MacBreak Weekly 908 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

0:00:00 - Leo Laporte
It's time for MacBreak Weekly. Andy's here, Alex is here, Jason's here, the whole gang is here. We're going to have Jason's longer term review of the Vision Pro. Andy's got a really good pick the return of a very famous to-do app. We also talked to Alex Lindsey about the Super Bowl graphics. There's a whole lot more to come. MacBreak Weekly is next. This is MacBreak Weekly, episode 908, recorded Tuesday, February 13th 2024. Crisco and Karo.

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It's time for MacBreak Weekly, the show. We get together to talk about the latest news from the Vision Pro no, no, from Apple. We do have some inevitably Vision Pro conversations. It's going to dwindle, though, over time. In a few months you'll forget. It even came out Mr Jason Snows here at His Vision Pro review is out, Did you?

0:02:19 - Jason Snell
watch the Super Bowl on Vision Pro. No, I watched the Super Bowl on my couch with my wife on our 4K TV, and we were just fine.

0:02:28 - Leo Laporte
That's why the guy at Tom's Guide stopped watching it. In his Vision Pro, he said, is dog barfed on the couch, mark Spoonar? And after his dog barfed on the couch he realized maybe I should pay attention to my son who is sitting right next to me. What you want? Something Also here, Andy Ihnatko. WGBH in Boston. Hello, Andrew.

0:02:51 - Andy Ihnatko
Hello, I just wanted to ask you I should have done this before we actually started what does your mom charge for studio space? Because the snow is coming down, the wind is picking up. I might lose power.

0:03:03 - Leo Laporte
I might need a different studio Run over to the house. Yeah, it's got apparently a huge snowstorm coming your way.

0:03:11 - Jason Snell
I like this idea. It's the twit New England House studio. We'll set that up there and anyone can go.

0:03:18 - Leo Laporte
You know who's in the neighborhood, who has a very nice podcast studio, as the former host of this week in enterprise tech, lou Moresca, and in fact he told me when I visited my mom. He said you want to come over and use the studio? He said that's fine, but I'll let you know and you stay, stay, stay in touch. How many feet are out there right now?

0:03:41 - Andy Ihnatko
I was. I actually had to go out an hour ago just to say that I was out in this winter wonderland, because it is just so damn New England. It's beautiful, village, picturesque. So we're up. We've got about six to eight, still coming down pretty hard. We're supposed to get eight to 10. Holy, holy, but it's not like. It's not necessarily. We're not getting constant high wind that's usually what you worry about. That's not terribly wet, so I don't think we'll get any power problems, but nonetheless it's like it's. I've been we. The thing is like you. You and I grew up in New England like we're. We're used to the idea of we get these beautiful snowman building, snow, snowfalls, like at least once a month, when it seems like like when we were kids. And now it's like oh look, here's the one that we're going to get for the entire winter.

0:04:21 - Leo Laporte
Really warmed up quite a bit. Here's Dick D Bartolo's picture of a Riverside Park in New York city where I used to play in the sand and then the snow. And also with this, alex Lindsay, I watched your your dissection of the Super Bowl graphics this morning. You had a good time, really, is it? You know what it does, you don't? They're so subliminal. When you're watching the game you don't really appreciate the stuff they're doing until you watch Alex dissect it and it's like wow.

0:04:53 - Alex Lindsay
You know, that's how I got into doing graphics for TV 30 years ago was I would take the graphics from a high end show and I would literally go through it frame by frame and then just reproduce it and and I would just get it to a looked identical and it was just so I could learn how to do it.

0:05:08 - Leo Laporte
You know it was, and so although 30 years ago, for a long time, the graphics not the same. We're very cheesy.

0:05:15 - Alex Lindsay
So good. Now, I mean the graphics on the Super Bowl and the Super Bowl, fifa, super the and the Olympics. Those are the big three, right? That's where you see, and really the Olympics and the Super Bowl are the big two, that that you just see this incredible amount of money being spent on graphics and just some of the art direction and and you know CBS was no different your video has now been blocked by the NFL, so I enjoyed.

0:05:40 - Leo Laporte
I'm glad I watched it live. Yeah.

0:05:43 - Alex Lindsay
Oh, usually, usually it just gets lagged yeah.

0:05:46 - Leo Laporte
I like the thumbnail. You had the the the slime from the Nickelodeon version, which I I couldn't bring myself to watch, although I wish I had now. I'm so depressed.

0:05:58 - Alex Lindsay
Well, that gives everybody a reason to watch these live.

0:06:00 - Leo Laporte
Yes, yeah, cause they're gone. Yeah, this is a the Cowboys game, but wow that, that slime monster is pretty ugly. Yeah, are you feeling okay, jason? I know there's been some black crepe hung around our house.

0:06:18 - Jason Snell
Yeah, you know it's a. You know my wife has a saying because we have been taking guests to college football games for years over in Berkeley and the saying is if you want to guaranteed happy experience at the end, don't do sports.

0:06:35 - Leo Laporte
That's not what it's about there's a winner and there's a loser almost all the time. There's always going to be I.

0:06:40 - Jason Snell
I am happy that it was an exciting game and it went down to the last. And the fact is, whoever lost it was going to have a litany of regrets, because both teams made enough mistakes that any one of them would have changed the entire complexion of the game. So it happens right and when.

0:06:55 - Leo Laporte
I was growing up they won five Super Bowls, so I can't complain to them. I wanted number six. Sure, I was fixated on the missed point. Extra point, because that's it's just like such a little dumb mistake, and it changed everything, right.

0:07:10 - Jason Snell
And, to the credit of the telecasters, they said a lot has happened since then, when they brought up the myth because it's like, oh, we wouldn't have gone into overtime and it's like, well, that's not true, because they were down four so they wouldn't have kicked it the field goal, they would have gone for it. Touchdown would have put them up instead, Like there's a whole you can't do the what it could have done after that.

0:07:28 - Alex Lindsay
And there were some fumbles and some interceptions and someone, a ball, hit some of the back of someone's foot Like there's so many things that happen there, that guy's going to have a bad month.

0:07:36 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, he's going to miss a lot of short puts for the next month.

0:07:42 - Leo Laporte
That was a tough one. That was a really tough one. Anyway, anyway, enough of that, enough of that, it's over, it's done. Here's to next season, where we won't in fact have anywhere near the same quality team. So it's just pretty much. That was our shot. No, it's lost. I'm so sad. How about that vision pro? Cheer me up. You had your. You have your review up on six colorscom.

0:08:07 - Jason Snell
I mean I feel if people like reading long reviews of computer hardware, they should read it, because it's 8,000 words about my thoughts about the vision pro and he counted everyone as he went by the way all the podcasts that I'm on I mean we've been talking about this for a while that all helped inform what I was thinking about the product, but the short version of it if there can be one for an 8,000 word review really is that it reminds me of the early days of personal computers, where they were expensive. You bought it not because it was practical but because it felt like it felt like it might be the future and you wanted to get a glimpse of it, and that everybody was. Well, this is a far more sophisticated product than you know an Apple 2 Plus was. The fact is, it's still an expensive tech product in search of an application, and not not like an app, but like, literally like applied. How do I use this to get something done?

And I think, like those early personal computers, apple is putting this out there and figuring it is the future and we will figure out what you do with it.

But we might as well ship it. And I just I get very same vibes of every computer salesman in 1980 who was like, oh, yeah, recipes will be great for this thing that in today's dollars is $5,000, right, like, yeah, you'll do that. And it's like I don't know, it's impractical but a big swing and I like a lot of the things that they've done. And then there's a bunch of stuff that we're going to look back and we're going to be like what was that? And it is, as we said last week here, a 1.0 operating system, and I love a good 1.0 operating system because it's so fascinating of like Apple has been so iterative for so long with their operating systems and their hardware and all of that. And this is just weird and new and you can see the places where the paint hasn't dried and I love that about it. It's, it's exciting to see something this strange from Apple.

0:10:04 - Leo Laporte
I thought that was a good analogy to compare it to the Apple II or the Commodore 64 or the Vic 20 or whatever. It is very much kind of like that. There is a difference, though. Back then that was the personal computer. There was no other personal computer. There's no other way to do that computing in your house Today. There are many, many other choices you could make that would accomplish much the same thing as the Vision Pro.

0:10:28 - Jason Snell
Although I would. I would argue that what the Vision Pro will ultimately be great for is not something that the other things are for right. Like I, I think if that's all it is, I will be disappointed If all it is is like an iPad replacement, like if, for it to succeed, I think it does need to do something that you can't currently do, and I don't know what that is Like. There are, there are a bunch of choices, and some of them might be better or some of them might be, might be worse. I did have somebody tell me well, yeah, but we, they weren't that different. We had typewriters back in the 70s. I'm like, okay, fine, I'm not going to litigate how different computers were in the 70s, but, but anyway, I think. But to your point, I agree.

0:11:05 - Leo Laporte
I have bought the Atari 400, but knowing full well the very severe limitations. But that was a personal computer I could have on my desk and I there was no other way to go that way.

0:11:17 - Alex Lindsay
So when I would say, when I got the Apple IIE, no one else in the house used it. It's not like someone else had some other use for it, it was just this random thing that I sat there, and it wasn't very useful, but it was.

You had to type in stuff from a magazine and you basically yeah, I mean, you were, basically there, was, you were just kind of feeding that in. I you know. I will say that I get. I keep getting surprised by the Vision Pro, in the sense that I'll complain about something one day and the next day, like I was complaining about the, the personas, and then on Friday I spent like an hour talking to a friend you know over FaceTime. And we're sitting there opening, sharing USDZ models and sharing photos and doing other things and looking at each other and like let me send you this, let me send you that we were looking at a bunch of things and it wasn't because we were trying to experiment with it, we were talking about those models.

0:12:01 - Leo Laporte
You were actually using it. Yeah, yeah.

0:12:02 - Alex Lindsay
I was actually using it and it was totally and I couldn't believe when I finished it. We had been sitting there talking for an hour like an I and there was some point where his persona was no longer. I wasn't really thinking about it anymore, you know, and and I think that that was an interesting translate, because before that I hadn't really liked the idea. I was like I'm never going to use FaceTime and I was like, okay, maybe I will Like, maybe maybe I'll use this more often, because it's the interaction between the graphics and me talking to them. I'm not trying to figure out like, I'm literally just sending them over things, and then we're both, you know, we're looking at those things and rotating them around and talking about it, and that's. That was much more seamless than it is and any other platform right now, and so I think that that kind of thing is going to be really interesting and I think that again, we are.

I would say we probably have seen between now and we're probably seeing 20% of what we're going to see between now and the end of June. So when we're making decisions, it's going to. I think we're going to see a lot happening over the next couple of months. I think that you know. I think that WWC is probably going to be a pretty big year for Apple. There was a point released.

0:13:07 - Leo Laporte
That fixes that problem of if you forget your pin so that you can reset the Vision Pro, you don't have to go into the Apple Store. But there's a lot more coming in 1.1, including improved avatars. Although it sounds like, jason, you had the same experience as Alex. Once you're actually in the, you did a podcast in it. Once you're actually in it, you kind of forget the uncanny valley.

0:13:29 - Jason Snell
Yeah, I think that part. It's so easy to make fun of the those digital personas because they look uncanny, because they do, but I'm not denying that. I guess what I'm saying is, once it's it's somebody you know and you're having a conversation with them and you hear their voice and and you give it a few minutes of context, I do think it all kind of like falls away. So there's an initial like oh, this is weird, but I think you get over it pretty fast. Yeah, they totally need to be better and less uncanny and you know whole litany of other things about ways that they need to improve and give people more options.

But I will say I I went into it. I was really repelled by the first time I saw a digital persona and I thought, with somebody I know and we are, I'm focusing on our conversation, it works in that, for me at least, it works. In that scenario where once I'm talking to one of my friends for five minutes, I'm just talking to my friend and the persona is just it's fought. My brain is like, okay, we'll let that one through. That is actually your friend.

0:14:30 - Leo Laporte
What? Yeah, I kind of would expect that Is it better than FaceTime? I mean like normal FaceTime?

0:14:35 - Jason Snell
I think it's better than FaceTime if for no other reason, then you can't see yourself, and so you don't.

you aren't checking to make sure your angle yeah your angle is right, and it's not just like vanity. It's also like am I in frame? Am I like how do I? And with Vision Pro, you just you don't use it, which we should probably do that. Anyway, I'm literally staring at myself right now while we're talking, right, but at the same time, there's something nice about that, that part of it. So I think it's a good first start. I mean, you got to start somewhere, but they're not. They're not as laughably bad as you might think from like a still or even a video of someone you don't know. I think it's different when you're in it.

0:15:18 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, and it's kind of weird, but I think that the $3,500 price tag as much as it's keeping most people out of this, either because they actually can't afford it or because it's way more than they want to risk that might work out to be an advantage, because it really is putting it in the right perspective that this is not necessarily. They are selling it in Apple stores, but they are not intending this as a mass market consumer device not yet and if the price doesn't put you off, you are probably the right person to buy this.

0:15:45 - Leo Laporte
Well, good luck, because I have a feeling it's going to get a longer and longer lead time to get one, Although if there are returns, this is the week they'll be returned.

0:15:55 - Jason Snell
Yeah, and there will be some, and I wonder what they'll do to refurb those or if they'll. But yeah, I think it's. I think it works in Apple's favor that this is a low volume product. Right, because it's a 1.0. People who want it are going to be able to get it. But it's good, I think, if most people who might one day buy this do not have to experience, you know, staring into the maw of a 1.0 OS release right.

0:16:23 - Alex Lindsay
I think that may be okay and I think that the folks that did dive into it, that bought it, are the kind of folks that are. They knew what they were getting. They knew what they were doing. I think for the most part, they knew what they were getting themselves into. Like, I get to be, you know, part of what I get to do is be part of that. You're the weirdos. I get to be the gamma tester, you know and, and you know, we make an impact on how. You know how the development goes by commenting and using it and looking at what, what works.

0:16:47 - Leo Laporte
Anthony Nielsen, you're going to turn yours in he's. He bought one with his own personal money. You have a few more days. He's trying to decide. I think I don't know and we'll get Mike of the Packages up because we don't want to keep that one. Yeah, good, good on you all you early adopters. It certainly was good for YouTube performers millions of views right out of the box. So it's. It's almost a YouTube subcity act kind of a device. It's been very successful.

0:17:16 - Alex Lindsay
We talked about on. We talked about the Vision Pro last Tuesday before this show, and it is the I. Even just for my little, my little website, my little YouTube channel, it's the highest viewed regular one ever.

0:17:29 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, so, yeah, so it's like everybody that which is intro, I mean, that tells me that real people are are very interested in the platform. They want to know more about it, right yeah?

0:17:40 - Jason Snell
And that's. That's the right. Like we were talking about that ad that Apple did with the, the, you know, people putting things on their face and all that. It's like I feel like Apple is really trying to get this to be a thing that people are interested in, but in a, this is the future. What is Apple, you know, baking up for us? Right, it's.

Apple very rarely works in public. They generally, right, all their R&D is behind the scenes. Because this product is so cutting edge, they are essentially developing it in public at this point, and I think that's what the that's what they want the general population to see is just oh, the wizards at Apple they've got a crazy thing and what's it like now and where's it going. That serves them incredibly well because it is so early, they can't really ship that many of them and you know, if you talk to somebody behind the scenes at Apple, they would secretly, they would probably admit to you that of course, this is a 1.0 and and where's it going. So I think it all works in their favor. The more you've got people like YouTubers, popularizing, sort of like getting the general sense of it, because that's all Apple, I think, really wants is people to get the gist of it and then wait for, you know, their moment to strike, which is not now.

0:18:49 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, I did note there were no Vision Pro ads on the Super Bowl. In fact, I don't think there were any ads for Apple stuff at all. There's just a halftime show. Yeah, that was the ad was a halftime show, but that was the ad.

0:19:01 - Alex Lindsay
What I was curious about is to see and this won't happen for a little while is whether we get a some snippet of that halftime show shows up in the Vision video pile. You know like, hey, here's some stereo video. I mean I know if I was shooting the halftime show I'd have an R5 in there somewhere you know capturing or some kind of thing. I'd be capturing some of that and three, then making a decision about whether it worked or not and then, if it worked, putting out a 10 minute or five minute piece. That is a little. You know Apple's been kind of, you know, like the, we all knew something was going to happen with, with MLS and in that test thing they're showing right above the net and it's, you know, it's compelling. So I think it's going to be a really interesting. So I'd be surprised that we I kind of would be surprised, I would feel like something went wrong If we don't see some stereo footage show up for the vision from from the halftime show, just like a little, like a little clip of it, not not a big piece.

0:19:59 - Andy Ihnatko
Alex, is there something that I don't know about that does it when it's recording spatial video? Does it do it in a universal format that could be posted elsewhere? Because I'm wondering like there are going to be people who are going to make really great spatial videos, but there's no YouTube per se in which to post it and share it.

0:20:14 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah. So so the the well, what I was going to say. I think that if they shot something in the in the Super Bowl, they wouldn't have shot it with a phone. They shoot it with something that's I'm what we call side by side stereo. So so I think that the SPS would be done for that. If you're shooting it. It's an MVHEVC and there are some tools. There's one called, I think, spatially. There are in a couple other tools that people are putting together that will.

It's a little easier to go from side by side to MVHEVC than it is from MVHEVC to side by side, because they're the way side, the way that the, the way that the phone works and the way that it's being sent to the to vision, is that you have one eye that's the left eye, that is the hero eye and all the data is there, and the second eye is the right eye and it's just the delta between the left and the right. That means extracting that back out to extracting that back out to side by side is not as clean. Going from side by side to that is a little bit cleaner and because it's also more efficient and it's more portable. So what's going to happen is is that when you're editing it, you can edit it as if it was just 2D footage, but when it, when you send it back out, it's going to appear 3D. So it's a little easier to work with than side by side.

But if I was going to shoot something right now that mattered, I'd still shoot side by side and convert it to MVHEVC, which then there's a fair number of converters that are kind of working in that area. They're not real time yet, so one of the things that we haven't seen. I think that the company that is the closest to being able to do this in real time is a TEM out of France, but but the, and they always jump on everything first and nothing works for a while. But anyway it's, it's good start. That's the one that's close to getting real time 2D 2 side by side into H MVHEVC.

0:21:58 - Andy Ihnatko
I was. I was thinking more, even simpler, on the lines of I shot my, I shot my nieces, like 11th birthday party cutting the cake. And, of course, because all my brothers and sisters and cousins also have, also have vision pros, I want them to be able to see it too, like how they can see it.

0:22:15 - Alex Lindsay
You can send it to. You just send a video to somebody and they can see it. The main thing is is that if you and and Oculus did, or Metta did, announce that they are supporting there, they've got an update to either support or convert I haven't looked at it specifically yet the MVHEVC, so so you know. So Metta is going towards the ability to support that the. Again, the true conversion to side by side is a little tricky to do. Well, there are some tools that are doing it. My understanding is I haven't tried to go that direction.

Most of my stuff has been playing with side by side to MVHEVC and I will say it looks okay Like I shot the same footage with my daughter in 4K. She was just playing the piano 4K and then I shot her playing the same thing in the 3D and I'd rather have the 4K version. It was a little soft and it didn't. There's a problem with motion blur. In any 3D the motion blur doesn't quite work, and so it's kind of one of those things where it looks a little cut out in certain ways, and so I think that there's still a lot of room to grow there.

0:23:22 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I mean, I'm probably, if I ever get my hands on a generation one, it's not gonna be for like months, and one of the first things I wanna go diving to is, oh, let's see the Super Bowl thing, and I just I hope that there's gonna be provision for hey. Here's a section of the iTunes video store that has spatial video Again, not even necessarily stuff that was shot with, like Alex Lindsey great cameras, but even there's like, every now and then, Apple who does come up with a hey. Here's a shot on iPhone video, Like there's a lunar new year video they did for that's 15, really cool video. That's a little short film is 15 minutes long, and it'd be nice if there's like a section of the store of hey. Here is like content.

0:24:05 - Alex Lindsay
There is now. There's a in the vision. There's a shelf. There's only like four things on it or five things on it, but there's a shelf that is the spatial videos. That's where the Alicia Keys is sitting and that's where the demo, the demo kind of sits at the end, and there's the high line example and there's a one with some rhinos. So anyway, yeah, so good, yeah, that's really good.

0:24:32 - Leo Laporte
So Apple did really save a privacy document which I commend them for writing in English and being kind of very clear about the privacy. They point out we built vision OS from the ground up to protect your privacy and and this I think is important the privacy of the people around you. Apple Vision Pros and First Apple product uses advanced always on camera streams of your eyes and the world around you to enable spatial experiences. They talk about how much data they collect, for instance in mapping your environment, but it's a little unclear whether they send that back. Most of it's on device right, yeah most of it's on device.

0:25:12 - Andy Ihnatko
But one of the most important things they're doing is that there are privacy elements, there's personal data that we haven't even considered, and the most basic is where are you looking? Even if you don't action on something by clicking on it, where are you looking? You know that when entertainment for VR becomes a really big thing, even if it's not 3D, even if it's just here's a flat video watching Disney Plus, they want to know where is your attention and is your attention wandering. And did you look at this product? That was a product placement on the back shelf. So it's a really, really big deal that they spell out that to keep your thought process private, where you look before you interact with content is not shared with Apple or the apps you're using and does not leave your device. Similarly, because Apple Vision Pro blends digital content with your physical space on device, the apps you use cannot access information about your surroundings by default.

0:26:02 - Leo Laporte
By default, but with permission, apps can access surrounding data, including everything in your house within five meters of you.

0:26:12 - Jason Snell
Right. But it's really interesting how they've done this where, yeah, they know the geometry and what's in your house, but they only share with apps a very limited conception of that, if anything. But, yeah, there's a permission for that, essentially to get an app, and I've had like two apps asked because they want to be able to play something on a table or something. It's so I mean I like it. And also keep in mind, like the eye tracking stuff is also completely separate from like they're not gonna let you get your eye tracking data passed on to third-party apps. It's just not in there, because, I mean, this is a huge privacy issue if that data can get mined by web pages and apps and all of that.

0:26:55 - Leo Laporte
And they don't want to and they say very clearly we don't share information about who may be physically nearby with the apps and websites you use or with Apple. I am a little concerned about this full space permission because you said you only a couple of. They say that, for instance, encountered dinosaurs asks for full space permission so the dinosaurs can burst through your physical space, but at that point you're sending to that app images of your house, everything around you, for five meters, 15 feet.

0:27:25 - Jason Snell
Is it images or is it just the 3D planes, the mesh? Yeah, I think it's the mesh. So we can't, the apps can't actually see by giving an app access to surrounding data.

0:27:33 - Leo Laporte
The app can map the world around you using a scene mesh. Recognize objects in your surroundings. Determine the location of specific objects in your surroundings.

0:27:42 - Jason Snell
Right, so it's getting. It's not getting pictures. These apps aren't getting pictures. They're getting a mesh of the objects and planes.

0:27:49 - Leo Laporte
How does it recognize objects if it's not getting pictures?

0:27:52 - Jason Snell
The VisionOS is recognizing the objects and passing an object marker basically to the app. The app doesn't get the actual full picture. Like they thought this through, like they don't want. They want a level of abstraction between the OS and reality where the OS is only passing through a 3D space that's marked up to the app to process.

0:28:14 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, the paper seems to be making a regular point that they do. Their security policy and privacy policy is as such that they, that developers don't need to get more access to your personal data than it absolutely needs. So, for instance, if the app needs to know that, hey, here is a, here is a countertop, here's a table in front of you, cause that's where the chess pieces are going to go, it doesn't necessarily need to know what is the texture of that service.

0:28:40 - Leo Laporte
So it doesn't. There's no way to say there's a Samsung S24 Ultra to your left. That's not. You're going to go back to anybody.

0:28:49 - Andy Ihnatko
If it asks for permission, I'm sure it could give it. They said they also in the document said that they're updating the privacy nutrition label in the app store. So now it also includes for Vision apps, head movement, hand movement and your surroundings. So supposedly the inference from that would be that if there's an app that absolutely needs that, yes, they can get it, but they that will be part of the things where it's going to, like Jason experienced. It will ask you specifically if it needs access to this.

0:29:14 - Leo Laporte
So yeah, it's up to you not to give it permission. I mean, the reason this is important is this could be the ultimate privacy invasion device 100% With 14 cameras on it.

0:29:27 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and I think that that's why Apple, on all their devices, is spending so much time and energy on all the things in the entire chain to keep things private, because they're doing, they're going to, they're releasing products that are very privacy dependent, and so so I think that a lot of a lot of their view of things of wanting things to be locked down and private and controlled is very much connected to a big part of their business model for the next decade is giving you things that you do not want to share with others.

0:29:58 - Leo Laporte
How do we, how do we verify, you just have to trust them.

0:30:04 - Alex Lindsay
Well, I mean, I think that the thing is it's, the verification is mostly that it's the end of their business model if they fail. Like you know, like it's, like you know, like they're building, they put their, they're all in and it's the end. And so so they, you know it's within their you know what would they want the data for. They're already making money on selling you hardware. They don't need to sell your privacy.

0:30:25 - Jason Snell
And their develop, the developers will tell us too because, right you, you can write an app that asks for all those permissions and figure out everything that you get, and I'm sure people will do that and they'll be able to explain what they get. And but, yeah, I appreciate that Apple's doing this because, to Alex's point, they have to, it is their entire brand and, to your point, you know, theoretically this device can map literally every object in your house and every person in your house and know where everything is. And it does to a certain degree. But it's holding that on device and at arm's length from apps, which is as it should be from Apple.

0:30:58 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, yeah, they needed to get ahead of this. Washington Post had an article from someone who from the reading it, I don't believe that they actually had used the device yet warning that this could be the biggest privacy nightmare ever, and rather than saying that these types of devices could potentially, in five years time, become as bad as that, it was basically casting aspersions that seemed on the on the Vision Pro, which it didn't seem to deserve at that point.

0:31:23 - Leo Laporte
Okay, okay. Yeah, I mean, if people don't want an Amazon Echo in their house, I can see why they like. Like, I mean, I'm on a Vision Pro in their house.

0:31:33 - Alex Lindsay
Well, it's a good example is I don't. I won't. I have a. For all the bobbles and the limitations of Siri, I have an Apple. I have some Apple speakers in my house. I do not have an Amazon, echo or Google. You know stuff in my house. I feel like that information is much more secure with Apple than it would be with with other products.

0:31:50 - Andy Ihnatko
As always, if you want your, if you want Google to sync your calendars across all devices and give you reminders and hook up to other apps that can also hook up to reminders, you're going to have to let them know what your calendar information is about. So, as long as Google is transparent about how they use that data, so long as you you have evaluated that transaction and you think that you're getting as much or more than what you're giving up, that's fine.

0:32:12 - Leo Laporte
The article you're referring to is opinion piece from Jeffrey Fowler, their their technology reporter. Apple's new vision pro is a privacy mess waiting to happen, and this was written before two weeks ago, before the not only before the release of the vision pro, but before the privacy paper that Apple just put out.

0:32:30 - Jason Snell
So you got to get it out there in front of reality so you can piece it in there.

0:32:34 - Leo Laporte
I don't think it's unfair. I mean, I'm look, first of all, I'm not a privacy hawk. Obviously I can't be, but you know there are people who do care a lot about this kind of stuff. There was concern, remember, about the robot vacuum cleaners like the Roomba, mapping your house in order to do the vacuuming and who gets that information and when, in fact, that was the chief concern over Amazon buying Roomba, which is now off partly because of that. So I understand the concern and I'm not convinced Apple is. This is the white knight. It portrays itself as that's.

0:33:09 - Alex Lindsay
I'm not. I don't think it's a white knight issue, though I think I think this is a. It's a business model issue, Like they built a business model around privacy. It's how they make money.

0:33:16 - Leo Laporte
It's not a matter of them being good or bad, it's just them that they sell ads against your information, as as on the iPhone as we speak, so they don't need that money.

0:33:28 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, but I don't think that they I mean again, I don't think that they're not going to give up, they're not going to give up privacy. You know, against the house.

0:33:39 - Leo Laporte
They do with their first party information. They know about you.

0:33:43 - Alex Lindsay
They use that to sell against you and to put ads up against you, but let the people do first party as well, like they're not. They're not taking that away from anyone. I mean they're. Everybody has first party, right, like everybody on the iPhone has first party. No, I can't.

0:33:53 - Leo Laporte
I would say look as I've said, I'm not a privacy hawk and I've given up completely. Yeah, but I would say, and I do, and I would say that I think you should not necessarily say blightly, say oh well, Apple says it's okay, so I'm sure it's okay.

0:34:06 - Alex Lindsay
No, and I think, and I don't, I don't agree with you. I don't think that Apple should run ads on the, on the. I think that's a huge mistake.

0:34:12 - Leo Laporte
That's them saying we care more about the money than privacy.

0:34:15 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and I think that I think that that's a, I think that's a unforced error to run ads. I agree 100%.

0:34:20 - Leo Laporte
But the fact is they do it. So that's why you'll. You'll forgive me, but I view with a little skepticism what these are. Very the words in this privacy policy are subject to interpretation. What is that? Full space permission giving a third party developer? You say, oh, it's not, it's just a. It's a, it's a picture of a solid object.

0:34:45 - Alex Lindsay
Is it a picture of an S24 Ultra or not, and that's what I don't have, that I can just tell you. It wouldn't have that resolution, like it doesn't have that resolution.

0:34:54 - Jason Snell
It might say there's a phone there, if it can get the shape.

0:34:57 - Leo Laporte
It can't tell what kind of faucet you have, or what kind of TV you have. It might be able to tell what kind of faucet.

0:35:01 - Alex Lindsay
That's two different things, because a phone, all the phones are the same size, they all look the same. You know they're all the same, but they're but the but a faucet. It would be hard for it to be precise but it could probably get you know. It could see enough geometry where it could. You could start making guesses.

0:35:20 - Leo Laporte
So there's some. I mean, I had a room but I wasn't concerned about it sending information, even if it sent it off to Amazon. I don't really care, but people do, and I guess those people have already don't buy it to buy a vision.

That's probably the right answer is if you're worried, don't you know it's an interesting point, let's take a break, come back more to talk about, including, I guess, a victory for Apple in the EU. But first a word from our sponsor. Actually, this is a new sponsor I wanna welcome. It's a watch face brought to you by DC Labs. It's an Apple watch face called the Stress Face and I happen to know that I'm a little stressed out right now. Thanks to Stress Face.

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All right, I'm gonna call you that John. John Ashley, I might just call you Stress Face from now on, because you're the one who takes the stress. I can relax while you do the stress.

0:38:20 - John Ashley
Well, it's either Stress Face or Boy Producer.

0:38:24 - Leo Laporte
I don't know. That's a thing. They're pretty bad both of them. Business Insider I don't know whether to credit this or not says the Vision Pro has a scary side effect. This seems like link bait. I'll let you guys throw this one out if you want. It may rewire our brains in some unexpected ways. There has been. The Air Force did studies on simulator sickness when they were training pilots in simulators and they did say sometimes it takes as long as 24 hours to clear the effects and that you shouldn't drive a vehicle. That's the Air Force's recommendation for 24 hours.

0:39:01 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I think the title is a little bit, you know, pulse quickening, but it does point to-.

0:39:08 - Leo Laporte
Yes, my stress face says it's a 10.

0:39:12 - Andy Ihnatko
No. So the Virtual Human Interaction Lab at Stanford just released a paper, like a week ago. That is actually very, very interesting. It's only 50 pages long. It's called Seeing the World Through Digital Prism psychological implications to pass through video usage and mixed reality.

0:39:29 - Leo Laporte
I'd like to see more of this.

0:39:30 - Andy Ihnatko
That doesn't get you in the screen. It's interesting because it mostly summarizes all the academic papers that have been put out in the past 10 years on the effects of mixed reality whether it's existing MetaQuest, whether it's existing HoloLens or Night Vision Glasses, where someone's entire version of reality is coming through some form video and summarizes all the things that other researchers have come up with with some anecdotal stuff that is very, very specifically labeled as anecdotal, Like they had. They tried. They had like 11 people, including members of their own team, with MetaQuest and with HoloLens. Obviously they did not have access to-.

0:40:13 - Leo Laporte
It came out February 2nd, the day the Vision Pro came out. Yeah, yeah.

0:40:17 - Andy Ihnatko
Exactly Excellent timing voice Exactly right.

They're trying to sell t-shirts too, I'm sure, but it's a good way. It's very valuable, I thought, because it gives you a good background as the sort of things they're gonna have to keep an eye on. The conclusion per se they make isn't that, oh my God, we should ban the Vision Pro before it turns off all into cross-eyed people like in the jerk, with the optograb lens in the middle of their noses. But it is saying that this is pretty well documented, that if you put somebody into a distorted version of reality whether it is-.

0:40:55 - Leo Laporte
Let me read it actually. Let me read the actual conclusion. We conclude that the pass-through experience can inspire awe and lends itself to many applications, but will also likely cause visual after effects. We've heard anecdotal stories from a lot of Vision Pro users. That happens. Lapses in judgments of distance, uh-oh, induce simulator sickness and and this is an interesting point, they add interfere with social connection. We recommend caution and restraint for companies lobbying for daily use of these headsets and urge scholars to rigorously and longitudinally study this phenomenon.

0:41:33 - Jason Snell
I think there's nothing wrong with academics saying, hey, we don't know a lot about this thing. We should, we should study it, and there is absolute truth in that. I think that particular web story is a little hyperbolic, beyond the headline, but I think that we could all agree, and I've seen it. I mean, I've seen some people complain about visual effects. I for sure when I after it's not true anymore, but in the first week that I used this, just as with the Quest. Actually, after you take it off every 2D like computer monitor, your brain is like, oh, that's probably in 3D, I'll process that, and you're like, no, no, no, no, brain don't do that, and everything looks a little weirdly. Not 3D for a while, but after a few days our brains are just so good at this I don't get that effect anymore. I don't have that effect.

There's something in the story that I want to point out just because it's it made me roll my eyes so much which is they're like oh, it's got this ability to do erasure, where it takes things that are in your world and it takes them out and replaces them with like a window with a dinosaur in it. And then they said but it could also be used to erase things like what if it erased all pride flags? And I'm like I mean that's like we're now in a science fiction dystopian novel and it's not what this is about right now. So there's a lot of hype on all sides, but I cannot discount the fact that we should learn more about how this stuff affects the human brain. We totally should.

0:43:00 - Andy Ihnatko
And, to be fair, the paper itself doesn't get into anything like that at all. It is rigorously academic.

It was really. It was really. One of the sections that was really interesting to me was that there's this concept of social presence that the science looks at, which is the experience of emotional and psychological closeness to somebody who you're interacting with, and that these sort of mixed reality experiences often, often messes with your mind, that, even though it's on video, even though this is 3D in front of you, your brain has more difficulty identifying, on a very, very low genetic level, that this person you're talking to is actually real. We're not talking about avatars or somalcrums. We're talking about here is someone who is in front of you, five feet away, talking to you about whatever, and, yes, you may not necessarily and this is something that should be researched you're not aware that you're interacting with this person differently, but if normally, if normally, if your emotional engagement and your empathy is at 93, if it means that now you're down to 84, that's significant.

0:44:09 - Leo Laporte
They said. Specifically, we found something unexpected across multiple and dependent variables participants within each diet, each two person couple in their physical presence who wore the AR headset during social interaction reported feeling significantly less connected to their partners than participants who are not wearing headsets. In our field notes, social absence was common. People in the real world simply felt less real, especially for strangers. People appeared distant and blended into the background.

0:44:42 - Alex Lindsay
Moreover, the limited field of view remember they're not using the vision pro here, they were using a MediQuest 3 and it looks like a hollow list which I think has a wider at least the pro has actually a wider field of view, I believe than the vision pro the MediPro oh okay, the vision pro has higher frame rate, higher detail, less latency, so a lot of this stuff might be not as magnified.

0:45:05 - Leo Laporte
They also say it was often embarrassing to interact with strangers while wearing a headset.

0:45:12 - Andy Ihnatko
We're not ready to publish it, but our findings, our preliminary findings, are exciting.

0:45:18 - Leo Laporte
So I mean, yeah, I think that's the right thing. The right way to treat it is we don't know much. We do know anecdotally, and if you've ever worn one of these, you know probably from personal experience. It does bend your mind for a little bit after you take it off.

0:45:33 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, it's always interesting. Years ago, I had this idea that, gee, for thousands of years, the history of written language we've only written with the tool that we've used to write language with was one-handed. We'd, you know, a stylus, a pen, something like that, and then the typewriter, and then the computer keyboard came along and suddenly we're using both hands. Did that in any way affect how people form their thoughts and how they communicate through keyboards? Because now they're using the most.

And then and I actually I was on this for a few months and I found the right, the right psychologist and the right scientist to take a look I said, yeah, we looked at that a while ago and it's nothing. But nonetheless, we don't want, we're always afraid of like finding out years and years and years later that, oh so if you, you know you're not going to be able to do that you are playing hockey or any other contact sport even, as even any sort of a head head hit is really, really bad and dangerous. What, what do we wish we had known before? This became something that would become almost difficult, almost impossible to get rid of.

0:46:35 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, and as out of sync as saying in our discord, even corrective eyeglasses rewire your brain right somewhat to see the world differently.

0:46:46 - Jason Snell
You are sure, right, anybody who's worn like I actually brought this up in my I think, maybe in my review or maybe it was in a first look how we get trained and our brains get trained. So like, if you wear progressives, I have progressives that I wear. These are my computer glasses, but it's where there's reading at the bottom and distance at the top. You know you put them on and I first wore them a couple of years ago. It's weird, right, because you can read in part of your vision and not very quickly your brain knows if you're reading, just tilt your head a little bit, and then the same thing in a vision pro.

What I found is that, especially with iPad apps with a touch target or the target is smaller if it's in the corner of my vision, I can't be as precise on the vision pro, because at the edge it seems less precise and the iPad targets are less precise, and I noticed that week one. In week two. What I've noticed is I just move my head a little bit and then I get the right target, and so that's a part of this too, is our brains get rewired and it can be good, it can be bad and, as Andy was saying, I mean, isn't there a? There's some meme? I think it's a Futurama where it's like oh, it was fine until they? No, was the Simpsons?

Where your eyes fall out after 20 years? Right, it's like we don't, that's not going to happen, but like it does rewire your brain, and that's why it's important for us to all think about it. I am so impressed by the fact that we are capable of doing things like putting different fields of vision in your glasses and after a few days, your brain is like I got it, I figured this one out and they have to think about it again.

0:48:20 - Alex Lindsay
They experiment. I think it was in the I don't remember how long ago it was, but they gave someone something that reversed. The literally turned everything upside down, so literally as long as they kept the glasses on, the world looked upside down and within a couple of days, everything looked right side up.

0:48:35 - Leo Laporte
So the funny thing is, you're doing that right now because the world, through your the optics of your eyeball is upside down and your brain is rewiring, so they made it normal.

0:48:45 - Alex Lindsay
And then I guess evidently it was worse when you took it off. When they took the glasses off, the headaches were much worse as the brain figured out how to rewire that in, to flip it back.

0:48:54 - Andy Ihnatko
But that illustrates the one of the risks that we need to research that like eventually. Right now, the resolution of the Vision Pro is not retinal level. It's not better than what the eye can perceive, it's not as as, as you guys have pointed out like. It's not like looking at a real 4k screen is really good, but not some point that they are going to be so good that gosh. If I had $2,000, I can spend it on either a really good 4k, maybe 8k at that point display, or I can spend the same amount of money on a virtual display that's a lot more portable and works in my apartment a lot better. Maybe I'll get that display.

But now that you're using this for seven hours a day, you knock off at work at 430. He said oh great, I've just time. Just time to meet my, meet my friends for dinner. You jump in your car. Are you aware that you don't see distances quite correctly? Are you aware that your brain has adapted to distortions in your field of view or adapted to having a narrow field of view? And you think if you had not been using this for the past day, maybe you would not, maybe you wouldn't, maybe you wouldn't have come so close to that person on the bicycle.

I do think the question needs to be asked.

0:50:02 - Alex Lindsay
As someone who wears glasses that aren't like super wraparound or anything else, I find that the field of view of the vision pro is not much different than my day to day life, you know, because there's a whole section of my, of the world that I don't really think about. My brain does. I can still see it, but my brain doesn't process that because it's outside of the glasses, and so I think that that's. That's a little bit of it. I, you know, I do think that oftentimes, specifically with Stanford, if the veracity of there, I have to read this one to look at it. But if it's anything like the one that they wrote about zoom, I'm not too worried. You know like. So so you know like, the zoom one was so bad and so off that they that they wrote, they wrote this long one near the beginning of the COVID or whatever about zoom, and it was as someone who's done this for so long, it was just like having a child explain an aircraft. You know like. You know like it was just. You know like and I was just like and I was just like what are you talking about? And so so I, you know.

I think that the only way we're going to know, unfortunately, is to do it, and you know, and the thing we have to remember is that we change things all the time. We were talking about earlier, about we only wrote with one hand. Well, you know, 99% of the world didn't read or write until a hundred years ago. You know like, you know, so, like it was. We just remember that that you know, like, as a human, as the human race, there's a lot of things.

You know, like one of the things that there was a study that I was looking at early on when I was doing research, and they were talking about how people who grew up in rural cultures, you know, in Africa and other places, oftentimes process a lot more data than than folks that grew up in the city, because in the city we've learned over time to not pay attention to things like just you know, just you know you, you know they and for them there, if you don't pay attention to everything, there might be something in the forest that might kill you, you know, and so and so, as a result, they have a tendency to pick up and they would lots of details in design and so on and so forth, but they pay, and then they pay a lot of attention to their environment, because it's life or death, you know.

And in the city, again, there's a lot of controls, and so we, I think we're constantly adjusting to all of those things, and none of this and none of this is nearly as dangerous as corn syrup, and we've, we've decided that Wow, tie that all up?

0:52:12 - Leo Laporte
Yes, that does, let me tell you. Everybody listening in Nebraska is very mad, mad at you now.

0:52:20 - Alex Lindsay
I know they're mad man. Corn syrup is so bad for you.

0:52:24 - Andy Ihnatko
And it's, and it's and everything. That's okay. I'm a brand new sponsor. K-row syrup oh my God.

0:52:30 - Leo Laporte
Oh no, you guys should be able to just buy K-Row syrup. I guess you probably still can, still can. That's how you make fudge, right, you need K-Row syrup, corn syrup In the renegade badlands.

0:52:40 - Andy Ihnatko
you can, yes.

0:52:42 - Leo Laporte
Oh my God, crisco and K-Row man, that's my diet. Apple has dodged a bullet with the EU the probe, the EU's digital markets act. Probe determined that Apple's eye message is not big enough to have to be interoperable. Nor is Microsoft's Bing, of all things, or the edge browser and advertising. You're too small.

0:53:10 - Alex Lindsay
You're too small, we don't care.

0:53:12 - Leo Laporte
Go ahead, be as non-competitive as you want.

0:53:16 - Alex Lindsay
I think a lot of us it would have felt really crazy. I don't know most Bing, but with eye message I mean I just don't know anybody. I know when I say this I get a bunch of people hitting me up. I use eye messages all the time in Europe, but I don't know anybody that does. Everybody I deal with is all on WhatsApp, and so it's an odd and.

0:53:34 - Leo Laporte
Dr D says Microsoft's going to appeal. No, we're paid. Come on, hey man.

0:53:41 - Andy Ihnatko
Remember when we were the big edge. I trust once Come on Horace's. Now we can say that we've had an inquiry, please.

0:53:49 - Leo Laporte
It doesn't mean that Apple's app store is not being regulated by the DMA is and you know obviously. But the the uh, let's see for for Microsoft windows operating system, obviously linked in, obviously for Apple iOS is is definitely big enough the app store and the Safari browser. So under the law, it's illegal for the firms that uh that meet this test to favor their own services over those of rivals. They'll be barred from combining personal data across different services, prohibited from using data they collect from third party merchants to compete against them Amazon, and we'll have to allow users to download apps from rivals platforms. March 7th is the day and that's when you look. We're all expecting to see the new iOS version. Uh, that will feature an app store, but just for Europe. Uh, I wonder how many do you think anybody is good is going to do? I guess Epic has to right it makes it your big deal about it, but do you think anybody will announce an app store on March 7th in Europe? Not announced?

0:54:56 - Alex Lindsay
it. I mean it's going to still going to take them a long time to develop it.

0:55:00 - Leo Laporte
There's very little commercial benefit to it. You still have to pay Apple 27%, in fact. There's more oops to jump through, not fewer. It's harder you still have to get app approval. I mean it's uh. It seems like Apple has made it as as, as undesirable as possible. That's what Mozilla said about the browser.

0:55:19 - Andy Ihnatko
And they and they, they also. They also attracted some attention for that. Uh, they, the chief, the chief regulator in the EU, had an interview or statement last week when she said that she said that she didn't. She's not really sure that these companies are going to take compliance seriously and that this is the fact that they said that they're in compliance means that okay. So now we have to check to make sure they are in compliance. And Apple, google, microsoft, all the rest of you we could basically slap you very, very hard and tell you to go back and try again. So they're they're suspicious to be to say. I suppose they could even find them.

0:55:50 - Leo Laporte
I mean, they could even. They could even say you're in violation right.

0:55:55 - Alex Lindsay
I guess it depends on whether I think what Apple probably did is look at the actual act and said is this? You know, I think that they are trying to follow the letter of the law.

0:56:02 - Andy Ihnatko
It's just a concern about spirit. Yeah, exactly yeah but was it the, was it a grouper who made that really really great comparison where it's like, it's like Apple is making their own app store submission, like, just like developers, where, okay, we think we're in compliance, but they could, they could turn us down and we don't know why. But here's, here's, here's our first, our first drop. That was so good.

0:56:24 - Jason Snell
Yeah, although it sounds like the way that this works is is not that the EU says we reject your app. It's more like you do it and then somebody can complain. I don't know whether they sue or they file a complaint with the European commission, but it is this nebulous thing where, like there's no green light that goes off. It's not like the price is right, where you pull blever and it went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. If you're right, like you just have to. We just kind of like what an app store submission is right, where you're like what if I do this, could I get in now? No, it's more like they're just going to do this and then we'll see what happens and and there'll be a process to do it.

But I do feel like my gut feeling is the danger is that Apple does this game so well that nothing changes, because that's gonna be hard for the European Commission to swallow if nothing changes. So what they want is like this it feels like they did enough to satisfy what was going on, even if it makes Epic and Facebook unhappy. That's sort of, I think their preferred, that's their win is like it changes just enough to get the European Commission off their backs without actually making Epic Games and Facebook happy.

0:57:45 - Andy Ihnatko
And, at minimum, it forces even Apple, who are the most petulant people in the world when it comes to trying to get them to do something that they are convinced that they shouldn't have to do. They're saying well, now, this is not something that you get to do what you want, and then maybe we will say that you shouldn't be doing, that this is the law of the land. This is actually happening. This is a real thing. So if you think that you can't at least anticipate these problems and at least make some form of compliance, you are sorely mistaken. So all these companies are gonna at least do the least that they can possibly do, which sounds like a half warm tea, but the fact of the matter is they used to have to do nothing, so this is I do think this is a step forward.

0:58:25 - Leo Laporte
FCC commissioner Brendan Carr says the FCC should investigate Apple's response to Beeper Mini. Carr said the FCC should look into whether Apple's move quote complies with the FCC's part 14 rules. Those are rules about accommodating users with disabilities. I'm not sure. Is it a disability to have a blue bubble? I don't know. I'm not sure what he means there. Anyway, it's a grasp. Yeah, According to part 14, advanced communication services like iMessage must follow rules to ensure they're accessible. By putting a stop to Beeper Mini Carr argues this is from the Verge Apple may violate the FCC's rule that says providers shall not install network features, functions or capabilities that impede accessibility or usability. Oh, this is the low contrast green bubbles makes it difficult for people with low vision or difficulty from seeing or picking up those messages.

0:59:27 - Andy Ihnatko
Wow, yeah, this is one of the two Republican commissioners, I think he has said strange things in the past.

0:59:34 - Leo Laporte
This is not yeah.

0:59:36 - Alex Lindsay
It just really undermines his credibility and, more than anything else, it's not gonna go anywhere, but it really undermines people thinking that he's actually qualified for what he's doing. I think that's the, and I think that when you go after the wrong things that are just obviously like, it's just you know.

0:59:53 - Leo Laporte
FCC chairwoman, jessica Rosen-Woshell, has not told the Verge if the agency plans to investigate. The Verge does point out it seems like Carr is concerned about more than just the Beeper Mini to back, although he also mentioned Apple's impact on the augmented and virtual reality spaces Really Already, and criticize the walled garden Apple puts around its products and services. I think there are potentially negative consequences of Apple perpetuates a world in which it treats its own proprietary technologies one way and degrades the performance of competitive ones.

1:00:27 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, I'm not gonna see. I have no inside information on this, but I suspect that somebody dropped their iPhone 15 on a toilet on the third day they had it and the store refused to fix it for free. I'm guessing, or at least I'm gonna put that out there as a possibility. That's the right. You might be right. Talk about Pettulent. This is overreaching.

1:00:50 - Alex Lindsay
So there you go. There are times, and I have to admit there are times. The real problem is that when you're a commissioner and this is we have unfortunately a lot of representatives and folks in the government that feel free to throw their ideas out of what they should make laws about, and unfortunately, a lot of people make intelligence decisions about them that are hard to get rid of later. Like you know, it's kind of like well, you proposed this like two years ago, so I'm not going to take you seriously ever, and so I think that he's, but he's done that a couple times already.

1:01:19 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, what are you guys doing for Valentine's? Anything special? Change the subject? I don't know. I threw you, didn't I? Let's see, all right, let's actually let's take a little break. And then there's a few more things we can talk about as we continue with MacBreak Weekly, your picks of the week coming up too.

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And, by the way, your data is always safe with Melissa. They've achieved the highest level of security status available. They've got FedRAMP authorization. That should really reassure you. Of course, you know that's for government agencies, but it means everybody benefits from the higher security that's required. And as long as we're talking, I should mention Melissa's solutions and services are also GDPR, ccpa the California Privacy Act compliant. They meet SOTC2 and HIPAA and high trust standards for information security management. Look at your data is one of your most valuable possessions that address list, the customer or supplier list. You need to keep it up to date. Get started right now with Melissa's offer of 1000 records clean for free. Go to M-E-L-I-S-S-A. We thank you so much for their support of MacBreak Weekly. Jon Stewart says Apple TV canceled his show because they didn't want me to say things that might get me in trouble.

1:03:56 - Alex Lindsay
Really, I thought that was politically astute way for you. They were looking out for you.

1:04:02 - Leo Laporte
Is that it Apple cares? Yeah, yeah. What we had heard is that Stuart was about to do shows that might peeve China. Right, they canceled his show. He said I wanted a place to unload thoughts as we get into this election season. I thought I was going to do it over at. They call it Apple TV plus. It's a television enclave very small, it's like living in Malibu Sing but they decided they felt they didn't want me to say things that might get me in trouble. I think he's being a little arch. He is going to be hosting Monday episodes of his old show, the Daily Show, which I'm very glad to welcome him back to. That. The problem with John Stuart apparently split with Apple amicably, according to an individual. This is Variety writing with an individual with knowledge of the situation. New York Times said the duo had disagreements over topics to be covered in the third season, including AI and China. I don't know. I mean, look, what more can you say about this? Yeah.

1:05:14 - Andy Ihnatko
I mean it's it's. It's lukewarm to warm, because it's it's. It's not as it's. It's not as bad as if he decided to come out swinging a month after the they announced that he was not going to be continuing with the Apple TV plus show. It's no, he's on a morning show, he's being interviewed about this thing. That's happening, that's launching in a day or two, and this is just. This just came up, so obviously it's still on his mind months later, or else he wouldn't have brought it up Also it sounds like a sense he had crafted earlier.

Diplomatic, not wanting to say too much or too little. It's significant that he said it. So I don't think that there's no, there's no truth to the idea that Apple was hoping for something less controversial. Whether, whether with the sources of that blowback that they're worried about are going to be, we can only speculate, because John Stewart did not say China or AI. That's from a source, an honestly sourced New York Times post. But you know, I mean it's, it's, it's going to be, it's. I couldn't help but think that, like both John Stewart and John Oliver, both landed from the Daily Show onto non ad supported networks, John Oliver gleefully taking advantage of the fact they don't have any advertisers, and also they can get away with even insulting his parent, the parent company of the of the actual show. The network that he's on John Stewart didn't work out. So I don't know.

1:06:35 - Alex Lindsay
Well, and I, I think, a data point, let's say. I think it was probably a mixture too. I mean, I don't think that John's I don't think either of their shows are as good as the Daily Show was. Like you know, I think that there was something magical about the Daily Show that was really fun to watch, but I only made it through a couple episodes of John Stewart show on the Apple. Yeah, same. Thing.

There was some, there was some, there was something lost, and John Oliver for me is sometimes a little more than I need for that and I just kind of like that.

Everything's awful there's some of them are okay, a lot of them are a little cringy, because I don't feel like he kind of purports to be accurate and he's not sometimes, and so and so I think that the so I think that the for both of them they were funnier and better and harder hitting in some ways on the Daily Show than they are in the context of their own shows, and I think that there was a magic there, that I think that maybe they're going back to a little bit with John Stewart. Going back to that Cause like the Daily Show is one of my favorite shows and so I was really excited when John moved over and then I was not excited when I actually saw the show.

1:07:34 - Leo Laporte
Jason Stell will agree with me that John Oliver was at his best with the Daily Bugle.

1:07:40 - Jason Snell
Oh, the Bugle podcast. Such a great podcast I mean I love last week tonight and I think that I can see that it is sort of like a version of the Bugle put on TV, but also with the long part where there's a you know 60 minutes with dick jokes, essentially Well put.

1:07:57 - Leo Laporte
Exactly right.

1:07:59 - Jason Snell
I think they would agree. I think they would agree. But there is the topical nature of the Daily Show, like having John Stewart back on a Monday night for a while to do his thing on the Daily Show it's I look at. The first episode with him was yesterday. I look forward to watching it today on Paramount Plus, I guess.

1:08:15 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, me too. I have to admit that I just can't. There is so much fodder on both sides this year I'm sure he had. He said he was like you got to give me at least one day a week.

1:08:26 - Leo Laporte
I think that's what he said. We're doing it through the election. So I think you nailed it Just pound on everybody, I can just attack everybody, yeah. Apple. I know there are people who are Windows users who watch or listen to this show. I hear from them like once every six months. Apple is why? Why are you watching?

1:08:46 - Andy Ihnatko
Because they love us Because we're like exactly, we're lovable.

1:08:52 - Leo Laporte
Apple is overhauling its entire Windows app suite, including iCloud and Apple Music. You're going to get new iCloud, music, tv and device management apps to bring back to us Music. You get music instead of iTunes.

1:09:09 - Andy Ihnatko
This goes to show how serious they are about Apple Music, if they're actually paying attention to Android, if they're actually paying attention to Windows experience, they're really, really, really want to make a run at this.

1:09:21 - Leo Laporte
I've used iCloud on Windows. No Safari updates for Windows, yeah, and apparently Cornelian Andrew Cunningham is very Windows-like. He's writing an R's Technica. He says, though, apple would clearly prefer that you buy Apple hardware to use Apple services. Offering decent apps for competing ecosystems at least ensures that people who use a mix of devices including you and me, andy an iPhone with a PC or an Android phone with a Mac or iPad have the option of staying within the Apple ecosystem rather than moving over to Spotify or Dropbox or something that's truly cross-platform.

1:09:56 - Alex Lindsay
Yes, services are important and they're going to make sure it's hard to share music. I mean, I have Spotify and music, but I never use Spotify anymore and so I'm still paying for it, but I'm not using it as much just because all my stuff got moved over and it's more convenient on my devices and I share stuff with my family all the time. But if I talk to somebody else I'm like, oh, I gotta go find that on Spotify. You almost you know it's really interesting.

1:10:19 - Leo Laporte
You have to have a Spotify app if you're gonna share. It feels like you almost have to have Spotify. That's how. That's the lingua franca of music sharing. Yeah, Apple has made an AI image tool that lets you make edits by describing them with a text prompt. It's M-G-I-E or MLLM guided image editing. You can use it to crop to brighten specific areas. I don't know how, and how do we get this?

1:10:50 - Andy Ihnatko
It's a it's. It's not available, it's a. It's a paper that's being presented as a conference and the paper just got published and the demos are real. It's not even an interface demo, it really is just like a model. But the demos that they give of here's before an actor and here's the text prompt is like here is a bowl of really delicious looking tomato soup and then here's the prompt make this more healthy. And suddenly there's like sliced zucchini in it or like, or there's, there's, there's like kind of you know, you take a picture of your kid and there's someone who's just happens to be walking right behind them. Whether you take the picture and remove the woman in the background and boom, the woman in the background is gone.

1:11:25 - Leo Laporte
I think this is inevitable, right? This is, we're going to see this everywhere at some point.

1:11:29 - Jonathan Bennett
Make a pizza more healthy by including the included vegetable topics.

1:11:33 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, oh sorry, Tomato soup pizza. All the same, Remove the woman in the background. Let the laptop have a green webpage. So it just puts a new webpage in the laptop. These are this is kind of cool.

1:11:49 - Alex Lindsay
I mean, this is the stuff we're doing with Photoshop now all the time, Like it's just, and I used it probably at least once a day in Photoshop. Like I have some little thing I want to correct, you select it, you just go take this out, put this in, add this thing, extend. Extend is a lot, Like I got to.

I have something. I just need a little bit more over to one side and just extend that out and it doesn't. And you know, sometimes it takes you three or four or three or six or nine or 12 tries to get exactly what you want, but it does it, you know there is a demo of this that's runnable.

1:12:18 - Jason Snell
that's on hugging face, so you can oh, good oh good, you can, you can run their demo version, but yeah, of course this is inevitable.

1:12:26 - Andy Ihnatko
Imagine, imagine a shlomo powered like on device iPhoto photo editor where you can show and it's not just like generative excuse me, not just the sort of blatant generative AI stuff. They also have things like make the sky bluer and more contrasty and great. That's, that's man this is. This is why, like generative AI and AI imagery gets me so excited. The idea that something that took me a long, long time to learn how to do in Photoshop, an app that I paid 20 bucks a month to use, is something that just somebody who just says I don't like this about this photo, can some, can some magic genie inside this box fix that for me. And as long as you can describe it in whatever your native language is, it can do that without you having to have expensive tools or experience. That is. I love it when technology empowers people who do not have access to tools, experience, power, whatever.

1:13:17 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, iOS 17.4 is adding a virtual card number feature to Apple Cash. I was all excited. I thought, well, this might be kind of like. I use privacy one of our former sponsors all the time to generate one time use numbers or to merchant locked credit card numbers. This isn't quite like that. If you can't use, you have that money in Apple Cash but the site doesn't support Apple Pay. They will create a credit card number for you that you can use with that site. This will be coming with 17.4. It is locked to. It is a single transaction, though, because it says the security change code changes for every transaction. That's awesome.

1:14:01 - Alex Lindsay
I mean that is really powerful. Like you know I didn't, you know I it's that you can never really give anybody. You could be putting cash into your cash, into your phone. You don't need to have an Apple credit card, right and that you'd be able to just put stuff into Apple Cash and then create a new credit card number for every transaction on the of, especially when you're going, like I can see, using this in. You go to a website. You're not sure if you really want to. You want to order that thing, but you're not sure you really want to. You know how, how dicey it is. This is a place where you put that credit card in and the most they can do. I mean it's gone after that, like it's like cash. It is like it's like cash using a credit card because they get to do that charge, they get the money and then that's it. There's no other relationship.

1:14:47 - Andy Ihnatko
Particularly when you sign up for a service that auto renews or the time trial last 30, 30 days because you forget and you're I'm perfectly fine with getting. We tried to renew for the full year at $173, but oh, it didn't go through. Could you update your payment Like oh wow, I just dodged a huge bullet there, and I do.

1:15:09 - Leo Laporte
For some reason, I have a lot of money in my Apple cash. I think I'm having them. That's where, oh, I know why. It's that's where I put the daily cash. It just goes into the savings.

1:15:20 - Alex Lindsay
It always feels to me like free money, but someone sends me cash, I feel like that money doesn't really exist. They've increased the APY to four and a half percent.

1:15:30 - Leo Laporte
So that's good. I'm still a thousand dollars short of buying a vision pro, but you know, I'm getting there inch by inch. Maybe by the second version I'll be able to afford one shot on iPhone, the. This is the time of year we all go around saying gong hey, fat choy, which is probably pretty embarrassing. But they did do a Chinese, because Saturday was Chinese new year. They did do a shot on iPhone. Apple did for 15 pro max. It actually looks like a shot in China. So that's kind of that's kind of neat. It's very beautiful.

1:16:08 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, it's 15 minutes long. It's not an iPhone ad. You actually get like eight minutes into it before you even see an iPhone, if any kind of, and even there it's not. Hey, look how much of this child is improving their life by having the new iPhone 15 pro or the whatever.

1:16:20 - Leo Laporte
It's for the Chinese market.

1:16:22 - Andy Ihnatko
I would guess yes, yeah, exactly, it is very, very Chinese and it's against everything shot like in the, in the country, in the, in the cities there, as very, very pretty. We always put the foot on the road. Of course it was shot with an iPhone 15, but with all those professional lighting, professional color, but damn it is gorgeous.

1:16:43 - Leo Laporte
I have a feeling this nightclub is not professional lighting. It looks pretty darn good. How would you, how would you, shoot a nightclub scene, alex, and make it still look like a nightclub with professional lighting? I know you still have to, you'd still shoot it at nightclub.

1:16:56 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, you know, like it's not. It's not that it's that much brighter, they're just shooting it in that environment. Now, what you're doing is they're shooting it in log, most likely, and in and then grading it.

1:17:06 - Jonathan Bennett
So they can grade it, you know and so they're, you know.

1:17:08 - Alex Lindsay
So that's. Look how beautiful this shot is. I mean, that is, that is stunning. The richness of the color, I mean all of it. I mean it's just now, of course, like that atmosphere that you see. There, that's a smoke, that's a hazer, there's a hazer in there. A lot of this footage, when you see those, when you see the, the highlights of the background, light reflected, anytime you see light rays or some kind of glow around the the light.

1:17:29 - Leo Laporte
Is it just a smoke machine, or is there something special that they use?

1:17:32 - Alex Lindsay
It's a hazer. There's. There's difference. There's a hazer and a smoke machine. A hazer will add a little bit of atmosphere. A smoke machine will be filled with smoke. So a lot of times when you see a dark scene, there's a hazer involved, right it's almost every film that you see is every indoor shot, or almost every indoor shot has some hazing. So they'll, they'll sit there and they, they run it just for a second or two and then they have. It goes like this and and and and waves it around so that it's it's it's.

1:18:01 - Leo Laporte
It's because light doesn't, doesn't, atmosphere doesn't, you can't light up air, so you got to give some thickness, yeah.

1:18:09 - Alex Lindsay
It creates this viscosity to the, to the, to the scene that that we're used to seeing. Actually, in fact, it was one of the reasons that we subconsciously will look at a movie and go that doesn't look like it was a high but a big budget movie and sometimes there's no hazer All the hazy now, you can know.

1:18:24 - Leo Laporte
And so the but it's cheap.

1:18:26 - Alex Lindsay
Get a hazer kids. There's a. They're not very expensive, I just just want to say that there.

1:18:31 - Leo Laporte
Well, you know, a lot of times I'll try with a camera and I'll shoot and light just just bouncing off a wall. It's just not the same as the, as the volumetric light you get and sometimes, if you're lucky and light streaming through a window, there's enough dust and stuff in the air to get some haze. But obviously a hazer I might just get up. Is there other pocket hazer I got?

1:18:51 - Alex Lindsay
one in the garage. I got one in the garage.

1:18:54 - Leo Laporte
I feel like I should just have one with me.

1:18:56 - Alex Lindsay
I have a what's really good what. What. What hazers are really good for is, if you really want to do lip sync at home, you get some DMX lighting and you get the hazer and you turn it on and it's. It takes it to the next.

1:19:07 - Leo Laporte
We have a hazer. John is pointing out a hazer. We have one in the studio. Why don't we use it more? I wouldn't mind a little hazy volume measure.

1:19:19 - Alex Lindsay
All I'll say is, if you're in the studio, just make sure that it's water based and not oil based. Oh God, I know that's all If it's water based, it's pretty great. If it's oil based, everything gets a little sticky. Not the first time, but a couple of times, you know. So yeah.

1:19:34 - Andy Ihnatko
Do you know that spinal spinal tap owes its origins to, like, a hazing slash smoke machine? What? Because they, chris, the core members of the group were on some sort of like Saturday special, whatever show, not as necessarily spinal tap per se, but as a band and they did this Busby Berkeley thing where they're lying on the floors or playing the guitar and a smoke machine was above them and was dripping ripping hot smoking oil onto their foreheads and they realized that this is exactly what, this, what if this were like our lives every single time we played music?

1:20:09 - Leo Laporte
Little consumer heads up from Apple insider the $300 vision pro developer strap. Don't get it, it's just a USB. No, no, do get it.

1:20:22 - Jason Snell
Do get it Well most people shouldn't get it. I got $300.

1:20:28 - Leo Laporte

1:20:29 - Jason Snell
First off, well for me, I have to take screenshots of things and the screenshot wirelessly is really bad and wired it's good. But no, no, there was a new story today. It can do thunderbolt, it can do display. It is not currently enabled to do much other than.

USB to speeds of, you know, very slow connections because it's it's starting somewhere, but it's capable of actually enormous bandwidth and functionality. And the question is, just when will that happen? No, we're a regular person out there. Don't buy it Right Like don't, but I bought one because I talked to a friend of mine who was taking a whole bunch of screenshots tethered, where you cannot have the foveated rendering, so they look really good. And he said, yeah, we, I had to reboot the vision pro all the time when I was doing the wireless captures and the wired captures have been solid. So for somebody like me who's in the business, this makes sense. But just to be clear, the capabilities of this thing are actually way beyond what's currently enabled, which is not super surprising given that the product just shipped, but apparently it's got. It's got a lot of capability inside of it, including thunderbolt capability, according to the story I read today.

1:21:40 - Leo Laporte
So yes, nine to five. Mac actually had the debunker. Jeff Benjamin said that you know. So this would be software enabled. Then right, you could enable it in software.

1:21:50 - Jason Snell
Yeah, it's all, it's all in there. The Apple just hasn't done it yet, but it opens up some interesting possibilities. That display port support If you have the ability to do some you know live video out, or maybe even do some video in from a from a Mac for development purposes. I think there's a lot more for this product. It's never going to be something anybody wants who isn't doing something very technical with it, but I got mine Now. I got now. I got a stupid dongle off the side of my thing but you get USB C.

1:22:18 - Leo Laporte
Job yeah Last last.

1:22:21 - Andy Ihnatko
It's a real Apple product.

1:22:22 - Leo Laporte
You've got a dongle a $300 dongle that can do more than Apple admits. Well, it's because they.

1:22:29 - Jason Snell
It's because they integrated the the really nice audio pods onto the hardware. It means that if you swap the strap out for a different strap, the audio pod comes with. So you have to get another one that has got the audio pod, the connection for the head for the different bands, and then on the back of it there's a USB C thingy which doesn't power. Doesn't power it, by the way. You still have to power it on the other side.

1:22:53 - Leo Laporte
Wonderful Stephen Troughton Smith says. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason the developer strap doesn't do a whole lot right now were because the mechanism for approving USB devices access in the UI, as on iOS, is just if deft out for 1.0.

1:23:08 - Jason Snell
It's not there. Yeah, a lot of 1.0 stuff.

1:23:10 - Leo Laporte
Be easy to, if undefeat. The OS seems to have everything it needs to USB host, yeah, and, and in fact, 10 base T, 100 megabit Ethernet, so so give me a Thunderbolt port and I'll tape it to my back and we'll be in business. Wow, that's cool, full Thunderbolt 4 cross domain connection 100 base T and USB 2 or 2 of the links. There's also display port and USB 3.

1:23:38 - Jason Snell
Well it's. It's telling that the the port that ships with it, the thing that ships with it, only has like a few pins on it to bring the audio out there, right, this thing's got way more pins on both sides. So obviously the Vision Pro itself that is the access point for a lot of for Thunderbolt and USB access is in that one side of the band and it's great that they made this available right, because I'm sure they had these inside Apple the whole time, and now developers and people like me who take lots of videos and screenshots and stuff will be able to to connect it to and maybe down the road, yeah, I'll be able to bring up, you know, wear a portable podcast rig with a proper wired microphone and who knows what else on my you know what utility vest of items that I carry around with me with it.

1:24:25 - Leo Laporte
There might be a new category, a Vision Pro streamer. You could be the first, Jason oh boy.

1:24:34 - Alex Lindsay
I won't be, I will, I'll be that person. Oh, alex, absolutely.

1:24:39 - Leo Laporte
Well, I mean, I was the guy who went around with a camera on a stick and got crowd surfed itself by Southwest. Maybe I'll be doing it. You could. If you could do spatial. You could do spatial video though. If you did that right, could you?

1:24:52 - Jason Snell
stream that Nobody could see it. Other people in Vision.

1:24:55 - Leo Laporte
Pros could see it Okay.

1:24:57 - Alex Lindsay
Once you get to critical mass.

1:24:58 - Leo Laporte
Everything's possible.

1:25:00 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, and and, and you know, I'm going to probably shoot some, some spatial, like just testing it, shooting some spatial at GDC, the game developers, and then that's prepping for, for for for thinking about it, but we're already. I mean so we're already kind of going down that path, but that's just with the phone and with, you know, with some spatial cameras, but it's not with the headset, I think a whole team of people jumping out of a van wearing prison Vision Pros be very exciting.

The streaming part's the hard part. Right now we don't have all that date.

1:25:28 - Leo Laporte
I mean it's I mean it's not a big deal. Then you hook it up to a Ustream.

1:25:32 - Alex Lindsay
It's going to be enough by itself, but we'll see I can't, alex.

1:25:36 - Andy Ihnatko
I wonder, like if who's going to be the first to come up with a video village app for the pro. So I have a screen capture. What's that what's a video village app?

1:25:45 - Alex Lindsay
Hold on, it's it's being able to see a bunch of screens all at the same time. If you're production Video feeds, yeah, and let's see.

1:25:51 - Leo Laporte
There's also like you're in a truck watching the Thursday night football. This was right.

1:25:56 - Alex Lindsay
Yeah, in our in office hours. Let me see if I can pull this over. We had a on Sunday. You know we do it all in Zoom actually, but we, but one of the this is one of our CJ Covel, who is in. He did, he had this up. So there's, this is CJ's. So this is what you're seeing below is his actual desk, and what you're seeing above is is Vision Pro, and so that is him pulling the the control room for Zoom. This is Zoom's.

1:26:33 - Leo Laporte
Zoom, it's like three stream decks taped together. Is that what he's got? Oh, that's common, we all do.

1:26:40 - Alex Lindsay
I thought at first oh, that's nice, he's got a switcher.

1:26:42 - Leo Laporte
No, it's a bunch of stream decks.

1:26:44 - Alex Lindsay
Well, he's got the switchers right behind it, so you see a little ATEM mini behind that, and then he's got these screens all up there. So, yeah, so CJ was testing this and he sent this and I was like, oh man, that's cool, that's hard. So, and there's already folks I mean people have been doing this in in the Ocul, in the, you know, in the Meta headsets for a while. So the quests have been, you know, so you can get those screens in there. But that's, that's it from the Vision Pro from Sunday.

1:27:10 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, so you're ready, John Ashley, to do the whole show from a Vision Pro instead of behind the console there.

1:27:16 - Jason Snell
So you're saying you're going to buy me a Vision Pro.

1:27:18 - Leo Laporte
No Just give me more. Yeah, I mean, bring your own Vision Pro. We don't have the means yet, we don't have the ways to do it, we don't have enough stream decks, but someday we will. Actually, you would, you would have to have. I guess ATEM has a software interface that you could project into. Oh, yeah, yeah.

1:27:38 - Alex Lindsay
So you can do it with the.

1:27:39 - Leo Laporte
ATEM. Yeah, oh, maybe John. Just you know, hang in there, Depends how many people join Club Twit tonight.

1:27:47 - Jason Snell
So you're saying we need okay.

1:27:48 - Leo Laporte
I'm telling you right now, if you're not a member of Club Twit and you want John Ashley to do this entire show in a Vision Pro, your hands. We only need 500 more people to join and that and John Ashley, could, you, could, you could save John Ashley's life. You're gonna. You're gonna save our lives, that's for sure. We we like every other mainstream media, alternative media and podcast network in the world we're suffering.

Advertisers have discovered Marquez Brownlee and they all all the money's going to Marquez. So if you, if you like what we do and you'd like us to keep going I know we're kind of an old-fashioned operation compared to that you could join the club. You get some benefits ad-free versions of all the shows, additional shows that we don't put out in public hands on Macintosh with Michael's, michael Sargent, the hands-on windows show with Paul Theriot. Untitled Linux show with Jonathan Bennett and company. We have home theater geek Scott Wilkins, this great show about AV. All of that in iOS today, now inside the club, plus the twit plus feed with action before and after each show.

I think there was a long, interesting conversation before this show, as a matter of fact, that we'll make it into the twit plus feed. My favorite part is the discord love hanging out there. It is a great social Community made up of twit fans, but talking about everything Geek would be interested in all of that for seven bucks a month and mostly the good feeling knowing that you're Helping John Ashley get his vision, helping this poor lad get his vision pro. Oh, how many. Let's see if we don't need to consider tax.

1:29:21 - Jason Snell
Don't forget tax, tax accessories, accessories, I say 600, 600 new members.

1:29:26 - Leo Laporte
We do it. I'd like to see a thousand new members right now. That's all I want. Go right now to YouTube. I'm sorry, tv Cuz, we're not. I mean we are on YouTube but you know we're not. We're not a big influencer kind of operation here, twitter, and you don't want us to be. I think. Twit, tv slash club, twit. We'd love to have you as a member picks of the week coming up next on MacBreak Weekly. Let's start the picks of the week. I'll do one. I never do a pick of the week every once in a while.

I this is a silly pick, but you know I run menu bar all the time on my laptop because that notch, if you have a lot of items in your menu, can actually they can actually I don't know why Apple lets this happen Go under the, the notch and they disappear. Now bartender solves that and I love bartender and it's a great solution, but it is 20 bucks. Here's a command line that couldn't maybe help you. This is from only Hakala, hakala, built-in workaround For applications, hundred hiding under the Mac. But pro notch turns out there is, but I love terminal commands on the Mac. There is a defaults command that will do this.

Change the padding defaults. Space dash current host, right dash global domain n s s. I'm sorry, n s no. Ns stands for next step. It's still there, folks. Ns status item selection padding. It's a dash, I n t. Six is a good start but you can make it even smaller and as status item spacing in six you change those you can. I'll tell you. I'll put these in the show notes so you can try it in your own. Your own, and he actually has. He or she has a picture of what their menu bar looks like when you reduce the padding. There is a lot of padding when you look at it.

1:31:25 - Jason Snell
There's a lot of use. Previous pick bartender. This I love bartender, do this inside bartender, but you don't. This is free because it's just right into the default. Yeah, as only points out bartender's 20 euros.

1:31:39 - Leo Laporte
This is free. Now I, like I said I paid for bartender because I love all the features of bartender.

1:31:44 - Andy Ihnatko
They just, it just folds it up underneath the little, yeah, little bracket but the only disadvantage, of course, is that if you keep at, it'll solve your current problem, like if your menu bar. Exactly word yeah exactly If you keep adding stuff to it. Obviously now you're adding more stuff.

1:31:58 - Leo Laporte
I'll imagine that goes and wins. Yeah, this is padding six, so there is some, there's some room for more. I mean, it's pretty usable, even with six. You could go down, you could go down more. And as a little bonus feature, you can also revert by deleting the global domain NS status item selection padding and in a status item, spacing Setting and it'll bring you back to the default. Love that, that's my pick of the week. A command line, a little terminal command line thing? No, no biggie. How about you, mr Snell, what you got?

1:32:35 - Jason Snell
it back in 1954. They were doing a lot of 3d movies and and they thought it was gonna be the bees knees, I mean, you know what it wasn't a bee's knees. No, oh the one where they're All still step dual strip, polarized 3d. So guess what happened? They? They convinced Grandmaster director Alfred Hitchcock to shoot a movie in stereo. And he did what? And by the time? It came out.

Nobody wanted to watch a 3d movie. So, other than some limited theater releases in 54 and a re-release that was very briefly in some theaters in 1980, nobody has seen the 3d version of dial M for murder. Guess what? What? If you buy it on Apple TV as a purchase, one of the versions that you get is the 3d version to watch on the vision and is it red, blue, or oh, no, no, no no, no, no no, no, no, no, it's it was.

1:33:36 - Alex Lindsay
It was. It was sorry if.

1:33:37 - Andy Ihnatko
I can, if I'm gonna interrupt only because I saw it when it was Re-released and its original format of the Coolish corner theater in Brookline, where it's not. It wasn't red green, it was where you're using polarized polarized.

1:33:49 - Leo Laporte
It was a real deal.

1:33:50 - Andy Ihnatko
Actually, there are actually two projectors in the lamphouse when you see, when you see 3d and a big, huge old movie theater with real color. Oh my god, this was a great movie. Because it wasn't. It wasn't one of these doctor, he was doctor. Oh look, would you like some coffee? Yeah, exactly, he was thinking in terms of like, like James Cameron, like here is probably can get people to. I'm gonna cause some tension by having something happening in the background and put something in the foreground that you can't quite see.

1:34:21 - Leo Laporte
It's a very good movie. It's well worth it.

1:34:23 - Jason Snell
It's a good movie and you talk about I mean so, not a conversion Actually shot stereo. I would say you put this next to Hugo, which was directed by Martin Scorsese. These few examples of properly shot by Among the like top 10 directors of all time. There are a couple, and this is one of them, and the part that I can't believe is it there was a 3d blu-ray release a few years ago when they were doing that, but now it's just in the library. It's one of the 200 3d movies that are currently in Apple's library for purchaser rental. So dial in for murder.

1:34:58 - Leo Laporte
Watch Hitchcock, as was intended, in a VR helmet, oh, my god, that might actually be worth buying a vision pro to do oh my god, I suddenly, I suddenly, I'm suddenly having that terrible thought I have $3,500. Hey, don't send back the vision pro to like and watch this movie. Okay, wow, wow, wow, wow. Very good tip. Thank you, andy, and I go.

1:35:26 - Andy Ihnatko
Yes, yes pick of the week. I'm really excited about this one. One of my favorite and most important productivity tools ever was an app called wonder list, because it was just so simple as a list manager from the wonder kids, and then Microsoft bought it.

Microsoft bought it and then said thank you for your, your database of user of users, we don't need any good Bye. And so he was. The creators were seething, clearly, because they started working on. Okay, guess what we're gonna kick your butt, microsoft, to do? They just released super list today and I've been using it all morning, and the highest praise I can give any new piece of software that I that I try is that I filed six bug reports, but have no intention of slowing down using this tool.

I there are a million, there are million to-do list and task managers are a million notes apps. There are only a couple that work the way that you personally happen to work, and Super list seems to be exactly that for me. I need something that can quickly capture ideas and tasks From wherever I am and make make it not a fuss about it not having okay now that, now that you've said buy sugar, we need you to add a context to it and also a free team frame like no, just remember. I just want to remember I need sugar. So it's a. It makes very, very easy to capture that stuff. Not only that, though, however. Your lists can be a mixture of like what you would expect to be like list type actionable items and Like markup style text. So, as a result, it's not just you don't have to keep doing things like I wanted to. Here's something I want to write about in the next two or three weeks. I don't have to, like make each little note to myself into a different actionable item. I could just have one action item. That is just right about that this, this, this, and then I've daughter or I've child Items underneath it that are here are some resources and here is like a weak outline of bullet list of stuff that I want to mention. Well, I'm going through that also.

It's very, it's really beautifully made. It's. If you're using Ulysses, you'll be very familiar to it. It's a very left to right sort of interface where, like every list and every project and every Group that you have is on the left. As you keep drilling down, more pains open to the right and scroll so that it's very, very easy to be inside one task but be accessed, be able to access other tasks, tasks really really quickly.

The other thing that makes it a big, big win for me is that it is multi-platform. Okay, it's iOS. I will say that. I will say that it's not an iPad app, it will run. It will run as a blown-up iPhone app on the iPad. It's terrible, but good news is that you can have a much better version of it on the iPad if you run the web version of that app. And there's also an Android app. So no matter what device I have in front of me, I can work on this dashboard of ideas and schedules and stuff Absolutely immediately. It does have some bugs, so be aware of that.

Maybe, if you want to action on this, maybe in a week, because I've already I filed six. I've already gotten feedback from the previous, from the makers, on three of them, so they're clearly like on on on the ball for all of this. And it's also it's very much in the same vein as the original Wonderlist that if you are just using it for personal stuff sort of personal business or personal tasks it's free, and they say it's gonna be free on that level forever. You can. You can, course, to use it in work group settings of at the free tier. You can share up to five lists with up to five people. I think, yes, five, share list with five people. It's also integrated with Gmail, google Calendar, microsoft to do email integrations. If you go for the For the pro package at ten bucks a month and that's billed monthly you get a discount. If you buy it for the year, unlimited shared lists up to 25 people, you can have 500 megabyte individual uploads, 250 gigs of storage, a couple other features. It also integrates with a small number of apps. Right now it does integrate with Slack, notion, google Calendar, github, a bunch of the things. Obviously, this is just early days. I'm hoping that they'll have an integration with Ulysses earlier on because Really, after ten minutes, I was easily imagining Just having this on one side of my iPad screen that was before I downloaded the app on iPad and realized it was terrible and also having like Ulysses on the other half of my screen and just moving stuff that I'm writing from.

Hey, this is something I want to write eventually to. Okay, this is now in the active Planning, active writing stages. Like I said, try it off yourself because, again, these things are really individual. But I could not be happier to see, to see this tool. I I love it when I try something. I'm good. My expectations were high because, like I said, I was a big fan of Wonderlist, but I immediately said this solves heroes list of the problems that this solves for me, and here is how fast I think I can get Through some stuff that was challenging. Now that I have this, I can easily imagine this being a central role in Like my daily work.

1:40:28 - Leo Laporte
I worked with the team. It looks like the team integration is really cool, Like having messages for your team and stuff like that.

1:40:35 - Andy Ihnatko
This is really nice yeah and makes it easy to Separate. Here's my personal list with yours. Here are shared lists, yeah it's it's all.

The basics are that it's a little bit Like vision pro, where it's not 100% there yet, but everything that is there is choice and Proves that the future decisions are probably going to be as smart as the decisions that they've already made. Go to superlistcom to sign up and, as I, just absolutely free and free forever, so long as you only got five people that you're working with integrates with Gmail, google Calendar, slack, linear notion, microsoft to do of cars and GitHub.

1:41:11 - Leo Laporte
That's cool. Wow, the Wunderkins are back, having spent all the money they got from Microsoft on some fabulous Berlin kind of cofta. Now they have to get back to work and make another list. But you know what this is second generation. You figure they're gonna, they're gonna be way ahead of the game on this. That's cool.

1:41:31 - Andy Ihnatko
Yeah, yeah. They also got 15 million dollars worth of with with the funding on top of that. Oh wow, it's not as though this isn't just a side project. This is clearly like their next business. So very nice.

1:41:42 - Leo Laporte
Yeah, it looks really good. Alex Lindsey pick of the week.

1:41:46 - Alex Lindsay
It's one of the things, one of the cool things that Condor Blue does is that they partner with Creators and just say rather than us figure out how to build a product, why don't you figure out how to build? Tell us what you want to do. And in this case, they. They partnered with a really great creator, tyler Stalman, and Tyler is on, you know, he does a lot on YouTube and and tiktok and and Twitter, and they, they, they were solving an interesting Problem, which is that when we go 9 by 16, how do you get power and data and everything else out of your phone now that we can record it, you know, to an external hard drive and everything else. And so they built this, what they're calling the I think it's called what do they call this? The Stalman clamp.

1:42:27 - Leo Laporte
Stalman clamp for photography.

1:42:28 - Alex Lindsay
So the big thing is it's not the cheapest clamp you're going to find it's 75 bucks, but it is. So a couple of things. It's got a 40 gig right angle, which is a big deal. Like when you're trying to get, trying to find these, a lot of times you're not sure whether you're going to buy them or not because you don't know if they're really going to be 40 gigs. So it's a right angle. Usb-c, so that means you can hook it to your drive and then you're going to figure out where am I going to put my drive and of course there's a quarter 20 right here. So there's a quarter 20 right here where you can put your drive in. There's a quarter 20 on the top and on the bottom it's stiff. Like when you put it in you don't feel like your phone is going to fall out, and so it's a. Really. You know this is a like I want to do production at nine by 16.

And so you know if you're doing stuff for TikTok and YouTube and everything else like this is a production level clamp and let's see if I put it up here like this.

But you can see how it kind of if I get my eyes out of the man Sony is, but you can see how it now See, I'm going to ruin it by turning it sideways so I can show it to you like, there you go, but anyway, but on the vertical, and of course it's got a quarter 20 on the bottom so you can put it on a tripod or anything else that you'd like to put it on, and so it's a. It's a, I you know, pretty, very, very well built. I guess you know, and I think that that's the thing that is a complaint of mine I want clamps that I'm using, whether it's nine by 16 or 16 by nine to be, you know, metal and stiff, and I'm putting a $2,000 piece of hardware into it. I'd like it to make sure that it stays there, and so, and it's just really really well built. So that's my, my pick.

1:43:58 - Leo Laporte
I you know, when I'm on the road, I use my iPhone as my camera because it's really among the best cameras I've got. I don't use it for anything else, but I think this would be a really handy thing to have. I might send one to my mom's house.

1:44:11 - Alex Lindsay
Well, the big thing is is that when you do it on nine by 16, what this solves is when you clamp all the other clamps that might handle nine by 16, they block off the bottom, that that USB-C, so you can't leave it powered and you can't get a hard drive onto it. If you want to record, cause, you know, now you might want to record, log, uh, apple ProRes in nine by 16. And you can't do that, you know, to an external drive without, without a clamp like this one, because the other clamps are all going to block that, that bottom access, you know, and so, um. So this one's really specific to the nine by 16, um needs, uh, but you could turn it to the side as well and it'll still. You know it still works to the side.

1:44:51 - Leo Laporte
It looks like it's also specific to the 15 because of the little C it has for the camera bump.

1:44:57 - Alex Lindsay
This one, I think, is built for the 15.

1:44:59 - Leo Laporte
Like I, I, you really want it for that phone.

1:45:01 - Alex Lindsay
It may have had an adapter. I have to go back and look at the box. I just pulled it out.

1:45:04 - Leo Laporte
They say for the 15, my, you know, he says yeah.

1:45:08 - Alex Lindsay
So I mean the I. What I will say is that the production, how I view, you know, the new production on the iPhone, has changed dramatically in the 15. Like the 15, isn't? It's not like a minor update from the 14, the fit, you know, with the USB C connection, uh, you know, with, you know, the added um features inside of the lenses and everything else. It's it's just a different camera and the USB C has probably made the biggest difference because now we can get, we can plug in hard drives, we can plug in, you know, interfaces, audio interfaces, um, you know, I was, you know, recording something in um a last week and I was, you know, plugging in a, a sound devices interface for for instruments and everything else, into my phone.

You know, and and so, and I find myself I keep on grabbing this effect.

This FX 30 is a great um.

The Sony that I'm using is a great camera for my webcam, but every time I take it off and I start shooting with it, I find myself very quickly just going back to my phone like, do I really need this right now, because it's going to add a lot more to my workflow, you know, and so, um, so anyway.

So it's, a lot of these tools are starting to become pretty industrial and because of the Apple, I think the big thing that's happened because Apple um did a keynote with a phone the race. I mean I think that NAB is going to be super exciting, um, to see what everyone's building for the phone, because they're, you know, uh tilt us building a new, new rig based on the guys that worked on that keynote um, blue condors going crazy, a small rig, and then there's going to be lots of other ones that are going to build for it. So it's really going to be an interesting time. But this kind of device, where you're seeing something that doesn't feel like a toy, it feels like a real, uh piece of hardware, is um part of that, part of that growth.

1:46:46 - Leo Laporte
Nice Condor blue with a K K O N D O R B? L? U E dot com. The Stalman clamp for vertical filmmakers.

1:46:54 - Alex Lindsay
You know, you know they have a whole section here. I think I don't know if they have it on the website. Um, there is a hold on. Let's see if they have it on the website. There is a whole. When I went to see con, I was in film tools in LA, which is like my, one of my favorite places in the LA. That's film tools, um and uh uh, film tools and location sound are like the two places that I always want to go visit just to hang out. Um, and I was going through and looking for something and I came around the back and condor blue has a whole justine as a rick section.

Yeah, so it's like like all these, all these things, and it's not blue, it's pink.

1:47:25 - Leo Laporte
You know. So yes, it ought to be. She's featured in there highlight reel. So, uh, yeah, good enough for justine. Is that emory wells on the right?

1:47:35 - Alex Lindsay
No, no, I don't think so, but but I think that what they're, again, what they're, what I think they're doing really well, is to really partner with the, with the um, the people who use their stuff Rather than yeah it's, you know, really building something that they're going to get behind.

Because it you're. When you ask a creator for input, they're going to give you one set of um ideas. When you say we're going to put your name on it, and they give you a whole different set of ideas. Yeah, Because, and they're much more, uh, uh particular. I think the person you thought there was, Gerald Undone, who's also an incredible creator, has gotten some stuff on there as well.

1:48:11 - Leo Laporte
That's right, gerald, undone, uh, but I justine signature cables. They're all in. I think we've talked about this before. It's funny. I feel like we have.

1:48:21 - Alex Lindsay
I think it was cause I think I noticed it there was a whole section. There was just something about just eating stuff and film at film tools was, was was awesome, that's hysterical.

1:48:31 - Leo Laporte
Get the complete set. Uh, thank you very much, Alex Lindsey. Office hours. That global the place to go If you want to see what's going on in the world of multimedia production, or Superbowl 58 graphics we did get it back up.

1:48:46 - Alex Lindsay
It came back. I don't know what you saw before, but it is playing there, so I don't know why yours isn't playing, because ours is playing. Oh, I can watch it on YouTube.

1:48:54 - Leo Laporte
That's what it is, so you have to click the link and then go to YouTube. You can't watch it on your site. So that is weird thing that YouTube sometimes does. There you are. This was fun to watch. I watched you doing it live. It was really interesting.

1:49:08 - Alex Lindsay
Uh, yeah, it's yeah we love doing these teardowns. Yeah Now if I do.

1:49:12 - Leo Laporte
I can't show that cause, then they'll take me down, so let's go back to the video and available button. Thank you, alex. Office hours, that global. And of course, don't forget gray matter Show always some great guests on that. Michael Krasny interview the brain on psychedelics this week.

1:49:31 - Alex Lindsay
It was really good. It was a. Really, you know, it's interesting to listen to an actual researcher talk about the real details of all that. You know it's. You know the, and there's. What he talked about in the show is that he said the.

The change in, you know, dealing with depression and so on and so forth, with some of these, some of these drugs, is the last time we had something that was that made this big of a difference was when we realized that citrus would help when you were on the on a boat. Wow, you know, like, you know it's. It's a huge change. Because he's like talking about oh, yeah, the depression goes away in two and a half days, and Michael was like well, it gets better and he goes. No, no, it goes away. Wow, you know, and so it's, it's an entirely different. Yeah, like, like you know, and he's and he's breaking down. You know how it affects the brain's plasticity and, of course, these are under.

He's not. He's not recommending that these become. Oh, he's a physician. He's like. He's not. He's not saying party time. Yeah, he's like this is control. This is a controlled substance. He's not saying that everyone should use it, but he is saying that we should be using it in in the medical arena to make a difference, and it was a really you know, it's really fascinating conversation.

1:50:41 - Leo Laporte
There seems to be more and more evidence of that. That's really yeah. I can't wait to listen to that gray matter Show. Andy, and not co, you're going to be on the radio right.

1:50:52 - Andy Ihnatko
Not this week, but next week, next Thursday at 12, ooh, I think 1240. Go to wgphnewsorg, listen to it live or later or to hear any of my previous tech news discussions. Conversations rankings for 20, 30 minutes.

1:51:06 - Leo Laporte
I should have worn my NFC championship hat. You're wearing your Giants uh.

1:51:11 - Andy Ihnatko
World Series champion. I'm sure, I'm sure I'm sure I'm nothing against Kansas city. I've got your. It was a great game. You both have reasons to be very, very happy, but I was. I decided to show my sympathies. Also, it's the nicest hat I have at this point. It's a great way to buy a new Red Sox hat, cause now it looks like now, now, now, now it'll look like the gas station attended on Dukes of hazard and that's with that hat on.

1:51:31 - Leo Laporte
So I mean a few more weeks still, pictures and catchers report.

1:51:33 - Andy Ihnatko
You know you're going to uh, the finest, finest sentence in English, or I'll say, I'll say there is no finer sentence than pictures and catchers.

1:51:42 - Leo Laporte
Yes, it's pictures and catchers report. This month Opening day is March 28th. It's nice early opening day. So, uh, I don't know. You're a Giants fan also, mr Jason. Now you'll find him at six colorscom. You've got. Have you gone down Arizona for spring training? Ever I have, I have a few times. Yeah, that's fun.

1:52:04 - Jason Snell
It's fun. It's. I mean, at this point it used to be like a really kind of out of the way thing and now it's just an industry. The planes fill up, the fares from here to Phoenix are really expensive and the tickets are expensive Like it is a whole thing. But it's fun and it's nice if you're coming from someplace cold, especially to go to someplace that is not cold usually, which is Phoenix.

1:52:24 - Leo Laporte
I've been down to the in the old days. Or you go to the pink pony and you see every player would be there, and it was yeah, I go to Don Charlie's.

1:52:30 - Jason Snell
All those places are gone Basically, like it's it's.

1:52:33 - Jonathan Bennett
it's a different scene, but it's very Scott's deal manages to still be basically like a it's a city, but it's also a bar, essentially.

1:52:40 - Leo Laporte
It's pictures and catchers report today.

1:52:42 - Jason Snell
Yeah, yeah, they're.

1:52:43 - Leo Laporte
They're reporting now today, tomorrow's the first work out of the way. Forget it, it's over. Football's over. Let's talk about baseball. Six colorscom, the place to go read Jason's review of the vision pro and he also did a whole. No needn't do the whole show in the vision pro Just no, we just did a little clip.

1:53:03 - Jason Snell
It's on YouTube at the upgrade podcast YouTube channel If you want to watch just the eight minutes or whatever we did with our, our personas on and lots of vision pro coverage on the upgrade podcast this week and last. If people want to hear more about vision pro next week your 500th episode next week is episode 500.

We do a thing. We do a thing where every on the hundreds, the last couple hundred, where we do a draft, a prediction draft, of what will be true in a hundred episodes. So next week we'll be scoring our choices from episode 400 and making our predictions for that sounds like fun. So that'll be good.

1:53:44 - Leo Laporte
That sounds really awesome. Thank you, jason. Now. Thank you, andy, and not go. Thank you, alex Lindsay. Thanks to our club twit members for making this show possible.

We do MacBreak Weekly every Tuesday, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 1900 UTC. I mentioned that because you can watch us stream it live. We thought maybe we'd put that behind the paywall, but unfortunately this court's video options are so terrible we decided now we're going to put it on YouTube too. So when the show starts we start streaming YouTubecom slash twit. We stop streaming as soon as the show's over, so you don't get the interstitial stuff unless you're a club member. But if you want to watch us do it live, you can, and that's true for all the shows that we put out in the public, especially true for Ask the Tech guys, because we take live calls during that show. So we need to have a live stream for you.

After the fact, on demand versions of this show available at the website There's a YouTube channel devoted to MacBreak Weekly so you can see the video there. Particularly useful if you want to share a clip or a little bit or, you know, show somebody what we're talking about. That helps us too, so please share away. The other thing that helps us is if you subscribe. That way you'll get every episode automatically find, find your favorite podcast to player and subscribe. And, of course, you can always join club Twitter,, slash, club twit. Thanks for joining us. Have a great week. We'll see you next time. Now I just my sad and solemn duty to tell you time to get back to work because break time is over. Bye bye!

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