up iPhone pro is not as hard a question for a certain portion of Apple's base. And that's, I mean, that's part of the game Apple's playing. Apple is using old models and the SC and stuff to push down into a lower price points for people who are more price sensitive in the US and around the world.

0:30:58 - Alex Lindsay
But they also want to take as much money as they can from people who literally will pay anything for the new iPhone and also, even if you're updating every year, like mine, my wife and kids have older ones, but they're not going to need another one this year, and this one I put into a case the moment it showed up. I put a screen protector on it and I will take it out and there's a high probability I'm going to sell it, you know, just like you know, sell it off it'll, I'll get a big chunk of that back of what I put into it, because it's in mint condition, you know, and so I think that there's other people thinking about it that way as well.

0:31:31 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, my iPhone is mintier than it's ever been. I I I hadn't dropped it or anything. That's a good point. How much of what percentage of it? What's the depreciation? It's pretty low for after a year, I would bet. I don't know what it.

0:31:43 - Alex Lindsay
I don't and I'm going to throw in this marvelous TV sticker. I'm starting to do is like keep the boxes. I keep the boxes. Yes, I keep the boxes. Yeah, cause then I now careful, this is the first one. I carefully took it out of the box. Yeah, Just left everything else in the box.

0:31:57 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, including yeah, this cables that you don't need. Yeah, I just like, I'm just going to leave it all there.

0:32:01 - Alex Lindsay
It's almost pristine, and then I can put it all back, yeah.

0:32:03 - Leo Laporte
And I don't take the sticker. Even I leave that in too. I take the sticker. What am I going to do with?

0:32:11 - Alex Lindsay
800 apples. Gazelle doesn't ask for that. Gazelle doesn't ask or they don't ask for those. I take the sticker. I have a big pile of stickers I don't.

0:32:17 - Leo Laporte
I never put them anywhere, but I have them. I only save the silver and black ones. You know the oddball ones, the white stickers, those are diamond dozen. I got a million of them. Great conversation more to come in just a bit.

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You'll be impressed. You may be amazed by how much wrong data you have in your databases. is the address. Please use that so they know you saw it here, melissa. M-e-l-i-s-s-acom slash twit, one of our long time sponsors, and we really love them. Thanks so much, melissa, for supporting Mac Break Weekly. As long as we're talking digit times, I'll throw in one more rumor. This one I almost didn't even wanna. I don't think I bookmarked it because it was so dopey. Apple will maybe it's not dopey. Apple will launch low cost Mac books next year to rival Chromebooks. Apple. They're not making them yet. Quana computer and Fox kind of, which makes those laptops seem not to be doing anything particular right now because it's making phones. But Apple apparently, like every other PC manufacturer, wants to get some of that lucrative Chromebook market. It's growing all the time, and they I don't know where digit times gets this, but they say they're gonna do a look. What does low cost mean to Apple, though?

0:36:54 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the only reason why this is even marginally interesting is that it does come from digit times and it's not Joe Blow on Twitter. However, yeah, to compete with Chromebooks, they're gonna have to sell for less than 300 bucks. No, that's not gonna happen. That's just Exactly.

0:37:13 - Leo Laporte
And that's not. Also, you've got an iPad at that price point, so you don't wanna undercut that.

0:37:18 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, but the problem that Apple's facing is that there are restrictions on what school, on what kind of hardware school systems can buy for their kids, and they include well, you're gonna have to have a trackpad, you're gonna have to have a keyboard, and so the $329 or $300 educational iPad doesn't meet those goals.

I just don't think that it's something that Apple is even capable of doing. If they were to do it, they would want to do it in a way that's better than Chromebooks are, which is a very, very big margin to do. They're not great laptops. They weren't designed to be. They were designed to be affordable, so that instead of having a set of a school being able to fill like a 20 C classroom with eight really, really good notebooks that are gonna have to double up between students, they want to be able to buy 20 okay, workable, meets, the meets, the meets, the prescription laptops that everybody can have. And I don't think that, again, I don't think Apple would be interested in doing that. I don't think they have any special Elf and magic that they could create something like that.

0:38:19 - Leo Laporte
That would be competitive, the one thing that maybe would spur them to do that is if they had a bunch of, let's say, m ones unsold. Remember they bought all of TSMC's capacity and they were able to make up, you know, maybe a plastic M one for a lot less, and they had some parts. Remember, that's why they made a studio display because they had extra iPhone parts lying around.

0:38:47 - Alex Lindsay
I think that the thing is is the iPad is so much more than the Chromebook when it comes to actual like being able to create things, you know, like not not just be a little machine that is typing little things. And my kids have two Chromebooks and two iPads. They use Chromebooks for school because they have to, and then they never look at them again.

0:39:03 - Leo Laporte
Like they. You know they're just notice, alex, you and I know that, but the school buys Chromebooks. That's the point. Whether, whether, yeah, a lot of school buying iPads as well 30 million last year.

0:39:13 - Alex Lindsay
The schools run by, you know, administrators who don't have any vision, that's right.

0:39:18 - Leo Laporte
No, I understand, but that's still the market.

0:39:20 - Alex Lindsay
It is. They are damaging their future by using Chromebooks. You know like it is. The inability to create on the Chromebooks just destroys the only thing that matters. That, you know. The problem is is that most of what kids are learning at school they're never going to use again, like you know.

Being able to create, being able to, you know, generate content is super important. Being able to generate ideas, you know, is super important, and it just gets so watered down and dumbed down by Chromebooks. You know, and I get what. What Google did really effectively is they they got the receiver to stop and they just threw the right where the seeker is, right where the teacher's asked for. Like, this is what we need. We just need it to be easy to do this thing, but there was no forward motion of what that is actually going to need later, and you know, and so you know, it's really painful for, as a parent, to watch, and so I keep it with their iPads so they can actually do something useful with it. But I feel like kids who don't have parents or that can afford to buy them real computers are really at a huge disadvantage by administrators thinking that this is going to be enough because it's just not in the future.

0:40:30 - Andy Ihnakto
Well, I agree with the principles that you're saying. However, I don't think that the slot, that the slot that is being filled by Chromebooks, and that those same purchase agreements would be hypothetically filled with an iPad. They're not there to help kids learn how to create and explore and create new experiences and whatever they. Sometimes some computers are just basic, fundamental equipment. That this is the table stakes that you absolutely need to start from. Just like a school needs a heating system, it needs air conditioning, it needs electricity, it needs a lunch program, that kind of stuff.

They're not exciting, but I'm just saying that they it's one if you want to make sure that kids can do online research, that they can use whatever software suite is being used to have a unified curriculum so they can submit reports, they can submit homework. Teachers can also oversee and lead classes from the front of the room.

0:41:36 - Alex Lindsay
So, it feeds the machine, it feeds the machine, like it's just. But you know, and it's fine. It's fine because I mean, the schools that we have today are not going to be the schools we have in 10 years. I mean they're going to be gone. So we can. So it's not that big of a deal today, because the ones that can't figure out how to be innovative aren't going to last. And you know this is we're past the whole, like people are just going to send their kids to public school.

0:42:04 - Andy Ihnakto
You know that's going to happen much longer. So I have to point out at this point a little disclaimer that Alex Lindsey is an educational iconoclast.

0:42:11 - Leo Laporte
it always has been Okay.

0:42:13 - Alex Lindsay
An iconoclast. I don't even know what that means. Yeah, if you have a better education, you might.

0:42:17 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I risk my case, your honor.

0:42:20 - Leo Laporte
I risk my case.

0:42:23 - Andy Ihnakto
All I want to say is that the teachers in the classrooms and even the administrators they have incredible problems that they're dealing with that go far beyond. Are we giving kids the technology they can use to create and be part of the classroom of the future in 2020, 2033? They're fighting wars on France, where there is a book we've been using for 30, 40 years, and now, because of two activists, parents and somewhere inside the school system, we have to fight to say that this education is important. We have to fight to say that this science, this part of our science curriculum, is important, that, no, we don't have to tell you that's possible, that God created the universe, because science doesn't say that.

On that basis, they got a really full plate and sometimes, again, a good part of their job has to be spent on simply saying the lights are on, the rooms are heated, everybody has a seat in a desk that's not gonna dump them on their butts, and they have a computer for which they can learn the basic skills of computing and the basic skills of document creation and expressing your ideas through words and pictures.

I think it's great if the school system can also have in that same classroom one or two Macs and a few iPads so that when it's time to create the multimedia part of the presentation, they can now take all the work they've done collaboratively in Google Docs for education and then say, well, great, now we're gonna put this into keynote or we're gonna create this animation with keynote or with motion and then add that to our presentation, but at some point I'm not gonna. I don't. I really have a problem with faulting educators for not having the vision to buy iPads that are not suitable for the task for which they're being approved funds to buy computers In.

0:44:02 - Leo Laporte
England, they're still having to worry about the ceilings falling in. So there's that too. Jason Snell has a theory, I have a theory. I wanna hear your theory, my friend.

0:44:10 - Jason Snell
It has nothing to do with the education market, because my theory is gonna start with the fact that we're talking about a story from Digitimes, which is reporting from the industry sources that are probably in the supply chain, which means they don't know what this computer is for.

They don't know who it's gonna be, market, for they're assuming that if Apple is making a low-cost laptop, that it's for schools. But that feels to me a little bit like a veneer of angle to the story the Digitimes is putting on it. I look at this and I think if this is true and we don't know this is kind of a shifty rumor. But if Apple is looking at this, I think it's far more likely that Apple is looking at the fact that they've got the M1 MacBook Air, the M2 MacBook Air and the forthcoming M3 MacBook Air and they're like what are we doing because the M2 is coming down? But they really have a lot of customers, including an education, who want that low-cost for Apple, a sub-thousand-dollar laptop price point.

0:45:06 - Leo Laporte
And I wonder-, but very performance still, which is kind of impressive.

0:45:09 - Jason Snell
Yeah, the M1 is still amazing, right? So what if Apple is investigating here is, how do we use the work we did on the M1 Air and build something that's I mean for lack of a better word a MacBook SE, a older tech designed to be cheaper laptop that is not gonna appeal to the people who are gonna buy a MacBook Air M2 or M3, but using, possibly just to start, the M1 and some cheaper materials? The Digitimes report says it's still metal, but not like the same, and I just keep coming back to cut-cost, cut corners. The air is a little too nice, so we're gonna make a cheaper version of it. That's just. It's cheaper to make, but it's still got the profile of an M1 Mac. That's potentially still a pretty good product, especially if you could get it to $699 or something like that $599, and still have the MacBook Air up at $1,000. I think that is a more reasonable scenario in my mind for what this might be.

0:46:14 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, I think there's room for creating a competition, not with Chromebooks, but with this really great $5, $6, $7, $100 Windows notebooks that are out there, where their biggest faults are all not due to the hardware but just due to the fact that they're running Windows. So if they could try to get back the people who need a new laptop are going to have to run Windows. I don't mean that as nice as possible.

I'm talking about like if you could get that.

There are a whole bunch of really cheap Windows notebooks where if I could run Windows on this, if I could run Mac OS on this, it would be a good competition for like a MacBook for me, because I love the design of it, I love the choices they've made of it. The keyboard might be nicer, it might have extra ports to it all this other sort of stuff. And, again, most of the people when you're talking about it's time to buy the kid his or her or their own notebook because they're going to high school or they're going to college. We don't have $1,000 or $1,200 to spend on a MacBook, so we're going to get them something that's Windows-based. We also are too smart to buy them a $250 Chromebook that's designed pretty much for education. It's like I would love to buy the kid a MacBook, which is one of the best notebooks you can buy, but I'm also not going to buy them with $1,200 or $1,300 or $1,500 Windows machine either. I've got $600 or $700 seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend on.

0:47:34 - Leo Laporte
Right, here's the laptop. I think Apple's competing against because they don't have anything at the $850 price point, but Dell does with the XPS 13, which is quite a nice, very MacBook-y. It's 12th generation Intel, it's a 16 gigs of RAM and it's running Windows. That's its only handicap, which, by the way, not everybody in the world sees as a handicap. I think that's a much more sensible place for Apple to aim, and they also do. They have this bumper where the iPad is going to keep them from going too low. They don't want to cannibalize iPad sales. Exactly, I think you're exactly right, andy. They need something under a thousand. What is the educational price for the lowest cost MacBook Air?

0:48:21 - Jason Snell
Is it $899 right now? I think?

0:48:23 - Andy Ihnakto
$899. $100 less than whatever, the whatever it is.

0:48:26 - Leo Laporte
I'd read yeah, so they need a $699, $699 to $799 somewhere in there. I think that makes a lot of sense, and since they probably have surplus parts that they can use for this, I think that that makes sense, I think you hit it on the nail on the head.

0:48:41 - Jason Snell
And the M1 is just not bad, Right? No, it's good. We're in a weird point right now where the M1, this four-year-old three-year-old right now, but when this comes out, four or five-year-old chip, honestly it's still going to be able to do almost everything people wanted to do. So maybe, and it's very Tim Cook right to take kind of like old stuff and say let's not discontinue this old stuff, let's use it to make something cheaper that people will buy.

0:49:08 - Alex Lindsay
who can't buy the expenses and you get into the same thing that you saw with Apple has to be preparing for this wave that we've talked about in the past, which is 90% of kids in school are using iPhones. There's a lot of demand as they go to college to probably get something that's more Mac-driven for that, as we talked about earlier, I don't think they have any temptations like they're going to keep on using a Chromebook, so they're going to transition to that as they go into college. So it does make a lot of sense. I mean, right now, if I was going to get something I mean unless they really thought they were going to use it all over the place I'd still look at a Mac mini because it's really inexpensive and really powerful and it's got a lot more ports.

0:49:47 - Leo Laporte
For school. I think they want laptops. I really do, yeah, they kind of have to.

0:49:52 - Alex Lindsay
I'd rather have a Mac mini, I mean in school. I'd rather have a Mac mini and an iPad myself, Like I take it, take the iPad around a class and do real work at home with it. But I like to leave my technology.

0:50:01 - Leo Laporte
When you start your fine private charter school, you can do that.

0:50:07 - Andy Ihnakto
I need to go anywhere in my school and if all the kids are on segways or you're going to have one of those moving sidewalks taking them from class to class.

0:50:15 - Alex Lindsay
I just have them just get up and turn the computer on.

0:50:20 - Leo Laporte
Right, they don't have to go anywhere. Let them stay in their jammies, Take a break and come back with an actual news story. Enough digit times rumors for that time being anyway, you know we're you know we're going to be dealing with rumors right up until the Apple event, and then it's all hard news.

0:50:37 - Andy Ihnakto
Because it's, it's, it's, it's. It's like when you see that that uh what they have, when this grocery store has a really good sale on milk, it's because, oh God, all this stuff is going to go.

0:50:46 - Leo Laporte
We can't, we can't sell it Exactly Get these rumors out we got to move them out.

0:50:49 - Andy Ihnakto
I don't care how bad these rumors are If we don't use them now.

0:50:52 - Leo Laporte
we got kind of cheese one day before expiration, we got to move it out. Uh, I'm not going to do the rumors about the digital crown for the MacBook or the clear laptop that they just patented in the US and the UK. I'm not going to do those. We're just going to skip right over those you can. If you're into rumors, you know I'm sorry we're going to disappoint you. First, though, before we do any more, a word from our sponsor, delete me. Uh, I can say from personal experience this is a thing that many of you will want to do, especially in business, especially if you're an executive in business. We've had our executives do this. If you've ever searched for your name online, have you noticed how much not just you know your blog, but personal information is online? That might make you feel a little exposed and unsafe, and if you're in a business, the fact that executives personal information is available online is really a recipe for disaster, with spearfishing and impersonation.

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As far as I know, apple and Microsoft fight Brussels over. I'm not talking. I'm not talking vegetables here. We're talking about the EU over gatekeeper label for my message and Bing. Apple's questionable strategy is oh, messages isn't that big? It's not big enough to be regulated under the digital markets act. Bing Well, we, I believe Bing's not that big, but but I so. The key is platforms with an annual revenue of more than 7.5 billion euros, a market cap above 75 billion euros and active EU users of 45 million uh fall under the rules. Apple, I mean. I could argue Apple has all of the above, but Apple says I message doesn't meet the threshold of user numbers, not 45 million.

0:56:41 - Alex Lindsay
I will say that I don't know a single person in Europe that uses messages. I literally all use what's.

0:56:46 - Leo Laporte
so here's the question If they have, if they've sold 45 million iPhones in the EU, isn't that the case that they're using? Every iPhone uses messages. Whether you prefer WhatsApp or not, are you actively?

0:56:58 - Alex Lindsay
using it.

0:56:59 - Jason Snell
Well, that's. That's the question, which comes down to what metric is Apple using? Let's play the game. What? How do we get the numbers to be underneath the total? It's sort of like the price is right.

0:57:11 - Leo Laporte
You don't want to go over People by the way, they have never revealed how many iPhones they've sold in Europe, so we don't know what that number is, but I think it's probably sufficient.

0:57:21 - Jason Snell
My guess is what they're going to say is it's about active use of the platform, right? My guess is what they're saying is essentially yeah, europeans don't send iMessages to each other. They send WhatsApp messages or whatever, and therefore there aren't that many people actively using iMessage. And remember, imessage message is app, is not the same as iMessage, right, that's service and like a text message through your carrier is not an iMessage, necessarily.

0:57:49 - Leo Laporte
But it uses. The message is app.

0:57:52 - Jason Snell
It does use the message is app, but does it use the iMessage protocol? I think this is the question, though, is that I mean I talk to people I know in Europe who are like yeah, it's irrelevant. Right, like messages is irrelevant to them because all their group texts, all their text messages, are using a third-party app. They're not using Apple.

0:58:10 - Leo Laporte
So people in Europe don't text people via their phone number, they don't send a text to a phone number, they just use WhatsApp.

0:58:16 - Jason Snell
They send it to the phone number that was registered with WhatsApp.

0:58:20 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, in WhatsApp. Via WhatsApp, they never open Apple's messages.

0:58:25 - Jason Snell
And so this is Apple saying please don't regulate us, we're unsuccessful.

0:58:29 - Leo Laporte
By the way, what's the upshot of them being regulated? Well, one thing they'd have to open it up. Yeah, and let, for instance which I think a lot of EU customers would like let them use WhatsApp as their SMS messaging default.

0:58:46 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah Also, this is weird because there's no way that Apple can win, because the EU is not going to say, oh, I'm sorry, sorry to bother. They're going to say, wow, great, I bet you'll be able to provide us with hard numbers on all of the usage of these devices, of the service on your phone, and Apple has never, ever, ever, ever, ever wanted to do that. So it's like congratulations, we're going to find out exactly how many people use it. And it's like Jason says. It's like how are they going to account it? They can use Hollywood. They're going to use Hollywood. Bookkeeping says that our numbers say that it's 92 million a month and they can say, yeah, no, send this back to accounting, make sure you get this down to 44.7.

0:59:30 - Alex Lindsay
To be honest I mean from again, only from my experience I'd be surprised if it was more than 45 million. We're using it regularly in Europe. I'm very surprised. I would be surprised if it was more than 10 million.

0:59:40 - Leo Laporte
But wait a minute, Alex, there's nothing in the regulations that says regularly.

0:59:44 - Alex Lindsay
No, it does, yeah. Active users Monthly active users oh, it does, okay, yeah. So if you look at monthly active users, if it was above 10 million, I'd be a little surprised. Above 20 million, I'd be very surprised. I mean, there is nobody that I deal with in the pretty much in the rest of the world that uses anything other than WhatsApp, like it's just like a WhatsApp signal, telegram, and then you know, everyone uses Messenger and other things like that because they're in Facebook, but it's just a very, very tiny. You know, outside of the United States high schools it's a pretty small number, and so I don't know if it needs to meet all those thresholds. I think they actually have.

1:00:26 - Leo Laporte
I don't see regular, I don't see monthly active users. It's reaching at least 45 million users in the EU, which is 10% of the population. You don't think 10% of the.

1:00:35 - Alex Lindsay
It was article I read that said Well, I'm looking.

1:00:37 - Leo Laporte
This is the EU's own description of it. You don't think. 10% of the population of Europe uses iPhones and messages.

1:00:47 - Alex Lindsay
Well, again, from my experience, none of them do Like I can't get ahold of them with messages, like they don't even. It's like as if the app doesn't even exist, like that's something that's I don't know anybody.

1:00:58 - Leo Laporte
Apple's App Store has already been identified as an online, very large online platform. Well, it's interesting. A lot of people are buying apps.

1:01:06 - Alex Lindsay
A lot of people are buying apps on the App Store because if you have an iPhone, you have that and you're gonna that's what you're gonna use, so that makes sense.

1:01:10 - Leo Laporte
But you can't. On the iPhone, you can't say I want all my text messages to go to WhatsApp. You can't.

1:01:16 - Alex Lindsay
That's not the issue right now, but they're all using WhatsApp. I mean, they're all in WhatsApp all the time, like that's all. They're not. No one's using text. Yeah.

1:01:28 - Andy Ihnakto
But even so, this is gonna be something where, Like what I've been saying with all these lawsuits like Apple's not gonna we're not just gonna take your word for it, Apple, You're gonna have to actually prove it and prove it to a very high standard. I mean, if they don't qualify for it, then they should fight this. But again, you're gonna have to show enough data about the amount of traffic that you put across in the EU to make sure that you don't actually qualify for this.

1:01:53 - Alex Lindsay
I think Apple disconnected everyone in Europe that have messages. Just disconnected them instead. No one would notice. I don't know anyone in Europe would notice.

1:02:00 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, and to be honest, that would be. There's so many. The fight to regulate all these huge, huge companies is turning into a lot of oh well. So the Canada told Google that oh, by the way, you're gonna have to pay news creators for every link that you send to their sites. They said, oh, okay, I guess we're not gonna be providing any news in Canada anymore, because that's stupid and we're not gonna do that.

1:02:26 - Leo Laporte
So, yeah, the penalties are great Up to 6% of revenue for non-compliance the thing thatI mean. Honestly, it would be nice to see Apple support some of these measures. Countermeasures against illegal activities are required in scrutiny. You should be able to trace sellers in online marketplaces to combat scammers. Limits on targeted advertising Maybe Apple didn't like that so much. The biggest thing, though, would be opening the platform Algorithmic transparency, the ability, For instance. I think they might require Apple to say yeah, you can use WhatsApp for your text messaging. That would be okay.

1:03:11 - Andy Ihnakto
I'm sorry. I think I've got the actual text of the resolution here. So, as we provide the core platform service that in the last financial year has at least 45 million monthly active end users established or located in the union At least 10,000 years, so it's monthly active users has to be 45 million 10%.

1:03:31 - Alex Lindsay
And I think that 45 million would be really hard pressed, given I just don't think anybody's using it Like they just neverit's all WhatsApp.

1:03:39 - Leo Laporte
Well, does Apple have to prove that, or can they just assert it? I think they'd have to prove it right. They'd have to show us the numbers, right.

1:03:48 - Alex Lindsay
They've shown somebody the numbers, it doesn't mean they have to necessarily make them public.

1:03:53 - Leo Laporte
Apple just hasn't disclosed those numbers forever.

1:03:57 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, but that would be a canary, though, like oh, congratulations, the EU has declared that Apple's iMessage is not falling. Yeah, which is a tury. Or it does fall in that purview, yeah.

1:04:07 - Leo Laporte
So at least we'll get something out of it. Brussels is, according to the Financial Times, still deliberating and you know how Brussels can be Over the inclusion of iMessage and Bing in the final list, so that's why this is still open. The commission may open a probe to determine if these services should face the new obligations set out in the DMA. This is relevant because I think it's. Is it now active? I think it was September 1st the deadline. No, or that was the DSA. I think it was before. I think, yeah, that was the DSA. So January of next year? All right. Well, we'll see. Legal fights between tech giants and EU regulators come at a time of heightened scrutiny over their alleged anti-competitive behavior. This year, brussels threatened to break up Google, says the Financial Times, over its alleged illegal practices in the ad tech space. They certainly are saber rattling more than even here in the US.

1:05:01 - Jason Snell
Yeah, we've been talking about Apple getting out of this one thing, but they're. They're in all the other things right.

They're a gatekeeper in all these other ways. It's just this one portion of their business where they're trying to, I mean literally as look guys, we're not that successful in Europe with iMessage, Leave it out. And I think that they've got a. I mean, I think they've got a good chance of proving that, because that's they're bad at that in Europe. They just are. So they got other they got I mean. There are also those reports we talked about a while ago, like where it's going to hit the Miss, Things like App Store policy, where they may have to make enormous changes, at least in the EU, to the App Store. But you know, iMessage it feels like just small fry, Like it's going to not be particularly important. And I would also say, yeah, if in the end they have to make different default apps for messaging available, like they've already done that with so many different apps that I don't think it would be a big deal.

1:05:56 - Andy Ihnakto
They've already.

We've already heard, really we've heard here really good information about how, like, if, if and when Apple does have to open up the App Store in the EU, congratulations, they will open up the App Store in the EU.

It's not they're going to have a special version of the OS that only works, that's geo-locked to EU phone numbers, and it's not as though that's going to be something that's going to be available to us in the US.

It also remains to be seen, if they're going to if, how they're going to actually comply with this. If they're going to say, oh, congratulations, you can just simply download this from anywhere at an external App Store, we're perfectly happy with it. We're not going to do anything to make that more difficult to install or use or trust, and we're not going to, we're certainly not going to treat the apps that you install with those apps, as second class citizens. On this, echo says no, they're going to make, they're going to basically say, if you, if you, if you have, if you have, if you have fallen on glass and you've severed an artery and the only way to stop the bleeding and save your life is to install an external app outside the App Store, then you will probably make the decision that what we put you through is going to be worth installing this external app.

1:07:04 - Jason Snell
However, if you're simply if it's.

1:07:06 - Andy Ihnakto
If it's if you're simply bleeding a lot and you can make it to the emergency room. You'll say you know what? This is way too much trouble.

1:07:13 - Alex Lindsay
I'll just be lightheaded until the ambulance comes and the reality is, is just forking it for the EU is probably enough to kill it, because it just means that you have this, this, you've subdivided the market. So, as a developer, you really have to make a good reason to build something that's outside of the App Store, because you're now only targeting one part of the world and which is a much smaller minority. I don't know if it would be, I just don't think, for if they actually fork it, I don't think that most developers would want to go down that path, because it would fragment their market.

1:07:42 - Jason Snell
And what it will do is show that Apple has done the engineering work to enable this feature, which makes it a lot easier for other countries to then pass laws and regulations that require Apple to put it in their territory. I think that's the thing Apple's the most concerned about is not just Europe, but it's that once. It's like what we were talking about encryption in the UK thing. It's like if they say yes and break encryption just for the UK, everyone else will just pass their own laws to do the same thing.

1:08:10 - Alex Lindsay
Every time, every time there's a breach in that other App Store, anything wrong, you can guarantee that Apple will talk to the press.

1:08:18 - Jason Snell
I think this is the most important part about the EU thing is Apple has said it's a Pandorus box, right? Apple has said if you let side loading happen on the iOS instead of the App Store on iOS, oh, bad actors, bad things are going to happen and the EU is really going to be like well, let's see, right, let's see what happens. And it could be that they are able to say, see, I told you, so this is very bad. It could also be that their argument is exposed as being toothless, because it's really not a big deal, because they have all of the other security in place because they want their users in the EU to not be hacked right.

1:08:55 - Leo Laporte
We'll see Pressure at home on Apple to do something about child sexual abuse material. There is a new group called the HEAT Initiative, which is led by the former vice president for the nonprofit, thorn. Thorn develops new technologies to combat child exploitation online and sex trafficking. Thorn loved the 2021 CSAM initiative that Apple decided not to proceed with. They called Apple's decision to kill the feature disappointing. Now the HEAT Initiative has emerged to push Apple to bring back CSAM scanning.

1:09:41 - Alex Lindsay
I think that Apple was trying to head this off. This is what they were doing before was, hey, there's a bunch of pressure being built A lot of these kind of campaigns happen over very many years of them pushing down on it before they become public. And I think Apple was trying to head it off. And then they ran into a wall of hey, a bunch of us think that's a really like you're opening up again a Pandora's box, of we're going to dig into your private information on your phone and while the vast majority are not going to be moving pornography or child pornography around, it's still like once you open that door, it's hard to close it again, and I think that. So I think everyone got upset. I don't think Apple expected it to be such a hot topic for them and they dropped out of it. And now they don't. They want to go back.

1:10:26 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, so they got. Oh sorry, go ahead Jason.

1:10:28 - Jason Snell
I was just going to say this is not necessarily a grassroots group. This is a group that doesn't seem to exist for anything except to actually shame Apple about this one issue.

1:10:37 - Leo Laporte
It seems to have been Apple under the heat.

1:10:39 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it seems to have been set up for this press release, essentially, and the one person who was involved is somebody who's basically like has on the resume this one other thing, which was for the nonprofit that Aston and Demi set up, I guess, about child pornography.

1:10:54 - Leo Laporte
Oh, really, I think that's what Thorne is.

1:10:59 - Jason Snell
And so this is a pressure group and that's fair. That's how the game is played. And they're going to argue no, no, no, you make your slippery slope arguments. We're going to make our other argument, which is why are you not protecting the children?

1:11:12 - Leo Laporte
Here's some of the images that you'll see at protectchildrennotabusecom. Apple allows child sexual abuse images to be stored on iCloud, and child sexual abuse is stored on iCloud. Apple allows it? I don't think Apple allows. It is really the language I would use. They have their own website now, and so Apple? Yeah, obviously attempting to quell this before it becomes yet another drumbeat. But this is a tough one, because nobody wants to be the one that says, oh yeah, they don't want to be seen as somebody who encourages child abuse, which is why this campaign is acting as if Apple is somehow encouraging it.

1:11:56 - Andy Ihnakto
I mean this is this is. It's interesting because the group reached out to Apple and said oh, by the way, we're going to be launching this campaign in about a week. We think it was fair to reach out to you and let you know that we're doing this. Apple's VP of that department basically sent a very, very long, like seven paragraph long, substantive email response to them, which they also shared with Wired, which is why we're talking about it now. That basically outlined that, yeah, we thought that was a good idea.

We talked to a whole bunch of groups who convinced us it was actually not a good idea, that we thought that we would be able to implement this in a way that would that would protect the safety and security of the privacy of people's data. We became convinced that we were optimistic about that, and so that's why we pulled back about it. But nonetheless, here are a whole bunch of technologies that we did bake into the phone so that make it more difficult and more challenging for kids to be exposed to content that their parents don't want them to be exposed to.

1:12:55 - Leo Laporte
Apple's Director of User Privacy and Child Safety said in that response, eric Newn-Schwander child sexual abuse material is abhorrent and we are committed to breaking the chain of coercion and influence that makes children susceptible to it. However, scanning every user's privately stored iCloud data would create new threat vectors for data thieves to find and exploit. It would also inject the potential for and I think this is really the bigger one a slippery slope of unintended consequences. Scanning for one type of content, for instance, opens the door for bulk surveillance and could create a desire to search other encrypted messaging systems across content types. For instance. People brought this up. You know homosexuality is illegal in some countries, in some countries considered child abuse In those countries. They could say to Apple well, we'd also like to use scan for gay content on your iCloud, and so I understand Apple's nervousness about this.

1:13:53 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the Kids on Social Media Act that's making its way through Congress right now, yeah, yeah, cosa, and that's already being used as, okay, the principles of this are very, very sound, but already we're having long bankers who are supporting it saying and we're going to absolutely definitely going to use this to make sure that we find out if kids are accessing information about transgender resources, because they need to be protected from that awful, awful, abusive stuff.

And so, yeah, this is, I mean, this was absolutely the right call. And, as we've said time and time before, and we just said about half hour ago, when talking about opening up the app store and opening up messages like, if Apple has demonstrated, okay, we have the infrastructure now to scan all content on somebody's device for X thing that we'd find objectionable or illegal, now every single government will take a shot saying, well, look, why are you denying us the ability to enforce the laws that exist inside our really, really horrible totalitarian regime? Just flip that switch and give us a version of the iPhone OS that allows us to find out which people are posting really negative things about our regime using their devices, and Apple's going to have a whole new problem in their process. Joe and.

I just simply say we don't have that, we can't do that. They have a no, joe.

1:15:15 - Leo Laporte
Well, that's the problem, joe, and our discord points out that Apple has in effect telegraphed that they have the ability to do this. Even though they say, well, it'd be a bad idea, they've admitted that they technologically can do it, and at that point they've already opened that Pandora's box. It's a little late to sell now.

1:15:33 - Jason Snell
It's a very limited crack in the box, though, because what they announced was scanning the data on your device before it is uploaded to the cloud, because in the cloud, you're talking about encrypted data to a certain depending on what the encryption levels are and the cloud service that you're using, and so what they were doing is, on device, doing fingerprinting for known CSAM, which is not necessarily going to catch anything other than the known corpus of data, and so that's a really limited thing and what they? There was a lot of pushback about that from a lot of areas, as we've detailed, and so they backed away from that. So that's a yeah, they've proven that they could probably do that one thing, but I'm not sure that's going to satisfy anybody who's asking for this stuff.

1:16:23 - Leo Laporte
I think China might say reasonably we want to make sure that before any images of Winnie the Pooh are uploaded to your iCloud, that we stop them.

1:16:31 - Andy Ihnakto
And Apple would have to respond to that right and we have countries in which people are being put into jail and given the death penalty for simply expressing. This is not generic, this is their cases.

1:16:44 - Leo Laporte
Saudi Arabia is putting is just declared they're going to kill a dissident who tweeted negative things about MBS. You know that's so.

1:16:54 - Andy Ihnakto
So imagine that. Imagine someone being savvy enough to say, okay, well, that could get me killed, so I'm going to make sure that I use completely secure communications from end to end to to make this information get out. Now imagine that the phone has ability to examine the data before it enters that pipeline. To begin with, that is a nuclear weapon in the hands of so many really bad people that we just don't want any part of it. Apple is very, very smart to wash their hands of it.

1:17:18 - Leo Laporte
Can they? I mean, this is going to be a this campaign. I don't know how much money heat initiative has to spend, but this can't. I mean, look when, if you just ask people, should Apple be making sure there's no child sexual abuse material on iCloud? 99% of respondents are going to say, well, of course.

1:17:40 - Andy Ihnakto
But the problem becomes like this is something, another thing, we've been yeah, we know this.

1:17:44 - Leo Laporte
No, I understand, we don't know. No, no, no, no. How does Apple respond to that?

1:17:48 - Andy Ihnakto
That's. That's not when I'm talking about it. Where that, what do you? What they're, they're out has always been. We always, we always obey the look. We were forced to obey the local laws and laws of regic, leg regulations in which we operate. At some point they're going to have to draw a line and saying that you're asking us to do something that we find morally abhorrent and we're not going to do it, and Apple has been. I think Apple's doing an okay job so far.

Again, their response to this, this PR campaign, is on spot. It was. It was substantive, it was detailed, they knew how to play the media games. And well, we're going to be very, very open with this one outlet that we respect and trust and aren't run by bozos, and we're actually going to give them our response to who are and they're going to be happy enough to to spread that response for us. They're not, they're not concerned about this one group. They're. They're concerned when a grounds, groundswell of people inside Congress start to clamor for this stuff and, unfortunately, the people who are going to be empowering that stuff isn't necessarily a political party. But it's going to be like the FBI, it's going to be like interior intelligence agencies, it's going to be law enforcement that continue to put pressure in every single country, saying that we, if the people have the ability to keep a secret from the government, then we don't have the ability to track down important crimes and therefore people should not have the ability to keep secrets from the government.

1:19:07 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and when you, when you see odd laws getting created in Australia and New Zealand, you just want to want to remember that's coming from the NSA. That's the five eyes, like that's the NSA, you know extending it, and when you see a lot of those you always want to look at what those, what they're doing there, because they're really small country, like not small, but small in population. You're like why would they care about that? They're not in that much danger, they're not doing the stuff and that's not coming from them.

1:19:33 - Leo Laporte
Sometimes it's coming from Rupert Murdoch, but sometimes it's the NSA.

1:19:36 - Alex Lindsay
That too. Well, I'm not sure who has more baleful influence in Australia, I would say in a MI6 is pretty intense about wanting what they want, you know. So anyway, but but I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's Anyway. All I was gonna say is that it is, as I said, it's energized. All of the stuff is being energized by the intelligence agencies. We should understand they desperately want to keep the phone from getting closed off, like you know, like it's, and there's not really any good. I mean there's. They'll say that there's good reasons, but they're. You know, they have more data than they've ever had in the history of the world about everybody around us.

1:20:07 - Leo Laporte
Again, though, my question is can Apple resist this pressure?

1:20:12 - Alex Lindsay
If people understand where it's coming from, possibly if they take it. That's why it's important for us to bring up the fact that this is not coming out of a vacuum Like this is not just about this issue. This is about you know. You know you gotta be very. People have to understand what their threat vector is. It's not like they'll go well, I'm never gonna use child pornography, so it doesn't bother me but opening up that hole is something that you need to pay attention to.

1:20:39 - Leo Laporte
I would say that they're probably gonna lose this battle, but I don't know how it's gonna end up, and maybe this is the time for people to ensure they have their own encryption solutions ready and downloaded, and deployed.

1:20:54 - Andy Ihnakto
Well, that's the entire issue. If Apple does lose this battle, then it won't matter what kind of encryption solutions, because before it's encrypted it'll be examined.

1:21:06 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's a good point. If you put it on the phone it's in the clear on the phone. Maybe that's the time to stop using phones for this kind of stuff. Use your own Linux-based personal computer or paper. Apple I think we talked about this last week was quick to tell one government regulator nobody uses our apps. They're never the number one apps. But at the same time they've just put up a website, applecom slash apps. All about how great apps by Apple are. I think maybe this was different divisions, kind of the one division said what did you just say about our apps? Wait a minute, hold on.

1:21:51 - Jason Snell
They're pretty damn good. They have to work on it. They have to. They're absolutely doing so badly that they have to promote.

1:21:58 - Leo Laporte
Are they? Are they really? This is it's kind of like Donald Trump saying I'm worth 2.2 billion and then I'm not worth anything, depending on the audience. Depending on the audience, people hate Apple's apps. People love Apple's apps. You be the judge. I would bet because of the tyranny default that almost everybody's using, except apparently in Europe Apple's default apps.

1:22:25 - Andy Ihnakto
It's interesting when you see all these things like collected together and it is actually a very, very impressive like suite of apps.

1:22:32 - Leo Laporte
It's part of the story about when you're the best in class, usually right.

1:22:36 - Andy Ihnakto
Exactly, yeah, the Mac. When you spend quote extra, unquote for a Mac or for an iPhone, it's not necessarily spending extra just for that perfectly chamfered edge. Sometimes it really is because, hey, look at all this, this is not just something that we introduced this year, we have just been consistently making sure that every single app that comes with these devices are important, relevant, useful and competitive with whatever else goes out there. It's your regulator in which we say that, no, they're not competitive at all. Actually, it's also fun because if you scroll down to the very, very bottom, it's like the end of the introductions on Gilgames Island, it's like, and the rest it's like, oh a podcast.

1:23:17 - Leo Laporte
So all right. So at the top you got the big four. You know, final cut, safari messages. And then, oh look, the phone app. Does anybody not use the phone app on an iPhone? I think you have to FaceTime. You know, creativity photos, camera, garage band, productivity notes, reminders, calendar and the rest here on Gilligan's I'll.

1:23:41 - Andy Ihnakto
Apple help. Dvd player is even down there. Oh my God.

1:23:46 - Leo Laporte
Look at this this is, and the rest, this is it.

1:23:49 - Andy Ihnakto
I love it and that's actually good catch.

1:23:51 - Leo Laporte
Good catch. These are all the. You know. They're only worth really an icon like chess. Chess chess is still there. It comes in the back. Still getting it done. Still getting it done. Well, was it DVD player? Oh yeah, that's good DVD player, yeah.

1:24:06 - Andy Ihnakto
Didn't? Didn't Tim Cook say that like someone? Someone tweeted him a question some time ago about gee, why do these things even exist? Or somebody at Apple responded saying that it I don't know what the quote is, but the indication was that if we to re the fact that these apps exist are part of the security signature of the package as a whole, and if we were to remove some of these, we'd have to redo the security, the security package of the signing of the entire package, and that's one of that might be one of the reasons why you know there's still all of these apps. You have to still remember, like, actually do something. Although D7 DVD player, like they can, they can keep that in for free there's a reason why they don't have, like a Blu-ray player. Like even when Blu-rays were still like an actual popular thing, they would have to. They would have to pay for that, to actually use it.

1:24:57 - Leo Laporte
Well, I'm just glad I could still get Texas Hold'em. And you know, with with Microsoft removing WordPad, the only word processor on Microsoft Windows from future versions of Windows, the fact that we've got text edit is something to really be proud of. Actually, it comes in pages, doesn't it? Really, you've got a full word processor for free.

1:25:15 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, it's actually easier, though I use text edit a lot more than I use pages Do you? If I want to build something that looks nice, I use pages. But if you just want to manage text with something that's built into the computer, obviously BB edit and there's lots of other things that are Scrivener and all these other things that are better. But text that have been able to go command I think it's my hand knows what it is command, shift T, like just throw something in there, turn it into plain text, do what you're going to do with it and send it out again. And I don't want to keep it, I don't want to do anything, I just need to process it really quickly. Text edit is a great tool.

1:25:47 - Andy Ihnakto
I use stickies all the time. I can see at least eight stickies on my screen right now. It's like your basic it's like everything, everything from like, oh wait, you're giving information over the phone and or, like I was, I was, I was doing an interview, like on Friday, and, as usual, like here is the name of the person you're talking to.

1:26:08 - Leo Laporte
That's true, don't call him.

1:26:10 - Andy Ihnakto
Don't call him Michael when his name is Steven.

1:26:11 - Leo Laporte
See, we put up a sticky that says his name is Steve, Right there in between Siren and Stopwatch. There's stickies right there on the screen.

1:26:19 - Alex Lindsay
I have to admit that I didn't even know stickies was still a thing, like it was. Like I didn't even know it still existed, like I. Oh, there it is. I just I just typed in stickies and just type in stickies.

1:26:28 - Leo Laporte
Yep, it's in the spotlight search.

1:26:30 - Alex Lindsay
Yep, I use notes for so many like notes is like my core notes is really impressive, actually, I mean, if we're cross platform, it probably use it all the time.

1:26:40 - Leo Laporte
That's all I use because I care. And Apple's point at the very bottom, I think, is important unparalleled privacy and access for all apples. Very good with accessibility, and those are two really good reasons to use Apple's apps Plus. I think they're fairly consistent, aren't they in the UI?

1:26:57 - Alex Lindsay
Yep, I don't know if Texas hold them is, but I think most of them, you can get a lot you can get when you buy a Mac. I think one of the things they're underlined is when you buy a Mac or an iPad or an iPhone, you can do an awful lot without buying anything else. Like you know, it really does have Well, especially because it comes with pages and keynote and garage band, and I mean, I've done, like you know, garage band movie, yeah yeah, it's pretty impressive.

1:27:22 - Leo Laporte
You probably don't need a third party apps for most people really.

1:27:26 - Alex Lindsay
Probably probably for about, you know, a solid 60, 70%. They can probably do most of what they do without buying another.

1:27:34 - Leo Laporte
Some interesting news coming and we'll be talking a lot about iOS 17 and Sonoma. Those will come out probably. What, jason? What is it so? The announcements on Tuesday? Is it Thursday the fall? You'll be able to order on Friday for delivery the 22nd. Is it the? The Thursday before is like the 21st, when the operating systems come out that?

1:28:01 - Jason Snell
week, I think, is generally when it is. It could be at the end of next week, but probably more likely middle of the following week Into the following week.

They liked it. There's a one year where they did it like the next day and all the developers freaked out because their apps weren't ready and people were updating their phones and their apps were breaking. So they've tried, they try to give them a little bit of warning, but it happens pretty fast. And then Mac OS this year I've had it. Os was delayed last year. This year it sounds like it's going to come out simultaneously, but Mac OS generally doesn't arrive until October and I haven't heard anything different about that yet.

1:28:38 - Leo Laporte
So iOS 17 will have a new feature that is very interesting. Alex, you've always thought Apple was moving towards becoming a full search. In fact, I've seen articles now saying X wants to be the everything app. Apple's already there. Apple's done, and one of the new features in iOS 17 will be Apple pay cash payments. Throw out your Venmo, your cash app. You'll be able to pay directly in Apple pay, needless to say I'm shocked, shocked, shocked, so shocked this is actually great, which bothered people.

This is great. No more Zelle. The problem is, of course, that recipients have to be using iPhones, right? You can't send out yeah and be in the US. Oh, and it's US only.

1:29:20 - Jason Snell
It's only in the US. Even now, it's only in the US. This is one of those Apple card, Apple pay cash. There are a bunch of these things that Apple, even after years, has not managed to get out of the US.

1:29:34 - Leo Laporte
Recurring payments are very useful, though. I mean for rent, utilities allowances it's great for allowances, really nice way to do this, and I think this is a smart thing because it's going to move more people even more people into the Apple pay ecosystem. So one of the many things. I'm sure next week we'll have lots more to say. Jason will not be here next Tuesday.

1:29:59 - Jason Snell
I will be down in Cupertino, basically, yeah.

1:30:02 - Leo Laporte
How fun, enjoy yourself. We will be covering Apple's event on Tuesday, 10 am Pacific. We will watch the live stream together with you. Micah Sargent will be here in the big chair. I'll be back east, but I will join in now that I have my nano tubes, my OBS bot and my green screen. I'll be joining in for mom. Mom has faster internet than I do. She's got a very nice fiber connection from Cox so I should be able to do this pretty well.

1:30:35 - Andy Ihnakto
You're going to be downloading a lot of stuff while you're. I am, I am. I can't wait yeah.

1:30:39 - Leo Laporte
Here's the time to get my whole music library back in shape. Finally, finally, time to download Xcode. You know, as a podcaster, working for my mother's basement has always been my dream, so let us take.

1:30:55 - Andy Ihnakto
Well, I found out exactly where everyone said I would. 20 years ago.

1:30:58 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, you thought it was my mom's basement along, and now it really is.

1:31:03 - Andy Ihnakto
Shut up, man, I'm doing my show.

1:31:06 - Leo Laporte
Oh she, yeah, take out the. She's already said she's coming in while I'm doing it. She's already said Don't pick up the phone, mom, come online. She's already told me she's going to be coming right in there.

1:31:22 - Andy Ihnakto
It's going to be fun. It's going to be so weird. You're the series of touch tones like on your audio.

1:31:28 - Leo Laporte
Oh, I am old enough to actually remember those days where you had the modem plugged in on your single phone line. But it wasn't my mom at the time. But I'm not that old.

1:31:44 - Andy Ihnakto
Actually. I still have problems like getting to sleep before like three or four in the morning. I think it's because, like as a kid, I have my first modem and knowing that after 11 is the only time I can be online.

1:31:54 - Leo Laporte
Right, exactly, let's take a little break. Your picks of the week coming up. Next You're watching Mac Break Weekly and, of course, next week it all begins. Excitement begins. If you are not a member of Club Twit yet, I want to encourage you to join the club, because we do have additional features in Club Twit, including Micah Sargent's incredible hands-on Mac. You get ad-free and tracker-free versions of all the shows. You also get a lot of special shows.

Thursday it's a sci-fi lovers delight when we are joined in a fireside chat with Daniel Suarez, author of so many great books Freedom and Demon. We've talked about a lot of his books. We've interviewed him, I think for every single book he's done Hugh Howey, the author of the Wool series which Silo is based on, and Hugh, by the way, got married at Burning man. He had a kind of a muddy wedding at Burning Man's. I think he'll be back and so that'll be interesting. That's this Thursday. If you are a sci-fi fan, I don't ant. Good job scoring an interview with John Scalzi. That will be amazing. That's October 5th. Lots of great stuff. These are events exclusive Renee Richie's coming back in November. Exclusive to our club. We also have the club twit feed with conversations before and after the show that don't make it in the podcast and other things. And really the best part is your access to the Discord, which is a wonderful community, and because it's a gated community, you don't have to worry about vandals, people you know having, you know doing car side shows, doing loop-de-loops in your backyard. No, it's private, it's exclusive, it's a great place, it's a great place to be and we would love to have you. Plus, it really helps us keep the lights on here. I don't know if you've noticed, but advertising sales have really dropped off. I'm looking at Q4. And our best show, I think, is I think is this one is 65% sold out. But many shows are under 50% sold out and usually by this time we've sold them out and that's a little concerning. It hits the bottom line. That's why the club is so important to us. If you're not yet a member, please consider joining If you've got the seven bucks a month. Twittv slash club twit. We do have a wonderful sponsor for this segment of Mac Break Weekly.

When I've used myself ZocDoc oh, I love ZocDoc. It's funny because you know when you go on Amazon you're going to buy something. I'm going to buy the nanotubes. I will look at the reviews. I will read the reviews. I will really make sure I understand the product before I buy it. And that's just a silly little thing. You know a light.

Why can't you do that for your physician, for your dentist, for your chiropractor? You should be able to see verified reviews of them. Well, that's what you've got. With ZocDoc, you could finally do the research you do for even the silliest disco pants or dog hoodies or whatever. For your much more important physicians, your dermatologists, your doctors, your dentists, zockdoc is a place to find and book great doctors. You can narrow them down to ones that take your insurance, that have appointments available, many of them within 24 hours, and you can read verified reviews. And they're very careful to make sure that those reviews are actual patients, so you can see. It's not just is a doctor good or bad, it's much more than that. What's the style, how do they, how do they treat you, how do they act? Some people want a great bedside manner. Some people just say give me the facts, jack.

Zockdoc is a free app where you can find amazing doctors and book appointments online. Yeah, in the app booking appointments with thousands of top rated, patient reviewed doctors and specialists you could filter specifically for the ones that take your insurance were located near you, who treat almost any condition you're searching for. They all have verified reviews from real patients, no bots allowed Now. The average wait time to see a doctor booked on ZocDoc it's fast 24 to 48 hours Wow. You can even score same day appointments with many of these doctors. Once you find the doc you want, book them immediately with just a few app taps. No more waiting awkwardly on hold with a receptionist to explain your bunion problem. You could get it done online. I love it and it's a great app for iOS or Android. In fact, you could go to the website and download the app for free right now. I know you could also go to the app store and do it, but please go to the website so they know you saw it here.

Find and book a top rated doctor today. It is the way doctors now use to reach new patients, and you are a new patient It's about time, frankly, that we could. We could get these reviews and really see what we're going to get ahead of time. Why should you be able to do it with you know dog baskets and not with your doctor. Zockdoc, zocdoccom slash Mac break. Zockdoccom slash Mac break. It's got a great name too ZocDoc, zockdoc Jason Snell. Would you, would you, would you kindly honor us with a pick of the week?

1:37:21 - Jason Snell
I will. I'm going to give you this is. This is actually other than the price, a, I would say, quintessential, alex Lindsay pick. Sorry, alex, it's not, it's a two digit price, but it is a utility that if you need, I guess, to use your iPhone anyway, I use it as a camera holder. I'm going to. My phone is a camera. I'm going to need this for moms, I know so. This, this is from a company called Shaw Shaw way, that's probably just a randomly generated number of letters on, but it's that, oh, there it is I don't know.

So it's got a clamp on it. You screw it to a table.

1:37:56 - Leo Laporte

1:37:56 - Jason Snell
And then it's got a very long bendy arm.

1:37:59 - Leo Laporte
Snack yes.

1:38:00 - Jason Snell
Very long. It's like a two foot long, three foot long arm that bends in any direction you want, which is very clever, and then at the other end it's a generic phone holder, so it's just a clamp that you open up and put your phone into. I use this every week because we record video for one of my podcasts and it's it's an offset. We don't want it to look like we're looking into a zoom window like we are for this show. It's sort of like for clips later, for like tick, tock and stuff like that.

And so I set it offset and just let it run during the show, and this is how I do that, and also it's if you're in a position where you need to put your camera somewhere or your iPhone and use it as continuity camera. You can clamp this to a table or desk or whatever and clamp it to the headboard of your bed and you get clamped. I mean a clamp, it's a clamp. It doesn't require its compatibility is. Is there a thin part that a clamp will fit on? Then this will work and then you can bend it into whatever direction you need to bend it to get it exactly where you need it to go, so that it will 30 inches of gooseneck, that's more gooseneck than anyone else More than a goose, for sure, anyway how much would you pay?

well, guess what it's 16 bucks. Oh man 16, to quote Andy and I'd code a paraphrase Andy and I'd code 16 damn dollars. It's just super convenient. That's that's you know, if you need it. But if you've ever been in one of those situations where you're like I just need to put my iPhone right there, I need that camera right there, this will do it.

And so if you like continuity cameras, a great example. If you, if you want to have a camera kind of off a little bit and it's an awkward place, if there's a place for clamping, you can do it.

1:39:43 - Leo Laporte
I've ordered it. It will come tomorrow. I do have a question, though. I see this, you know there's somebody's putting it on their, on their breakfast, in bed breakfast tray. That's kind of cool. But what is that gray rubber thing right there? What is what is that? What are they eating? What the hell is that Did? Shall we just throw something else in as a little?

1:40:04 - Jason Snell
Easter egg off of a camera during the photo shoot.

1:40:08 - Leo Laporte
Is that a UFO? I think it's an identified aerial phenomenon.

1:40:12 - Andy Ihnakto
It's weird, that's what it looks like, it's a hundred and eighty minute egg.

1:40:19 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, this breakfast. Frankly I'm going to say, not that appetizing.

1:40:24 - Jason Snell
The idea that you'd have an iPhone on a long arm. Clamp to your little tray Also not appetizing. Yeah but it does point out the utility of it, which is, if you can clamp somewhere, you can get that phone in a position wherever you want. So, yeah, if you wanted to use this to like read or watch a video on your iPhone in bed and you can clamp it to the headboard, you totally could do that too, because it's really it's it's flexible.

1:40:46 - Leo Laporte
It's lovely, I just bought it. So now I bought the nano tubes. 16 bucks. I got my iPhone. I'm getting, I'm getting close to having the perfect setup for mom's basement and the and not co your pick of the week.

1:41:05 - Andy Ihnakto
Just jolted me out of into awareness because I was looking at this pick of the week, which is amazing book that got on kickstart Real Harris, yes, yes, our buddy will. It's 42 the wildly improbable ideas of Douglas Adams. An amazing hardcover that is basically one of the most insightful looks into the minds of one of the most incredible minds that have ever put to put pen to paper. What they did was they. They had access to essentially all of his papers, all of his ephemera, all of his notes, all of his notebooks, covering pretty from the start of it, from from the start of his school life to like the very last things that he was working on and writing before he unfortunately was taken, taken from us so young, and every page of it is like you can't turn to a single page that doesn't like just draw you in, like here is like, for instance, here is like. You'll recognize the image writer printing. This is some of his first draft from so long and thanks for all the fish.

A lot of the stuff, if you're a writer, is so ennobling and empowering because a lot of this is like note cards. He would write him to himself notebooks where, as there is a on a shelf over there is a box of like, beautiful, like and different like spiral notebooks that I bought like when traveling. Like here's a Japanese, I'm in Japan, so hey is the stationers for? Ooh, that's a beautiful like little notebook that'd be perfect for me to write in and like. I've got like a dozen of them where the first three pages are filled in, the rest are blank and any show in the book shows us a lot of that stuff, a lot of the stuff like we're the vomit.

Drafts of some of his books are not just like we see the story taking shape as he's writing it, but he's also writing notes to himself and like both encouraging himself and also sort of like scolding himself, saying and then, oh God, I don't know what happens, like maybe they wind up at Lord's Cricket's ground or something, maybe something better than that, but anyway, the whole thing. The only the only point of this is that we get them from here to there and it's like, oh, my God, he, he suffered. We know from his, we know from his, from his problems with deadlines. Oh, he suffered, not not more than his editors did, but he, but he absolutely suffered. But, man, it is such an insight into not only not only the course that his life took, but also the details of like how all of that went and what he was feeling and what he was thinking all the time.

And there's a whole section of just like letters to letters to Douglas Adams from like Neil Gaiman and Marco Buchanan, stephen Fry, robbie Stamp, people who knew him and like wish they could like talk to him again, and it's just such a. I mean, this isn't like a cheap sort of production. The pages are nice and thick. You know it's going to it's so. They know that this is going to like wind up like on sofas, in beds, anywhere, but like safe on a bookshelf.

1:44:09 - Jason Snell
It's going to wind up on a sofa that's lodged right in a way where it can't ever be removed from that.

1:44:16 - Andy Ihnakto
And you're not going to find out why you can't get it, get the sofa out there until the very last chapter. Oh, it was explained, but not to the last.

1:44:23 - Leo Laporte
This is from the most delightful this is from the publisher Unbound Will Harris, who you've heard many times on our shows. This is his new project. He's become a book publisher and they publish really interesting, unusual books like this. 42 the wildly improbable ideas of Douglas Adams. Will told us about this. The editor, by the way, kevin John Davies, is being widely praised for his good sense in the stuff that he picked, the stuff that he decided to not include a treasure trove of Douglas Adams content and yeah, people were very excited about this.

I said how did you get it? Because it says here doesn't come out till September 19.

1:45:06 - Andy Ihnakto
I get it back. I back the Kickstarter. It's one of the great things about backing books on Kickstarter where I got an email saying, oh God, a piece of spam saying, oh, your UPS package has been delivered, nice try. I'm not going to click on that Like, oh wow, oh, that's right. I did order this like a year and a half ago, yeah, but yeah, I mean I could, like I just could not be happier with this, and a lot of this is like. I'm not going to go into it over and over again, but like when he's done such a great job.

I think one of my favorite pieces he did was his last chance to see book, which I think is one of the best things he wrote was when he undertook, like, an expedition all over the world to find some of the most endangered species on the planet. And one page is I mean, if you're a fan of Douglas Adams, you've already read the book. But here is, like his own they own the type written page he made to himself of everything that he was packing. And here is the letter that he wrote to the BBC saying Hi, I've been given a $500,000 advance but it's not enough to fund the expedition. Do you want to send, like, maybe, a sound recorder, send a photographer and we can make this into a BBC series? And they said, yes, we would very much like that. It's just like it really is, just like saying, oh, by the way, here's a trunk full of papers from both Douglas Adams, feel free to rummage through it. And it's like oh, I think.

1:46:17 - Leo Laporte
I would like to do that. Yeah, great stuff. This is. This is so cool. I'm so glad it exists. I'm thrilled that you kickstarted it. That's. The whole premise of Unbound is that these are nerdy volumes. Whoops, these are nerdy volumes that you could go to a crowdfunding site and get people to support the publishing of it. And Will's done a great job. They have. I have. He sent me. I hope he'll send me this one. He sent me a stack of them like F yeah, video games, the life and extra lives of a professional nerd or taming gaming by Andy Robertson or shareware heroes. But my favorite, I think, is, is this things I learned from Mario's butt. It's pictures of buttocks from from video games. That's. That's the. That's so you could. You know you could see going to Simon Schuster and pitching this and them saying no, but no, I to Will.

1:47:14 - Andy Ihnakto
Harris credit. I know that was somebody's PhD thesis, that they turn it into a book, you think. What field did they get the PhD in?

1:47:23 - Leo Laporte
I want to know but ecology. So it is the. It is just a series of bottoms from from video games. It's subtitled a series of gaming but critiques. So there you go.

1:47:36 - Andy Ihnakto
You want to have that on the coffee table when you're, when you're, when you're, when your girlfriend or boyfriend or spouse's parents are coming to visit for the first time.

1:47:43 - Leo Laporte
This is kind of cool. This is an atlas of cities from video games, virtual cities from games, I mean he's. This is so cool, I'm so glad. I don't know if you've met Will in your travels around Twitter. Wonderful fellow who has done many things. This is his latest venture and I think it's going to be his most successful again.

1:48:02 - Andy Ihnakto
I could not possibly be happier with this book.

1:48:04 - Leo Laporte
So cool, 42. You can preorder it on Amazon now or you can go to the Kickstarter. It's actually ships in just a couple of weeks, yep, september 19th. Oh yeah, I'm reading some really sterling reviews. This is really a good job Missed. We're going to tap cap things off here with Mr Alex Lindsay and another book, another book, yeah.

1:48:27 - Alex Lindsay
So I the book, the book that I'm going to recommend. I go to a bookstore probably once or twice a month. There is a bookstore in Berkeley called Builders Builders bookstore.

1:48:37 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, that's famous.

1:48:38 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, it's my favorite bookstore, yeah, and it's just design stuff. So it's design architecture, some cooking, some, you know, garden design, but it has all these technical manuals on the back and it's still surviving. Still. You know there's still five or six people every time you walk into the tiny little store and on 4th Street and I go in and I take my kids, so I go and like with the kids and the rule is they can buy any book they want and I allow myself to buy a book when I'm there and that's the only time I buy physical books and I keep on buying the same the book, different books from the same person, and I thought I'd probably recommend it because I don't buy a lot of books and it's a series.

The one that I'm that I put in here was 101 things I learned in product design school and it's kind of like really short, like it's not. This isn't like a big heavy. I saw I have these books laying around and I open one of them every morning to think about it. So it's kind of like my little pattern of I get up in the morning and I read one that might say shapes are loaded or elegance is the opposite of extravagance. And then there's a bunch of like. You know there's a description, you know. So like one of them might be, design is a physical act. Design requires deep reflection, but one cannot design, but one cannot design in purely cognitive thinking mode. Active doing helps us figure out what it, what the thing is about, right, anyway, it just it. So what happened is this guy, matthew Frederick. He has all these 101 things I learned about something, right? And he's like 10 of these or 15 of these books and they're about architecture, psychology, you know all kinds of different culinary school, and what I love is they've just distilled these ideas down into something that doesn't take a lot of time but I can open it up. It's their independent thoughts that are that I can open up and kind of, I wouldn't say meditate on, but but I usually read the one.

Whatever I read. I read right before I make breakfast, which takes a little time because I like making breakfast. So, and I just love these books, and so they're about, you know they're like 10 bucks on Kindle, but I don't I wouldn't recommend getting them on Kindle because I realized I don't read them when they're on my kid on Kindle. I read them when they're stacked on my desk. So yeah, so there's something about that that I bought a couple of them on Kindle and I ended up rebinding them on in.

There's something about them sitting here and me picking one up and just opening it up while I'm. You know, when I'm just getting ready, I get, I get up about four, so I get up and I and I open it up while I'm just getting things started to set up before I go do other things and I just find there's something about them that are it's really really, it's really inspiring, you know. So I just I know that it's. It seems simple.

At first I thought they were kind of junk books, you know like, oh, it's just kind of you got a bunch of cute, but what he's done is he partners with. You know, it's always like he partners with people who are in that industry and then they try to figure out how to distill down. As best I can tell, it's not like I've ever talked to him or I don't know the guy, but I just that's what it feels like. He like works with someone in the industry and tries to distill things to think about and doesn't just affect product design, it just helps you think about those things.

1:51:40 - Leo Laporte
Anyway, he's done this longer than we've been doing a Twitter since 2007.

1:51:45 - Andy Ihnakto
Yeah, yeah.

1:51:46 - Leo Laporte
Architecture school, film school, engineering school 101 things I learned in product design school. Matthew Frederick. What a great idea. I love he's got culinary school.

1:51:57 - Alex Lindsay
I mean business and it's all things that apply to life. I wouldn't look at it like, oh, I'm going to architecture, I should do this. It's just, it's distilled thoughts, like individual thoughts, into something. You know, there's always this I wrote you a long letter because I didn't have time to write you a short one. Well, he took the time to write 101 short ones for each one of these things and distilled like ideas. And when I looked at the film I can't remember what it some specific one from film school and I don't have that book right within arms, like. But I was like, yeah, these are all great. Like as someone who, when he's in an area, that, I know, you know it.

1:52:27 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, yeah, I'm like these are, these are what's got one for law school. I wonder if I could pass the bar after I read it.

1:52:36 - Alex Lindsay
Anyway, it's a very cool.

1:52:38 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and, and start with the 101 things I learned in product design school. It's on Amazon or go to the builders bookstore and support your local independent.

1:52:49 - Alex Lindsay
It's the reason I buy them from there.

1:52:50 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, specifically because I want to buy them from Amazon.

1:52:53 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, the distinction is is that it's curated in a way that I can browse great books Right. There's there's a 50% chance I'll like almost every book that's in that bookstore and I wouldn't just find it searching the web, you know, or searching Amazon or knowing, like, if I want to, I go there to explore books and and so, and I take my kids there to explore books and I think it's important that we keep on bookstore. I don't think that every bookstore has to stay, stay in business, but I think bookstores like that that are carefully curated, I think we need to support. So if you're in the Bay Area, you should go to the builders bookstore and fourth street right next to the store.

1:53:32 - Leo Laporte

1:53:32 - Alex Lindsay
And, and and buy a book.

1:53:36 - Leo Laporte
Wow, I think I might buy them all. These look great. They're so good. I have a good trigger like a.

1:53:41 - Alex Lindsay
I don't know why I haven't bought them all. It's not like they're that expensive, but I keep on going. Well, I'll buy this one and work through it before, and I've got like five of them now. So it's you know, they're all really good.

1:53:50 - Leo Laporte
This is. There are only two ways to cook. This is from the culinary school Dry cooking or moist cooking. That's it. It's easy, it's simple, just like cat food Dry or wet. Very good, andy, you're right. That is that for this edition of Mac Break Weekly. Next week, we will have much to discuss, although, what do you think, jason? Will there be surprises on Tuesday?

1:54:21 - Jason Snell
I don't know, I mean little surprises, they're always little surprises, but I think that iPhone, apple Watch, maybe some update to like AirPods is probably the model, and then they'll save some stuff for next month, but nothing nothing, we're going to go.

1:54:34 - Leo Laporte
We're always a surprise.

1:54:35 - Jason Snell
Oh my God, can you believe it? I think I'm looking. I mean, what I'm looking forward to is the details of especially if they do that periscope camera Like how do they brand that? How do they describe that? What is the interface? What is the interface? What are the little Apple touches that make that different from what we've seen elsewhere? Because that's it's all about the details.

1:54:52 - Andy Ihnakto
Will there be an ultra? They're going to put a name on the periscope camera so that you don't so that to make it think as though they invented this thing and it never existed before they did Ultra zoom.

1:55:03 - Jason Snell
I think it's a real an open question whether the word periscope is even uttered in the thing. Right, because no, no, no, it will be. Mike Hurley, on our podcast earlier this week, suggested that it would be like the like the magic. Oh, optics or magic, again they'll brand it.

1:55:22 - Andy Ihnakto
They'll be. They'll be a brand name for whatever it is. We call it the Newton lens, Just as Sir Isaac Newton mastered optics Galileo, the Galileo.

1:55:33 - Leo Laporte
Who was it? The ground, his own lenses. Was it Kepler? The ground, his own lenses so he could observe the rotation of the planets? Well, we'll find out Tuesday, 10am pacific, 1pm eastern. Join us for that live stream immediately after a Mac break. I had Jason Snell sans Jason Snell, I'm sad to say, mac break weekly, but we'll get Jason on the following week and find out what he thinks, because he's going to get hands on next Tuesday, which is exciting. That's really cool. Thank you, jason. You can find Jason at sixcolorscom. Sixcolorscom slash Jason for all of his podcasts. What's the name of the one you do with Mr Hurley on relayfm?

1:56:09 - Jason Snell
It's called upgrade and it's every Monday and we have fun. We did a draft where we try to predict exactly what will happen and then next week we will score the draft and talk about everything else.

1:56:19 - Leo Laporte
Oh, that's a good idea, but the most important thing is to who won the draft. It's very important we do a bingo card, but I think a draft sounds more exciting.

1:56:28 - Jason Snell
You know, we try, we try to keep it interesting.

1:56:32 - Leo Laporte
Very cool. So listen to Monday's episode of upgrades so that you'll be no. You know you'd be prepared when the day comes, the day arrives. Thank you, jason, andy and Aka. When are you going to be on GBH next Next?

1:56:43 - Andy Ihnakto
Friday at 1230 at the Boston Public Library. So come on down and buy yourself a cup of coffee and a lovely trash brownie Trash cookie, meaning every ingredient in the big cookie which is it's not good.

1:56:55 - Leo Laporte
It's not for the trash it is it is. That's a bad nutrition.

1:57:00 - Andy Ihnakto
Nutritionally it's very iffy. However, it's delicious. Yeah Around 1230. Or listen to it live or later at WGBH news I.

1:57:08 - Leo Laporte
H N A T K O. I have no idea how to spell and not go. That's how you remember it. That's the mnemonic. Thank you, andrew, I'll see you next week. Yes, absolutely Okay, I can bring lights. I got lights. I'm thinking we should. I should meet you, not for work, but go to a nice, a fine diner in your neck of the woods, or we will make that happen. Clam cakes at Dune Brothers, if they're still open after Labor Day. That's the. That's the place we will.

1:57:35 - Andy Ihnakto
There are options that we will pursue, we will make that happen. I will adjust to your, to your, to your incredibly busy schedule as a Titan of communications. It's actually not that busy and it's a loving story.

1:57:42 - Leo Laporte
It's not busy at all.

1:57:44 - Andy Ihnakto
I look forward to seeing you and also if my, if my visits to relatives or anything to be, there's probably a certain day where they're going to say so. Andy, you got any plans for today that you're not? I gotta stay here all day long, but do you have any plans to leave?

1:57:58 - Leo Laporte
Not, mom, mom will be holding on tight, but I will be. I will want a little breather once in a while. Mr Alex Lindsey, of course office hours does their own thing for Apple events and you're going to want to be there for the excitement office hoursglobal. I don't know why I'm promoting a competitor, but because it's better, You're going to do a better job. It's different, it's good we were.

1:58:20 - Alex Lindsay
We had, we had peak office hours last week. We had a great thing about project management on Monday. Stu Mashowitz, my old, my old buddy from ILM, was on. On Tuesday, robert Scoville from Abbott was talking about surround sound. On Wednesday, talk about plates how you do movie plates. On Thursday and on Friday we had world experts for NDI workflows, you know, from like five different countries, you know, discussing stuff. It was really a great one. And then we capped it all off with having Andy on gray mattershow. Oh yeah, so it just came out today, so, and it was a fantastic conversation.

1:58:58 - Andy Ihnakto
A lot of great questions. Thank you everybody who sent in questions.

1:59:00 - Leo Laporte
I'm going to guess that Andy's a pretty good rec on tour. Yeah, I don't know why?

1:59:06 - Andy Ihnakto
I think that, well, you know, my time, my time has, as one of the hangers on of cold Porter, left me with a lot of stories. Let me thank you, let me tell you.

1:59:17 - Alex Lindsay
What is the URL cause I'm going to the wrong green gray matter dot show. There we go and it is anyway. So Andy's up there right now and you can download those, those, those podcasts, and it's. It's a really great one, so I would highly recommend it.

1:59:37 - Leo Laporte
Michael Krasny hosts gray matter episode 49 in season one with Andy and not co. And, of course, if you want to be at office hours anytime this week, what is IBC? The countdown to IBC has started.

1:59:52 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, so we're we're covering, we have a team, our European team. We're we're covering more and more events, right. So we're, you know, slowly ramping event coverage up and rethinking it. You know, like what do we, how, what's the best way to bring people to events? And so I just I did see graph a couple of weeks ago with a team down in LA and we did NAB and Cinegear and we have a European team is covering IBC next week. So the end of next week is the, that's the, basically the NAB of of Europe. So all the video stuff, you know, videographics, everything, and so it's at the rye in Amsterdam, and so there's a whole separate team that's going to be managing that. Before in after hours, before office hours on Friday, they'll be wandering around, kind of a more informal version of that, and then on office hours on Saturday, just during our normal office hours time, they'll be coming in live from the, from IBC. So they're, they're covering that.

So it should be a should be great, they're it's a great team and it's a really fun. I mean it's. It's different. You know, it's like NAB, but European, just cooler in some ways, and but it should be. It's really. It's a hard one to cover because the rye is so complex. I don't know if you've ever been to the rye, but it's complex. I have not. I figure out where you are all the time, but we're looking forward to it. They did it last year. They did a fantastic job, and so that's what we're building up for, and then we'll be doing NAB a month later in New York, so that'll be the next.

2:01:16 - Leo Laporte
Nice. Look forward to this. This is going to be something the best thing to do to go to office hours at global and you can see all of the many multifarious things.

2:01:27 - Alex Lindsay
Alex is up there, it'll say join here and you sign up there, and then you get an email every day.

2:01:31 - Leo Laporte
It tells you what we're doing. So we're doing something different every day so you'll get. You can join the mailing list. Yep, yeah, thank you. Alex Lindsey, andy and Akko Jason Snell. Thanks to all of you who have joined us. Thanks to our club twit members. I have many thanks. Thanks to John Ashley, our producer and board op, thanks to John Slanina the other John who is our studio manager, thanks to Burke McQuinn, who keeps the equipment running, thanks to our CEO, lisa LaPorte, and thanks most of all to you for being here.

We do Mac Break Weekly every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern. That would be 1800, or is it 19? No, 1800 UTC. I guess you know we're summertime's coming for us next month, I believe, but some of you may have already gone to summertime. So use the? U or go off summertime. I should say Use the UTC time. 1800 UTC because we move, we move around.

If you want to watch live, livetwittv is the place to be. Chat with us, open to all our IRC. You can use a browser to go to IRCTwittv. Of course, if you're in the club, get behind the velvet rope into the club Twit Discourse. We talk there as well. After the fact, on demand versions of all of our shows available on our website, in this case twittv slash mbw for Mac Break Weekly. When you're there, you'll also see a link to our YouTube channel dedicated to Mac Break Weekly. We've got audio and video, silly me. You also can subscribe. There are a link to a couple of different podcatchers, or choose your own and search for Mac Break Weekly. If you subscribe, you'll have it by the end of the day, tuesday, just in time for your Wednesday morning listening. Thank you, everybody for being here. Now it is my sad duty to say get back to work. Break time's over. See you next time, bye, bye.

2:03:21 - Mikah Sargent
Oh, hey, that's a really nice iPhone you have there. You totally picked the right color. Hey, since you do use an iPhone and maybe use an iPad or an Apple Watch or an Apple TV, well, you should check out iOS today. That's a show that I, Micah Sargent, and my co-host, Rosemary Orchard, host every Tuesday right here on the twit network. It covers all things iOS TVOS, HomePod, OS, WatchOS, iPadOS. It's all the OS's that Apple has on offer, and we love to give you tips and tricks about making the most of those devices, checking out great apps and services and answering your tech questions. I hope you check it out.

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