Windows Weekly Episode 791 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word.
Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte (00:00:00):
It's time for windows weekly. Paul Thora and Mary Jo Foer here celebrating the 27th anniversary of the launch of windows 95. Paul's a little upset because outlook mobile's now displaying more ads. Mary Jo's got a rant too, because she doesn't like the way outlook looks anymore. Google's getting outta the IOT business and new ways to stream the latest games. It's all coming up next on windows, weekly podcasts you love

Mary Jo Foley (00:00:32):
From people you trust.

Leo Laporte (00:00:34):
This is,

Leo Laporte (00:00:40):
This is windows weekly with Paul throt and Mary Jo Foley episode 791 recorded Wednesday, August 24th, 2022 Theran of the century. This episode of windows weekly is brought to you by collide. Collide is an end point security solution that gives it teams, a single dashboard for all devices, regardless of their operating system. Visit collide.com/ww. To learn more and activate a free 14 day trial today, no credit card required and by Lenovo orchestrated by the experts at C D w to help transform your organization with Lenovo think pads equipped with the Intel Evo platform for effortless connectivity and collaboration from anywhere. Learn more at C E dw.com/lenovo client. And by new Relic use the data platform made for the curious, right now you can get access to the whole new Relic platform and 100 gigabytes of data per month. Free forever. No credit card required. Sign up at new relic.com/windows. Hello winners. Hello dozers. You both are in the right place, cuz it's time for windows weekly with our, our, our celebrity hosts on on your right Mary Jo Foley. All about microsoft.com. The stunning new lime green ZD net.com. Hello, Mary Jo. Hello? Hello on your left. Paul thr of thra.com, which hasn't been redesigned since the late nineties

Paul Thurrott (00:02:15):
And it's well it's

Leo Laporte (00:02:18):
Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:02:18):
It's not that old.

Leo Laporte (00:02:19):
It's not that it's not even that old. It just looks that way. No, I'm kidding. I'm teasing. I love it.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:25):
Listen, I don't understand what your problem is with the default word, press fi you know

Leo Laporte (00:02:30):
Style, but yeah, what just outta curiosity. What what template? Oh, I have

Paul Thurrott (00:02:34):
No idea. I have no idea. I think it

Leo Laporte (00:02:35):
Looks good.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:36):
I'm not, it is gonna be updated soon. I'm

Leo Laporte (00:02:38):
Not knocking it. Well, yeah. Now Mary Jo and seen it have put you to shame.

Paul Thurrott (00:02:43):
No, no. <Laugh> I don't think, I don't think we, this was just something we need to do. It's not. Yeah. Bladed in any competitive

Mary Jo Foley (00:02:51):
Understanding. If it was up to me, you guys know me in graphics, like if it was up to me, I'd be like, eh, it looks fine. So what if it's 40 years old? It looks good.

Leo Laporte (00:02:58):
Well, we had Jason Heiner on TWiTt on Sunday.

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:02):
Yeah. I saw you guys had him

Leo Laporte (00:03:04):
The E IIC at ZD net. And he talked about the six month design process and all that stuff. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:03:10):
Six months. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Our ours is taken about three years so far and it's not done. So let let's

Mary Jo Foley (00:03:17):
Also have, have a bunch of designers too. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:03:20):
So the, the, yeah, the thing that I and I, I told Jason, I really like is, and I think it's a trend now is clean lines, you know, very simple. Sure. And that's something that websites over time, crushed crucify mm-hmm <affirmative> my site, which we went through an extensive expensive redesign, what was that 10 years ago? And it was very clean and simple, but as time has gone by, you know, everybody says, well, we want this, we want that. We need this. We now have to have that. And then look at all this stuff. And so this, all, all of this, this whole below the page thing is new. It's been added subsequently. Yep. This whole, this carousel is new added subsequently. So it's what happens is time goes by, it gets crucified. Sure. And then you gotta, you know, pay another quarter of a million dollars in six months. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:12):
Exactly. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:04:13):
And and unfed it. But I liked it. I like the design. I think it's nice. And I told him that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:04:19):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:04:20):
Okay. Yeah. oh, should we talk about windows? <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:04:24):
It's fine. We can, I don't wanna be weird about it, but

Leo Laporte (00:04:27):
<Laugh> windows 11. There is now there's a name for 22 H two.

Paul Thurrott (00:04:38):
Well,

Leo Laporte (00:04:40):
Maybe

Paul Thurrott (00:04:41):
<Laugh> well,

Leo Laporte (00:04:42):
A

Paul Thurrott (00:04:43):
Qualified, this goes back. This is look among my many pet peeves with Microsoft these days and windows in particular and related to the subject that I think Mary Jo and I both agree on with when it comes to complaining, which is communications. Microsoft has always done a really terrible job of explaining what things are, you know, giving things, names mm-hmm <affirmative>. So the, the premise here is that based on some screens from U one of our, my users sent me an E a screenshot of this. It looks like the update that will bring you to windows 11 version 22 H two will be called the windows 11 20 22 update. Now, aside from the tongue tying nature of what I just said, <laugh> and two different ways of saying something 22 H two versus 2022. My, this is something Microsoft has done in the past where they've said, Hey, you're running windows.

Paul Thurrott (00:05:39):
And then they'll say the name of the update. And no, you are not running that thing. <Laugh> and that's what literally this Microsoft se update or Microsoft screen says, it says, you're now running the windows 11 20, 22 update. No, you're not. <Laugh> no, you're not. That's the name of the update. It's not the name of the version of windows. It's still, unless they, and they could change this too. And that, that would be fine. But to date, they have not, that version of windows is called windows 11, version 22 H two. That's what you're running. <Laugh> you update, you ran the update to upgrade to this version, but the name of the update is not what you're running.

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:23):
<Laugh> right.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:24):
I mean, I, I it's, I know it sounds like semantics, except that if we're all speaking a different language, then we can't communicate effectively. Like, and Microsoft, this is a Microsoft screen. They do this routinely. They do this in the windows, insider blog, post they'll they'll interchange. The name of the version of windows with the name of the update. They got you there. Mm-Hmm

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:43):
<Affirmative>. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:06:45):
And it makes me crazy. And I know it's, but

Mary Jo Foley (00:06:46):
You don't wanna go back to like creator's update and all that. I

Paul Thurrott (00:06:50):
Don't know, actually, you know what? I don't care. My, my point is, yeah. When it was the creator's update, you were not running the creator's update. <Laugh> you use the creator's update to upgrade to windows. I get it. 10 version.

Leo Laporte (00:07:01):
I get what you

Paul Thurrott (00:07:02):
Oh, nine away course.

Leo Laporte (00:07:03):
Yes. Yeah. So there's the update, which is the thing you're applying to get you to a point that you are not running the update. You're running, whatever that,

Paul Thurrott (00:07:10):
Both those things have names. Both of those things are different things. Both of those things have to, it would be

Leo Laporte (00:07:15):
An ideal way to do this. I, I think the problem with creators is numbers. It doesn't tell you sequentially, so you need to do numbers. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:07:22):
Right. I love the number thing when we were doing like 18 0 9, 19 0 2, like what was wrong with that? That was good. Well,

Paul Thurrott (00:07:28):
They still are. Right. But it

Leo Laporte (00:07:29):
Wasn't tied, but the dates were a, a burden because what if they didn't get it out in those?

Paul Thurrott (00:07:34):
The, the other, the other problem with this name is there, when you think about it, the very notion that there is a windows 11, 20, 22 update is insane. There have been several 20, 22 or updates in 2022, right there so far, there will probably be another one. And this gets into another area, you know, we've rebranded everything. We, we always talk about this. We used to have betas and release candidates. We would have the RTM version GA. We had these terms, you know, and we have these rolling kind of releases, whatever we have at least three weeks a month where cumulative updates are applied to windows. Some of them advance the version number of the operating system, the build number. We, we have different ways to refer to all this stuff. And I'm just, I, I look, we can debate what the best system would be. I guess the problem is they keep changing how they name things. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but they keep screwing up how they name things too. <Laugh> and I, I just, I don't, I don't know, you know what, this, this is just my biggest pet pee it's

Mary Jo Foley (00:08:38):
It's gonna be, I think this is gonna get, it's gonna get worse. If so, if the rumors are true, like if we are going to this new schedule where there's one major update every three years. So let's just say first simplicity, the next one is windows 12, right? What do you call all the updates between now? I know. And then yes. What, especially if they aren't doing feature updates once a year in the second half of the year, which that's what Zach Boden heard. He heard they may do away with that, right? So there might be four different updates up to four different updates that are called internally moments. But what are we gonna call? 'em Like, like, how are we gonna refer to you're on the one that came out in September versus the one that came out in February. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:09:20):
You know, it's, it's tricky enough to have to go to a company like Microsoft and say, what do you call this thing? Because I want to call it the right thing. And then to be told three different things, cuz they have no idea how to call it,

Mary Jo Foley (00:09:32):
What to

Paul Thurrott (00:09:32):
Call it. And yeah, like I said, in some ways I don't really care. I, we had this conversation maybe a week or two ago, but I still believe they need to release something. We'll call it the twenty, twenty two update the 20, 23. Yes. Because there are two things going on. They have to hand off this thing to PC makers, which I guess they could just update rolling over time. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but they also have these licensable moments with their enterprise customers where a support life cycle is tied to this thing. Right. You can't just do away with feature updates. That's how you determine the support life cycle of a product. So, you know, we have we have short term support. We have longer term support versions. You know, some updates are supported for a very short period of time. Some are longer.

Paul Thurrott (00:10:18):
Like I said, I don't really, honestly I couldn't care less what the system is. I just want them to know what it is. I want them to be able to communicate it effectively. And I wanna be able to explain what it is to other people who don't understand it. And they keep, you know, they keep, you know, moving the, the ball there, but <laugh> I, I don't feel like there's any under, I I'd love to speak to someone who knew what this even meant. I mean, it's just, it, it, I don't know. It's just, it's frustrating. I, I dunno if you

Mary Jo Foley (00:10:43):
Could tell, especially doing a book, I'm sure are people who are trying to do any kind of documentation, right? Cause you wanna say the exact terminology that's being used, but if it's, if there is no like one standard, what do you do with that?

Paul Thurrott (00:10:55):
Right. I always the story I always tell, and this is before things got really messed up was in 20, was it 2010? I think Microsoft announced windows phones, seven series. At the time I called my guys and I said, I'm writing a book about this. I will write the first book about windows phone. I need to come there immediately. And I need to see this. And I said, you can come here. We can't give you one yet. It was too early. Come to the the campus. We'll give you a phone, we'll lock you in a room, which is literally a dungeon. And you can, you can take pictures of every screen. You can write down what, every single, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I did this, I did this for two days straight. And at the end of two days, I sat down, it was Charlie Kendall.

Paul Thurrott (00:11:31):
And I forget people's names now. Greg Craig, Craig, Greg was there, Greg Sullivan and someone else, the guy who's now gone. But and I said, okay, I have a list of questions. And I, a lot of these questions were, what are these things called? And the answer was, oh, well we don't really have names for those. I said, no, you do have names to them. Yeah. They have names because they have to discuss it. No, they said, well, they said, no, we don't. I said, no, no, no, no. It's implemented in software. This thing in software code is called a thing. There is a name.

Leo Laporte (00:12:01):
When you go and you sit in a room at a big table with a bunch of people. Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:12:05):
<Affirmative>. Yep.

Leo Laporte (00:12:06):
And you're talking about the thing. What do

Paul Thurrott (00:12:08):
You call Microsoft? You know, they're like the comp the, the parents that come home from a, a, a hospital with a baby and people say, is it a boy or girl? They say, boy, great. What did you call it? Oh, we haven't given a name yet. Really? <laugh> really? You, you took it home from the hospital. Yeah. And you don't have a name for him really?

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:28):
So that happened to me in real life, but okay. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:12:30):
Did it really? <Laugh> okay. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I mean, I'm just saying,

Leo Laporte (00:12:34):
Wait a minute, you had a baby. When was, when was, or are you talking about your

Mary Jo Foley (00:12:36):
Cat? No. No. When I was, when I was born, my parents couldn't agree on a name for me. And so they brought me home from the hospital without a name and the hospital kept calling them and saying, wait, you gotta come up with a name for her. And they couldn't see

Paul Thurrott (00:12:48):
My point point wasn't

Leo Laporte (00:12:49):
That it happens. Wasn't

Paul Thurrott (00:12:52):
That it doesn't happen. My point is that when it happens, it's

Leo Laporte (00:12:54):
Insane. It's a big deal. Like,

Paul Thurrott (00:12:56):
Yeah. You know, if, I mean, their friends must have been like, what is wrong with you? You've had nine months to think about this.

Leo Laporte (00:13:03):
What

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:03):
They were like taking votes. What were the names? Like? What are you guys saying? What were

Leo Laporte (00:13:07):
The names that they were considering?

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:09):
Well, so one name I was gonna have was Margaret. That was my dad's mother's name. Nice. But my mom did not like it because she said, I don't want you named after somebody else. I want you to have your own name. Oh. And so then I forgot what else they came up. But, but I ended up being named after my mom's best friend who is from the south. And that's why I have a Southern first name, even though

Leo Laporte (00:13:29):
Mad Jo mad, Jo <laugh> bring me a piece of Paycom pie. Come on, man. Jo, I like Margaret.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:38):
I

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:39):
Margaret's like a traditional Irish.

Leo Laporte (00:13:40):
You could have been Maggie or Meg.

Mary Jo Foley (00:13:42):
My dad hated that. My dad's like, I don't want her to be called Mo or Meg. I don't like that.

Paul Thurrott (00:13:48):
Yeah. We were gonna have a, we were gonna have a third child that was between mark and Kelly. And that child unfortunately was miscarried. And for a long time, I joked that that child's name was Mo pale

Leo Laporte (00:13:58):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:13:59):
And because what I wanted to do was go outside and be like, mark mope

Leo Laporte (00:14:04):
Hard for dinner. I don't say mope. <Laugh> wow. Or Mo bla would be good. Two

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:12):
BL

Leo Laporte (00:14:13):
MOBL are you a pen or boy? <Laugh> 

Mary Jo Foley (00:14:18):
Mark Penn. His favorite guy from

Leo Laporte (00:14:20):
Mark Penn. Sure. We days I, I wanted to name our daughter, Abby, Abigail, cuz I said, well, was a nickname. If she becomes a judge, you wanted to be judge Abby. No, she should be judge Abigail Laport. And Jennifer vetoed it and she said, no, Abby, cuz I don't want any other nicknames to come along. <Laugh> <laugh> so you prepare it ahead of time. You say this is the name and the

Paul Thurrott (00:14:44):
Nickname. I, my name is so terrible. I wanna my yes. Naming is hard names.

Leo Laporte (00:14:48):
Paul's

Paul Thurrott (00:14:48):
Name. Yeah. Naming is hard, but you know what? When you have nine months to do do it, you

Leo Laporte (00:14:52):
Shouldn do it by then. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:14:54):
That's

Leo Laporte (00:14:54):
We wanted to call Abby Clara and my mom said, no, no that's Clara bell. The clown from the howdy duty show. And we said, oh no, right.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:01):
Yikes.

Leo Laporte (00:15:02):
You can't do that one. Sure. That's one mistake people make is they tell people and everybody's got an objection.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:08):
Well, I say I, my son's name is Marcus. It's easy to spell. And my last name is really hard to spell. And then they say, how do you spell it? And I say M a R Q U E

Leo Laporte (00:15:16):
<Laugh>. I knew it. Mark M a R. So I went to college with M a R C Q K. So there you go.

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:23):
Wow.

Leo Laporte (00:15:24):
But at least it's another apostle and of course, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. So you need more of those you need, God knows. Moving right along.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:34):
Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:15:35):
We now it's okay. Are you done? I mean, are you happy? The windows? No,

Paul Thurrott (00:15:39):
I'm not happy. Leo 20, 22.

Leo Laporte (00:15:41):
He's

Mary Jo Foley (00:15:41):
Very unhappy. He's very unhappy.

Leo Laporte (00:15:43):
But I think the windows 11 20, 22 update mm-hmm <affirmative> isn't back it's long.

Paul Thurrott (00:15:49):
Well, so, but look for whatever reason be because Microsoft had first half, second half updates for a few years. Yeah. They moved from, well, they remember like Mary just said they used to have 18 0 3, 18 0 9, 19 0 3 19. Well they never heard,

Leo Laporte (00:16:03):
But that's what this is doing. This is saying no, no there's only one in 20, 22. Yeah. And this is

Paul Thurrott (00:16:08):
No, no, but it's but it's actually not doing that because the version of windows you're gonna upgrade to is still called 22 H two.

Leo Laporte (00:16:14):
Oh no. I see your problem now. Okay. Yep. I see the issue.

Paul Thurrott (00:16:19):
Look, I, I, I don't

Mary Jo Foley (00:16:22):
Know. You know what? I'm gonna call it. I'm gonna call it. No, I'm just gonna call it 2209. I'm

Paul Thurrott (00:16:26):
Just, I already know. I already know in the same in basilic way that the question I asked about the charms was answered that when I go to Microsoft and I say, so what do you call this thing? And they say, Paul, it's just windows 11. Yeah. And then I say, I quit. I quit. I give up it's cuz it's it's really not. It's not, it's not just that everything changed.

Leo Laporte (00:16:46):
They don't want consumers to dwell as we are I on the, on the differences.

Paul Thurrott (00:16:53):
I look, I don't either. That's fine. I just, the, the, look, this is a support issue. File Explorer alone has changed dramatically between the first version of windows 11 and the second, just all by itself. It's going to change dramatically again, whenever they decide to implement tabs, not because of the tabs, but because they're making major changes to the navigation pain. These are things I care about because I work on a book, but you know what, if I was supporting an enterprise or a business of any kind, this would also be a concern because sometimes you go to look as something and it doesn't look the same and you have to be able to tell people why.

Leo Laporte (00:17:29):
Yeah. Or

Paul Thurrott (00:17:29):
When it happened or how or whatever. Yeah. And I it's just logic.

Leo Laporte (00:17:35):
Yeah. Okay. I don't

Paul Thurrott (00:17:35):
Know. I know I'm just standing in front of a giant title wave

Leo Laporte (00:17:38):
The old man yells at clouds. And in fact, yeah, <laugh> the good news is that is in fact the header on today's show notes. So <laugh> go ahead. Yell. Go ahead. Yell all you want.

Paul Thurrott (00:17:50):
I just cry softly to

Leo Laporte (00:17:51):
Myself at Vegas.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:52):
<Laugh> kidding

Leo Laporte (00:17:54):
Me softly with his name.

Mary Jo Foley (00:17:55):
Now there's a reason that's a header. The header today, Leo, which is story two.

Leo Laporte (00:17:59):
Well, I do like the that's the old windows 95 logo. Is it?

Paul Thurrott (00:18:04):
That's right. That's

Leo Laporte (00:18:05):
Right. Yeah. So what's the story

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:08):
Today?

Leo Laporte (00:18:09):
Glory.

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:09):
Yes. Today is the anniversary of the launch of windows 95, 27 years

Leo Laporte (00:18:14):
Ago. Stop me up. <Laugh> you can stop me up. Wow. 20,

Paul Thurrott (00:18:21):
Do you remember the song they originally wanted for the theme song? It was not start me up by the rolling stones. What

Leo Laporte (00:18:26):
Was it? No.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:27):
Did anyone else remember?

Leo Laporte (00:18:28):
We didn't start by Billy Joel.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:31):
<Laugh> no, the end of the world, as we know it by

Leo Laporte (00:18:33):
RM. No, that's bad. Oh, that's not.

Paul Thurrott (00:18:35):
And RM did said no, because they were at the time. We're not solos.

Leo Laporte (00:18:41):
<Laugh> unlike Mick and company

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:43):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:18:45):
27 years ago. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> yeah, that is mindboggling

Mary Jo Foley (00:18:50):
Isn't it? I know it really is. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:18:53):
Wow. That was, that was a very exciting time because it was windows 3, 1, 1 from my point of view was the first windows that's that you would say, yeah, you know what? This is, this is good. This is usable. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and 95 was even better. And it really felt like I remember Steve jobs telling me right. That we we had a 10 year advantage on Microsoft and we let, and we cuz they, for

Paul Thurrott (00:19:21):
So many reason, Steve jobs is such a jackass. It, he, the thing, the thing it is. So Steve jobs that, what he was focused on was the look of the operating system. When in fact windows had surpassed the Mac technically eight years earlier or whatever. I mean like I like it is so him that what he was talking, he, what he was talking about was the windows 95 UI. But actually like you were saying windows 3, 1, 1, or windows for work groups, three, one both had 32 bit disc access, 32 bit Ram access, you know, what were it did in fact have all the technical underpinnings that made windows 95. What it was, what it didn't have was the

Leo Laporte (00:19:58):
Shell update. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:20:00):
Right. But that was already all in place.

Leo Laporte (00:20:01):
I would think. I think even at the time he didn't say they'd caught up, but they were catching up because of course, because the people who fired him had not done enough

Paul Thurrott (00:20:10):
With yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. To me, he would've, he would've done it.

Leo Laporte (00:20:13):
Yeah. He wouldn't done, I would've made

Paul Thurrott (00:20:14):
It better,

Leo Laporte (00:20:15):
But they didn't know what they were

Paul Thurrott (00:20:17):
Doing. Yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:20:18):
Now

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:18):
And this, this spurred a little combo between me and Paul this morning because I saw Brad Silverberg, you know, who was the one running windows, 95 at Microsoft. That's right tweet today that it was the anniversary and somebody said, yeah. And then they almost called this windows four instead of windows 95. And I'm like,

Leo Laporte (00:20:37):
They

Mary Jo Foley (00:20:37):
Must call, oh, that would've been crazy. It was

Paul Thurrott (00:20:39):
So actually briefly. Yeah. So you and I, you and I talked briefly about this today, but it's, I've been thinking about this a lot since then. I went to look for that book and I couldn't find it, but here's the thing. Oh, sorry. And it, the, the previous year I had, I had gotten the windows 90, 95 beta, you know, and then into 95 as well. Yeah. And the, and those were, it was windows four. That was what it was called. It was, it was windows. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. Yep. Huh. Yeah. I think what they windows people, you know, it's funny in, in retrospect, this is not a big deal, but at the time windows four windows 95 was delayed and I think they wanted to make it a bigger deal. In fact, when you think about when they released it in August, it's the worst time to release an offering system. It is

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:16):
For,

Paul Thurrott (00:21:17):
For computers and they, they wanted to make it seem like a bigger thing. And so they went with this more exciting, you know, to them branding, they did the big marketing campaign, they had the song, you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah. I think honestly, windows does 95 might let me think about, yeah. Might have been the last time Microsoft had really good marketing, frankly. <Laugh> around the pub, you know? No, really. I mean, they really generated a lot of legitimate excitement with normal people who didn't care about this kind of stuff. Mm-Hmm and triggered a wave of PC buying the likes of which had ever been seen before. Right.

Mary Jo Foley (00:21:54):
That's true. Do you remember? I, I remember because I covered this and I was there at the launch, but they, there were all these TV crews, like regular TV crews, not tech specialists or anything. Right. And they were going to the stores at midnight to watch people line up, to buy copies. And I remember them on the, on the, on the Seattle local news, going up to somebody on the line and saying, what are you in line for? And the person's like, I don't know. There were just so many people in line I just got in line. I don't know what this

Paul Thurrott (00:22:19):
That's awesome. That's awesome. Right. <Laugh> so you won't be surprised to discover. I didn't go to that because I was working on a book.

Mary Jo Foley (00:22:26):
Yes. I'm not surprised, but

Paul Thurrott (00:22:27):
The, the, the, the event that I remember light. So when windows, N T 4.0, shipped. Yeah. A year later in, at Reed, you know, when I, it was in stores, I, I was at a party that my wife's boss was having in Phoenix and I had to, I had to, I wanted to leave to go buy, to go to the store to buy it. Yeah. And somebody threw me in the pool, so I was just like sopping wet from head to toe. Oh. So I went to egghead or software, et cetera. I don't remember. It was one of those type of stores. Yeah. And I walked into the store and I, I SQUI every foot step I took was like squish, SQUI, qui all the way to the back. I grabbed empty off the shelf. I walked up to the front squish, SQUI, qui squish. And I remember the guy, the guy looked up for behind the register at the trail of water behind me. And he goes, he's like, are you all right? I'm like, yeah. Why <laugh> <laugh> yeah. Like take my money, please. I'm gotta get outta anyhow. Yeah. That was, those were the days. Those were the days

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:29):
They were, they were

Leo Laporte (00:23:30):
Well happy birthday. Yeah. In those 95,

Mary Jo Foley (00:23:34):
It just makes me feel so old. Like thinking it's hard to believe was 27 years ago. <Laugh> I mean,

Leo Laporte (00:23:40):
I pulled my you know Brian Carnahan, who, who wrote C and Unix and wrote a,

Paul Thurrott (00:23:48):
A,

Leo Laporte (00:23:48):
A, well, and he's in the news because he's 80 years old and he

Paul Thurrott (00:23:51):
That's. Right. And he fixed

Leo Laporte (00:23:52):
AK. He fixed a, he added Unica AK, so that's cool. But then that made me think, oh, I have the have his, I have the book Carnahan and Richie's the C programming language and went to get it. Sure. Looked inside August 12th, 1982 was when I bought it. Sure, sure. 40 years. Years ago. Yep. That made me feel very old. Very old Carnahan was only 40 when I bought that book. It's amazing. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (00:24:18):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:24:19):
So, you know what, we're just we're, we're this years, senior statesmen of technology now,

Paul Thurrott (00:24:26):
I just, okay. So since you just told the story, I mentioned earlier, I pulled out the first edition of pet salt's programming, windows classic, which published in yep. 1988, the verse version covered windows 2.0 wow. And windows 3 86. And he, it, it just, because it just happened to say in the beginning of, you know, it says the author's name and it says 19, whatever the birthdate is. And I looked at it and I said, Charles petal was 35 years old when he wrote this

Leo Laporte (00:24:51):
Book. Isn't that amazing. 35

Paul Thurrott (00:24:54):
Years old. I literally just had this,

Leo Laporte (00:24:55):
Just had same reaction. I did like, yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> holy cow. Yeah. You know, Khan's 80. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:03):
I love that. He is still actively, it's still ready. Cut actively, but he's still, he he's been sitting on this for a long time and he said, I just gotta try to fix this. It's really bothering me that we don't, you know, support Unica.

Leo Laporte (00:25:13):
And then he's also working now on supporting CVS CSV files. Yeah. But it's the funniest thing I thought was he, he sent the update in an email said, cuz I know you've taught me GI, but I just can't get my head around at so point <laugh> here's the, here's the code? Could

Paul Thurrott (00:25:28):
You commit? Well, it's not wrong there.

Leo Laporte (00:25:30):
It's not wrong. Could you commit that to the GI repository

Paul Thurrott (00:25:33):
Get is not easy.

Leo Laporte (00:25:34):
<Laugh> anyway. A wonderful, wonderful story. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:25:38):
That's funny.

Leo Laporte (00:25:39):
Yeah. So you kids, you know, they're sitting there with your iPhones and your pads, your tablets, you know, there was a day when computing was hard <laugh> oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:25:53):
When computing was interactive, you know, you, there weren't a lot of things going on. You gotta write your own programs in many

Leo Laporte (00:25:58):
Cases or yeah. Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:00):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:26:02):
Is there anything more up to date <laugh> to talk about

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:05):
Anything more current, do you

Leo Laporte (00:26:07):
Think more, a little more, yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:08):
There are a few builds. Oh, okay. Few new builds. Okay. Yeah. So today two two sets of builds windows 11 for the dev channel. And two beta channel builds because we're still doing two for some reason. Mostly fixes in both. There's a new touch keyboard command that is being tested in windows 11. And there's one other feature that's associated with this bill, but I'm saving that for the next section because I'm lining this up for the throt rant as we call them th rant of the century. I think that's gonna come in our next section. 

Leo Laporte (00:26:46):
Wow. Okay. <Laugh> the Theran of the century

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:50):
And

Leo Laporte (00:26:51):
I'll throttle

Paul Thurrott (00:26:52):
All of you

Leo Laporte (00:26:53):
<Laugh> <laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:26:54):
Yesterday release preview got a bill. Okay. So I've kind of lost the thread on the release preview at this point. So this, this build only went to people who are running windows 1122 H two already because in release preview also have some people running windows 10 builds. Right. okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:27:11):
Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:12):
Yeah. 

Paul Thurrott (00:27:13):
Probably most of mine, windows 11, but yes.

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:15):
Yeah. I would think, I would think so. There, there was some new history capabilities in there where it's tracking your history of usage of things like camera and such. That was in that build.

Leo Laporte (00:27:29):
Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:27:29):
I didn't mean to see that.

Leo Laporte (00:27:30):
I'm sorry. Yeah. I think

Mary Jo Foley (00:27:31):
I might have, I think I put the wrong link in, in for today's there's so many of these things now <laugh> like

Paul Thurrott (00:27:38):
This is unrelated to anything, but I've actually had a really hard time pacing URLs into notions. Yeah, me

Leo Laporte (00:27:45):
Too, for

Paul Thurrott (00:27:45):
The last few weeks. I don't know why I'll come back later and they're not there and I can't explain why that is. Yeah. Yep. So what you're talking about is I think, yeah. Usage history for various resources and settings mm-hmm <affirmative> improves storage, replication. Most of this is really it's just, you know, against Microsoft defender. Yeah. Yeah. But the usage history for resources in settings is interesting. I

Leo Laporte (00:28:13):
Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:28:13):
<Affirmative>, I don't know. I assume it's a privacy concern and a data, you know, maybe you can go in and say, I wanna, you know, kill this uses history, that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, I'm guessing, but I haven't looked at it yet. Cause I don't, I I'm on the beta channel or I have the beta channel build, so I'm not getting these kind of updates. So I don't really see this stuff. So I'm not really sure

Leo Laporte (00:28:34):
What that even looks like. Yeah. Yeah. All

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:37):
Right. But at this point, they're the people getting bills on the release preview channel for windows 11. They're they're getting bills for something that's beyond the 22 H two update. Right? Like these features that they're previewing. Now

Leo Laporte (00:28:50):
Aren't gonna

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:51):
Be in

Leo Laporte (00:28:52):
The

Paul Thurrott (00:28:52):
<Laugh>. This would require someone to have communicated something about who's saying what and when, so I, I actually don't know,

Mary Jo Foley (00:28:59):
But we don't really know. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:29:00):
Mm-Hmm yeah. Okay.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:03):
That's a good question.

Leo Laporte (00:29:05):
Yeah. Is this the Theran of the century now?

Mary Jo Foley (00:29:09):
No, not yet. Not

Leo Laporte (00:29:10):
Yet. Okay. Okay. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:29:12):
It's

Leo Laporte (00:29:12):
Coming up.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:13):
No, this is just another like silent acceptance of stupid <laugh> just

Leo Laporte (00:29:19):
Edge gets a sidebar.

Paul Thurrott (00:29:23):
I, it is interesting to watch people in the tech industry kind of come around to the notion that edge is just too bloated now. Yeah. although I think it was, I dunno if it was Todd Bishop, I think it might have been Todd who just adopted edge. And I was like, like, it was,

Leo Laporte (00:29:40):
I really am love an edge now I'm like,

Paul Thurrott (00:29:42):
Wow, timely adoption of this product. <Laugh> you know, edge started out as this beautiful thing that was Chrome with everything stripped away that you didn't need, especially all the Google stuff. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> obviously you had to, you know, replace the Microsoft account stuff. Fine, fine. You know, this, the, this set of functionality that we have from classic edge, that much of which is still not available. People complained or gave feedback and I'm like, okay, yeah, we'll put some of that back in. And then I wanna say sometime around, I dunno if it was last year, maybe earlier, they just started piling the features on this thing. Yeah. Some guy on TWiTtter said to me, he goes, Hey, I got this prompt in edge to follow a creator on YouTube. Have you ever seen this? And I looked it up. I've never seen it. And it does pop up. And it's part, it's part of edge. It's not a YouTube feature. It's a, it's a way to follow someone on YouTube within edge

Leo Laporte (00:30:37):
Tiktok, YouTube. I think I have it. Wait a minute. Is that what this is? This thing here is this

Paul Thurrott (00:30:43):
Side. No, that's the sidebar. Yeah, that

Leo Laporte (00:30:45):
The sidebar, not the YouTube. Oh, I just put it away. Oh,

Paul Thurrott (00:30:47):
Actually. So, alright so well, do you know of a really popular YouTube channel? Like if you went to

Leo Laporte (00:30:52):
Yeah, sure. To

Paul Thurrott (00:30:54):
Go to YouTube

Leo Laporte (00:30:56):
Tip tips, go to salt tank. Oh yeah. That's the YouTube channel. What am I doing here?

Paul Thurrott (00:31:01):
You gotta go to, it has to have a lot of followers. Okay.

Leo Laporte (00:31:03):
So

Paul Thurrott (00:31:04):
What you should see. Yeah. There you go. 

Leo Laporte (00:31:07):
Let me turn off the sound. Hold God. What's going on. Help me, help

Paul Thurrott (00:31:11):
Me pops up in the address in the right of the address bar. I, I, I didn't,

Leo Laporte (00:31:14):
I closed the unfortunately this is my mistake. I, I put this. Yeah, right

Paul Thurrott (00:31:19):
There. There it's it's there where it, it, it, it scrolled out like re look at the right of the address bar and just refresh the page.

Leo Laporte (00:31:27):
Look at the right of the address bar and refresh the page. There'll be something, oh yeah. Follow Linus type tips. There you go. It

Paul Thurrott (00:31:35):
Just went away. So that is, but I can

Leo Laporte (00:31:36):
It's. Oh, but it's still a button there. I've just now followed. And I

Paul Thurrott (00:31:40):
Can't unplug this thing needs.

Leo Laporte (00:31:42):
Oh, there it is.

Paul Thurrott (00:31:43):
But, you know, because what this thing needs is more buttons.

Leo Laporte (00:31:47):
Yeah. Look at this. Look at this app available by the is all YouTube. This page follow creator. Add this page to favorites. And that's all

Paul Thurrott (00:31:58):
Minimize everything on minimize windows key plus D

Leo Laporte (00:32:01):
Okay. Windows keep plus D right,

Paul Thurrott (00:32:03):
Right. Click the desktop.

Leo Laporte (00:32:04):
Okay. Right. Click the desktop.

Paul Thurrott (00:32:06):
Silently regard the little string of icon. Actually. You don't see any cuz you don't sorry. You didn't, you don't have anything in the,

Leo Laporte (00:32:13):
What would be here in your

Paul Thurrott (00:32:15):
No, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry. Sorry. If you, what you have to do is you have to have something in the clipboard or have something selected. What happens is you get this little row of icons that are 100% non knowable. <Laugh> right. If you, when you think, think about like how this type of system's supposed to work, like you go to an airport, you don't speak the language, but you can still get around because all the little cliffs and hieroglyphics and stuff they use, you know, just kind of universally makes sense, like an open door or an exit sign or whatever. It's an arrow, you know? But when you do stuff in windows, like I'll just, yeah. So it's like cut, copy, paste, share, and delete, like delete, make some sense. It's a trash can, but yeah, like the, the Renee icon or the, she, I don't think any normal human being would have any idea what those things mean. And you, they save space by not putting them in the menu. Right. So they're not text, right. They're just little, not emoji, you know, emojis, but little icons. And this is what windows is now. And if you think, if you go back, sorry, Leah. But if you go back to edge, you'll see that happening in the address bar area, there, bunch of little ind discernible icons, you know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and they're all you know, you can Mo over them and find out what they are. Right. But what if you're using touch

Leo Laporte (00:33:32):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:33:33):
Right. You like, how, how would you,

Leo Laporte (00:33:34):
Oh, you have to touch 'em and then look

Paul Thurrott (00:33:36):
At, look at all there. Just, just in that area, this like what? Eight, 10 buttons there. Yeah. What is all that stuff? Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:42):
It's crazy.

Mary Jo Foley (00:33:43):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:33:44):
Well these are, these are things I've added. So that doesn't count. How do I get the sidebar to show up again though? I've lost it. Oh, look, this menu's gotten big. Holy cow, cow, Microsoft shows you sidebar control, shift slack, and then I can expand it if I want.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:03):
Oops. So this that's, there is actually, there's a huge innovation in the sidebar that I think we should all silently celebrate. Yes. Which is there's a calculator in

Leo Laporte (00:34:11):
There. Oh, hallelujah.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:13):
I can add. So finally, windows has a calculator.

Leo Laporte (00:34:15):
I can add tools, games, office. Oh, this is it's about time. I needed a calculator when I'm over at I don't know what where's where's two.

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:27):
I know it's not in there. That should be is notepad. Look

Leo Laporte (00:34:30):
At that.

Paul Thurrott (00:34:31):
Oh, it will be Mary

Leo Laporte (00:34:32):
Jo. Oh yeah. If you had notepad, you wouldn't have to ever leave edge. Here's a,

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:37):
Dictionary's the whole thing they're trying to think. Well, look at the, you don't have to switch, right?

Leo Laporte (00:34:39):
Here's here's a dictionary. Here's a translator. Here's a unit converter. It's like, you can, let's do the internet speed test. It's got a little speedometer. That's cool. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:34:55):
So I, so I use last pass, right? With edge. And because last passes on an edge, none, none of this bloatware automatically shows up with my edge. Oh, interesting. Browser it. And I always look for, I'm like, where's the edge bar. And I go to the setting and says, because you have last pass enable you will, you can't have edge bar turn on. And I'm like, oh good. That's a good reason to use last pass. Right.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:19):
I used the

Leo Laporte (00:35:20):
Really <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:35:21):
I use the brave web browser. It has the same effect. I don't see any in that crap. Yeah. <Laugh> yeah. You know? Yeah. So

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:28):
I don't know. It's kind of handy. I'm like, oh, this is nice. A little added benefit of last pass. <Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:35:34):
It bugs me because I have not written this fully yet, but the edge chapter of the book is basically how to turn things off.

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:42):
Yeah. You know, that's good. That's a good chapter.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:44):
Just regard this thing, realize you don't need it and then get rid of it. You know? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I wish it was more than that, you know? I wish it was better than that.

Mary Jo Foley (00:35:54):
No, that's a that's handy. I would get your book just for that chapter.

Paul Thurrott (00:35:59):
<Laugh> okay. All right. Well, I would, yes. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:03):
<Laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:36:05):
So there it is. This came out. Enjoy it.

Leo Laporte (00:36:08):
<Laugh> finally, finally

Paul Thurrott (00:36:12):
Remember when

Leo Laporte (00:36:12):
It's starting to look like used to be Baldy is what it's starting to look like with all the

Paul Thurrott (00:36:15):
Exactly. Yeah. Edge used to be about using fewer re resources than Chrome. That was, they used to have those contests. Remember they would do speed tests

Leo Laporte (00:36:23):
And right. Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:36:24):
<Affirmative> and you don't really hear a lot about that anymore. <Laugh> yeah, but it doesn't compare to favorably these days.

Leo Laporte (00:36:31):
Yeah. Huh? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I think the sidebar's an interesting feature.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:37):
I think some people are gonna want it. I do think so.

Leo Laporte (00:36:39):
Yeah. I mean,

Paul Thurrott (00:36:41):
I okay. <Laugh> yeah. I, no, I'm sorry. I, I, I actually agree with you, but again, this is like that thing we discovered in the signature trials where some people like crap bar, you know, I mean, I think,

Leo Laporte (00:36:54):
Look, I can get a sidebar about the Scarlet MCCA.

Paul Thurrott (00:36:58):
Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:36:58):
Huh. I just feel like you can pin because you can pin all your things that you use commonly on your task bar. Like why do you also need it an edge?

Paul Thurrott (00:37:07):
Right. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:37:08):
All

Paul Thurrott (00:37:08):
Edge becomes a second. This, it becomes a second point of UI, a second point of task switching, right? Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:15):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:15):
Right. I bet most of their, or many people spend most of their time in a browser anyway. Right. But that's why they added right. Tab or browser tabs to the alt tab experience.

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:26):
Right. Collections. Yeah. Also collections. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:37:31):
So you can do everything in here. It is. It's very much like Vivaldi.

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:34):
I live in the browser, like I'd say 90% of my day is in the browser, right? Yeah. 

Leo Laporte (00:37:39):
I think so. Well now you can play Majong and get your work done.

Mary Jo Foley (00:37:44):
Yeah. Or not. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (00:37:46):
Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (00:37:46):
<Affirmative> yeah. Remember? Okay. Geez, boy,

Leo Laporte (00:37:50):
Boy.

Paul Thurrott (00:37:53):
That's the same UI as the Majong game for windows 10 slash 11.

Leo Laporte (00:37:57):
It looks like XP, to be honest. No, but

Paul Thurrott (00:38:00):
I mean, it's the same. It's the same, but it's the same. Like it's yeah, almost certainly that thing as a web app.

Leo Laporte (00:38:05):
Oh, this is a web app for sure. I don't have this on.

Paul Thurrott (00:38:07):
No, but I mean the, like, if you were to download this app from the store, this is what it looks like. It's I think it's identical.

Leo Laporte (00:38:13):
Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> boom. Look how look how good I am at Majong

Paul Thurrott (00:38:19):
Boom. Hey, remember when you went to the web browser, cuz you needed something for work. What do you remember that?

Leo Laporte (00:38:23):
What? Remember? Oh yeah. I'm writing my novel right now. <Laugh> what?

Paul Thurrott (00:38:28):
Right. Let me just research this. Ooh. Maja.

Leo Laporte (00:38:31):
<Laugh> the ver I, I know so many writers who say the very first thing I do is uninstall. Solitaire, sweep, mind, sweeper, all of that stuff. <Laugh> so I'm not tempted, but now don't worry it. You don't have to install it. It's in your sidebar, your browser. Yep. Just boy, what a world? What a world? Let me let's this would be, if you don't mind a little chance to take a stock of the world around us and think about what it is that you need in life to keep your business secure. How about that? How about collide our sponsor for this segment of windows weekly? The challenge with security device security really has always been, its it's hard to scale it, right? The bigger you are, the more edge cases you introduce and the easier it is for significant issues to escape your notice.

Leo Laporte (00:39:25):
And don't even mention B Y O D and then there was remote work, right? And the challenge got exponentially harder, whether you're a fast growing startup that needs to graduate from managing device, inventory and Google sheets or an enterprise trying to speed up service desk issues. You need visibility into your fleet of devices in order to meet security goals and keep everything running smoothly. But there's a little problem in a lot of businesses. Your design team uses max, your accountings on windows, the developers, they like Linux. So you get collide. K O L I D E an end point security solution that gives it teams, a single dashboard for all devices, regardless of their operating systems. Collide can answer questions, MDMs can't questions. Like do you have production data being stored on devices? Do you, do you know, are all your developers SSH keys encrypted?

Leo Laporte (00:40:23):
Or are they just sitting there in the clear on a shared drive and a host of other data points that you'd have to write a custom shell script to learn about? Or maybe take a walk down the hall and ask and they don't know, think about it. If a Linux vulnerability is exposed tomorrow, how will you figure out how many machines in your enterprise are at risk file a ticket with a team that manages your MDM and then wait for days to get report back? No. Oh, I know let's send a mass email and hope the Linux users open it. Mm-Hmm with collide real time access to your fleet's data. And instead of installing intrusive agents or locking down devices, Kaly takes a user focused approach that communicates security recommendations to your teams directly on slack. You can answer every question you have about your fleet without intruding on your workforce.

Leo Laporte (00:41:15):
And I can tell you your workforce appreciates it. Visit K O L I D e.com/ww to find out how, if you follow that link, they're gonna hook you up with a goody bag, including a t-shirt. This is one of several models I've got my collide. T-Shirt just for activating a free trial. Look at that. This one, I like honest.security collide. Isn't that cool. It's hurting me cuz I've been keeping them here instead of wearing 'em to the gym where I can show off my security focus. K O L I D e.com/ww for a free trial and your goody bag, including a t-shirt or for you Mary Jo, a beer coaster <laugh> or two <laugh> collide.com/dub dub. We appreciate the collides support. I think you'll appreciate their product and, and you'll help us a lot if you go to that special address. So they know you saw it here, collide.com/ww. Now I could take those t-shirts home. Thank you. Collide. All right. Back to work you two enough enough. I like

Paul Thurrott (00:42:28):
The Pinocchio design on the shirt, by the way.

Leo Laporte (00:42:30):
Is that? Oh it's oh, I didn't. I thought it was little birds flying. I didn't even get it. It is. It's a little Pinocchios honest. I get it now. Honest security and there's one without a long those that's the honest one. Yeah. I didn't even get that. <Laugh> and I take great pride in deciphering geek t-shirts

Paul Thurrott (00:42:49):
So I, I thought of it as a video game at first, but then I said,

Leo Laporte (00:42:53):
Hmm. Yeah, I thought it was birds or a cloud. Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:42:57):
Yeah,

Leo Laporte (00:42:57):
Yeah. I should have paid attention. All right. Back to the show we go and I think it's time to talk office three. I'm sorry, Microsoft. See, even I have forgotten Microsoft 3, 6, 5, something to say about that kids.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:18):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:43:19):
Yeah. <Laugh> have you lost interest, Paul?

Mary Jo Foley (00:43:22):
I think, I think based on the headline he put on his post about this. He, he does have something to, is

Leo Laporte (00:43:28):
It, is it, could it be threat time? It could be outlook mobile now shows ads to all free users. Woo. Hey, if you're a free user, you can't expect not to see ads.

Paul Thurrott (00:43:41):
I okay. A hundred percent. I, I, I hear you. I as you might expect, I have a, an account that I use for the book that's clean. The idea is I have to take screenshots. If you watch hands on windows, you'll see that account there. It's it's not customized in any way because I'm trying to show what the thing really looks like. And <laugh> this was last week sometime I brought up outlook.com and yeah, you're right. It has ads, you know, there's like the column out and the side, like

Leo Laporte (00:44:11):
Google, like Gmail. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:13):
Yeah. And at the top there was an email that said something about it was like national. No, no, no, no. It was the, it was something to do with the Lehigh valley, which is where I live. Yeah. And so I cl and I was like, wait a minute, this is a secondary account. I've never connected it to anything. How on earth does it know? I think it was like a concert venue or someplace I had been. So I clicked on it and it loaded a website and I'm like, what? Wait what? So I went back and I looked at it and it's not a, it's not an email. It's an ad that looks like an email.

Leo Laporte (00:44:42):
Oh, they click

Paul Thurrott (00:44:43):
The, the top

Leo Laporte (00:44:44):
Email. No

Paul Thurrott (00:44:45):
Is an ad. No. So I refreshed it. And the second time I came up, it was for national geographic. And then I refreshed it again and it came up, but

Leo Laporte (00:44:52):
It looks like an email.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:53):
It looks like an email. Okay. And I'm sorry,

Leo Laporte (00:44:55):
I ran away. Cause that's really, that's, that's evil, evil. That's evil.

Paul Thurrott (00:44:59):
But my what? So go ahead, Mary. I'm sorry.

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:03):
Yeah. Yahoo does this right? I have a spam account. I a Yahoo account. And we

Paul Thurrott (00:45:08):
Gonna Yahoo up as the bar.

Leo Laporte (00:45:10):
Yeah. No. Who says it's okay.

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:12):
No, no. I was gonna say every time I see that ad on the top line, I, I get tricked every single time.

Leo Laporte (00:45:18):
I think it's an email. That's the whole point, right? No,

Paul Thurrott (00:45:21):
No. That's right. That's how ware acts. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:23):
Okay. No, I'm not saying when you

Paul Thurrott (00:45:25):
Impersonate

Mary Jo Foley (00:45:26):
Acceptable, <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (00:45:27):
That that's, that's unacceptable. But see this, this, what this triggered was this, it's not just this, right? So this is Microsoft has started showing more ad. The story is they've, they're showing more ads. They've been showing ads in Alec mobile for, I dunno, two years, but now they're showing more ads. They're showing this insidious kind of ad, which I think is awful. But there's also these other stories out in the world, right? We know that apple is rumored by mark Irman. So apple is going to be putting ads inside of maps, apple, the, the, the privacy company, the company that shut down third party ads on their own system. You know, like this company has a big ad play coming. I'm gonna be really interested to see how they handle that because you know, they market themselves in a certain way. I'm really curious about this, but this triggers like kind of a broader thought on my part and a conversation, possibly a rant about advertising.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:20):
And you have some service, right? The, the world has changed from you, buy a movie, bring it home and you watch it on your TV to you. Well, actually you do buy it, but you buy it digitally. That's not a good example, but you subscribe to Netflix and you watch movies that way, or you subscribe to whatever the service is and you pay for that. And you, and in my case, you pay and you pay and you pay and you pay because I have multiple people. I want the highest quality display, cuz I have 4k displays. My children don't live in the same state as me. So I pay for the version. That's a little more expensive, you know, for that, I'm paying like 20 bucks a month for this service. Soon, I'm gonna pay more because they're trying to reign in the interstate thing.

Paul Thurrott (00:46:55):
But Netflix is trying to find more revenue. So one, you know, they're doing different things. They have games. Now they have whatever. But one of the things they're looking at and are going to do is add supported versions of the service, right? So instead of paying, you'll see ads and I, I don't want that, but I appreciate that. That's a choice and that's fine. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but there's like this insidious third choice, which I think we're gonna start seeing in these services, whether it's Spotify or Netflix or whatever it is. And it's the, it's the system that newspapers have been using forever, which is that, that you pay for the product and you see ads and I'm, I am, I'm tired of it. I I'm tired of paying an astronomical amount of money to, in this case, the New York times, plus wire cutter and seeing animated ads that I cannot turn off between paragraphs of texts while I'm trying to read a story, I don't understand this.

Paul Thurrott (00:47:49):
Like I don't understand it. And you know that it's only a matter of time before Spotify, like I said, Netflix, whatever, we'll have this version where you pay nothing and see lots of ads. You pay a little and see some ads or you pay a lot and you see no ads, you know, you know, this is coming. Yeah. And the thing that actually tipped this off for me, wasn't Microsoft. It wasn't apple. It wasn't the New York times. It was just my day to day reading. I, I read like a, I read many things, but one of the things I read is the, is Google news and Google news. The way it works is you have a feed it's technology stories. And when you click on an article, it loads the article inside the app in a browser. But it's the site that produced the content.

Paul Thurrott (00:48:30):
It's not like a reader view without ads. It's it's the site. And I don't know if anyone has been on the web lately, but it is a cesspool of animated, nons, stoppable video ads. It is, it's unbelievable. It's the type of stuff where you have to click here to continue or you scroll over and ad that gets in the way to gets to see the, that kind of thing. I've saw something the other day I have never seen before in my life. And it is horrific, which is the same autoplay nons stoppable video ad between every single paragraph in a story. And I'm not talking big thick tol paragraphs, I'm talking one or two tiny sentences, poor grammar and spelling. And then two video ads on screen, cuz I'm reading this tiny strip of text and they're both animating away and I've I've had it. I've had it. Yeah. I am going to actively do everything I can to block ads from entering any of my devices from that. I'm gonna get a pile I'm gonna do on device, whatever it is I'm gonna I'm I can't stand it. I'm happy to pay to not see this crap. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but you can't <laugh> there's no, there's no option.

Leo Laporte (00:49:39):
Next DNS, go to next DNS dot mm-hmm <affirmative> com or.io. Let me look it up. Okay. It's a pie hole in the sky hole. Next dns.io. You put it on your router. I do it on my, well, I had to turn it off. So I did it on my router so that everything in the house you not only have ad blocking it's protects you against security issues. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> it speeds up DNS. It has supervised internet for kids. You don't need that anymore. Maybe

Paul Thurrott (00:50:07):
I do. Maybe that's what I need from me. No

Leo Laporte (00:50:09):
More adult content for you. Paul, but I had to turn it off because Lisa said I can't see ads. I said

Paul Thurrott (00:50:17):
Right. Oh, you're welcome. Right.

Leo Laporte (00:50:20):
But see,

Paul Thurrott (00:50:21):
Did you notice everything was faster?

Leo Laporte (00:50:23):
Every, yeah. Those ad sales for our network. And so she, she kind of, yeah, it, it offends her the idea that we might filter out ads, but mm-hmm <affirmative> wow. 

Paul Thurrott (00:50:32):
I don't have that issue at my house, so yeah.

Leo Laporte (00:50:35):
<Laugh> I'm ad supported

Paul Thurrott (00:50:36):
Stories. I can't take it. I just, I can't take it. And I, listen, I, I have a website that shows terrible ads. We have to not because we're terrible people. It's the only way it makes sense financially. Yeah. All of this, well, that's my,

Leo Laporte (00:50:49):
That's my, my, my, my guilt about all this is mm-hmm <affirmative> I also don't want a free ride on, on websites, but I pay for the New York times, the Atlantic vanity fair mm-hmm <affirmative> wired Bloomberg, the Washington post. I pay for all of those. And as you point out, doesn't

Paul Thurrott (00:51:05):
Slide, I pay for almost every single one of those things he just said. Yeah. And I, I, the Washington post wired, I don't remember what else he said, but I paid for those and I'm I've had it. I've just, I've had it. It it's I, I, I pay enough for the New York times. I, I, I, in fact, I pay too much, you know, the justification for paying and having ads back in the 1970s was there was this entire system of distributing the paper using child labor, by the way. But literal paper was being moved around the world. So you could read the stories. It was expensive. These guys not only have no overhead today, they don't even have an editorial process anymore. They don't even, what, what is it? What are you paying for? There's nothing. You're not paying for anything. So why am I paying so much? So you do no work. And I see ads. I don't understand it. It doesn't make any sense. I've I'm done. So

Mary Jo Foley (00:51:57):
You're saying I'm doing this, you're saying you're seeing these ads and the apps, right? Not the sites. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> right.

Paul Thurrott (00:52:02):
Not the, yeah. I use apps, right? So it's a Mo yeah. So in, in my case, I read on an iPad. So, and this is one of the tricks. Like if you're if you just use a computer and you're using a web browser, you could use a browser, like brave, you could use various extensions and you could block these things for sure. Yep. I don't, I'm using an app, a mobile app on a platform like iOS or iPads. You, you see this in your phone, you would see it on an Android device, you know, whatever mm-hmm <affirmative> I, by the way, you see ads on TVs. If you have a Samsung smart TV, you get Samsung promotions. Oh yeah. If you have Roku TV, there's ads, the main interface.

Leo Laporte (00:52:37):
Oh yeah. Yep. Oh yeah, yeah,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:39):
No, I'm, I'm done. It's outta control. I can't, I'm done. It's totally

Leo Laporte (00:52:41):
Outta control. I was talking to, to doc circles about this just before the show, cuz his, you know, he wrote the Clete train manifesto and his he's always been advocating for consumers and telling businesses. It's good for you. Yep. To pay attention to what your consumers, what you're well,

Paul Thurrott (00:52:57):
Customers are saying crazy. Ideally, are you

Leo Laporte (00:53:00):
Sure about, but it's just gotten worse and worse and you know, he observed the same thing. He's still on a crusade at 75, he's still pushing hard for it. But I just told him, I said, it's late stage capitalism. This is the world of crap.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:14):
This is to follow the Roman empire is what this is. This feels

Leo Laporte (00:53:17):
That way.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:17):
Sometimes companies are harming themselves by offering terrible experiences to the own users. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. No, it's

Leo Laporte (00:53:26):
Tragic. The blue train is 22 years old. Yeah. He wrote it, you know, two decades ago saying, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> this, the listen to your customers have a conversation with your customers. Don't trick. That's a dark pattern that outlook using to trick you.

Paul Thurrott (00:53:41):
It's not it's it's, it's not like I said, it's not these aren't bad people being bad necessarily. I, in the early two thousands Google a sense or whatever kind of came into being. And there was this golden period of a few years where you could make a lot of money just displaying ads on a webpage and they were not obnoxious. And Google lowered the terms, lowered the terms, lowered the, you know, it got awful over time. And it's very, it's, I'll just say it's impossible for any business to, to survive just serving ads, unless you are specifically one of those listical spam sites where you, you can't believe what this celebrity looks like today, please click through the hundred and 27 photos. None of which, by the way, are that celebrity? Exactly. That kind of thing like that, like that's the world we live in and it's awful and I'm tired of supporting it. And I, I, I wish I wasn't part of it. Well,

Leo Laporte (00:54:32):
You should get, I'm gonna try to get Cory doctor O on. You should get his new book. How to destroy surveillance capitalism. <Laugh> wow. Geez.

Paul Thurrott (00:54:40):
That's gotten rather aggressive.

Leo Laporte (00:54:43):
Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (00:54:43):
No. So my, my biggest problem with this is, okay. I agree with the premise. If okay. Microsoft could say, you ha you get served as if you don't have a subscription, but I feel like there's another factor at play here that I hate even more than that, which is there's a, there's a focused inbox angle to this

Paul Thurrott (00:55:02):
<Laugh> yes. I'm sorry. Right. This is actually sorry for, to interrupt. This is gonna be Mary Jo's rant.

Leo Laporte (00:55:07):
Okay,

Paul Thurrott (00:55:07):
Good. Cause you thought ran. I thought I kind of rained it in there, but let's see how this goes. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:11):
No. So focus in to me is the spawn of the devil. Okay. That's that's

Leo Laporte (00:55:16):
My story. Love focused inbox.

Mary Jo Foley (00:55:18):
We're just start. No, it's terrible. Okay. It doesn't work. Okay. Okay. I know I'm gonna, every person who loves it, I'm gonna hear from every person who loves it because for some people it works. There's a focus inbox. As a feature that Microsoft says uses AI to sort mail. That's important to you versus mail that is not important to you or maybe spam every time I've used it. All my important mail goes into the spam and all my unimportant mail goes into the other one. It just doesn't work for me. I don't know why it doesn't. So if you are someone who's using focused inbox in outlook, the way this has worked up till now is all these ads that are very misleading and ones that even look like emails are going into your other folder and staying out of your main folder. I think the reason Microsoft is turning up the ads is because they want more people to use focused inbox. I really do. I think this is

Paul Thurrott (00:56:11):
Part of wait, wait, wait, let, we gotta price this one for a second. Hold on, hold on. I'm trying to understand if that makes sense. <Laugh> so,

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:20):
So

Paul Thurrott (00:56:20):
If you have focused inbox on, will you not see ads?

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:24):
Yes. That's what they're saying. They're saying, oh, the ads will be in your other folder and you're, you won't see ads in your main folder,

Paul Thurrott (00:56:33):
But how could they be in my other folder? Those are not emails <laugh> so I, okay. Wow. But

Mary Jo Foley (00:56:40):
I, I really wonder, and I just threw this out there on TWiTtter yesterday and I have like 30 or 40 likes. So I think I'm not the only one who thinks this might be part of why they're doing this. Maybe it's not just to get subscribers. <Laugh> maybe it's also to try to force more people to, to use focused inbox because they really want you to use this.

Paul Thurrott (00:57:01):
There has been an escalation in Microsoft ads just this past year, even this past six months. I think the like of which I, I don't think we've ever seen. Right. We've known that Microsoft has wanted to be part of this business. Remember when Google bought double click, whatever number years ago. Yeah. Microsoft went to plan B, which was a company, nowhere, no one ever heard of a quantum

Mary Jo Foley (00:57:25):
Think it was

Paul Thurrott (00:57:27):
Aqua, which they ended up writing down or off or whatever they did. It was a complete waste of time and money. Yeah. But you know, we've questioned over the years. Why do they keep bang around? Why do they keep MSN around? Why do they do these things? Well, because even if they're like a distant number two, it's still a lot of money and they're, it is not even a, they're not even a distant number five, but whatever they're. Yeah. But they're certainly trying, not for lack of effort. Yeah. I mean the, the systems in windows 11 that force you to use their browser and their online services are unbelievable and are, you know, very real, but you can only put that in front of so many people, millions, maybe tens of millions the number of people that would see something on a mobile device, potentially hundreds of millions, right?

Paul Thurrott (00:58:13):
Yeah. More, I don't know, but you know, I'll look mobile, whatever the user base is. It's probably tens to hundreds of millions, any given day that many people seeing that many ads is gonna have an impact and it's gonna be a moment of confusion. Like it was for me when I click on something and go to a webpage and don't see an email open, I see like a webpage open in a new browser or a new tab rather. And I'm confused by that. But then you're okay. But so why would they <laugh>, I'm trying to understand the payoff.

Mary Jo Foley (00:58:45):
I want people to use focused inbox because I think the more people that use it, the more people that use it, it's like an AI program. Right. So it's training it to supposedly be more accurate. And this say think is an advantage of outlook. To me, it's, there's nothing but an annoyance of outlook, but

Paul Thurrott (00:59:04):
Right, right. Yeah. Microsoft has a rich history of what I'll call nanny technology. It's the, it looks like you're trying to write a letter type thing. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> like trying to outthink the user. Yeah. When in fact, I think most people are unencumbered <laugh> by this and would simply like to just go email to email and don't really care about this kind of filtering. In fact, I think one of the most freeing things I ever did was move when I moved. I don't remember what I moved to or from, but I I, I switched from a system where I had folders of, you know, with, with you know, with filters that I, I handmade to make sure things went to certain places. And after a while you're like, you know, search works fine. Maybe just show it all in one folder, you know, one view and I'll just archive everything and not worry about where it is, you know? Yeah. That kind of thing. That, to me, that was very freeing.

Mary Jo Foley (01:00:00):
Yeah. The thing, I, I mean, I can't say enough how much I dislike focused in box, just cuz not only cuz it doesn't work, but because every single time I set up a new PC, they turn it on. Even though in my preferences it says, turn this off every single time. Right. <laugh> yeah. They really want you to use this and try it. And I it's like, okay, give it another chance though. Now it's better cuz we've had more people use the AI. No, it's still terrible.

Paul Thurrott (01:00:24):
Yeah. they they've they've they Microsoft have significantly undermined this sync capability they have and windows 11, it's almost nonexistent in office. I've complained about this for years. I, I, I go through a, I could document, I could do it right now and tell you exactly every single step. But when I, I set up a computer for the first time in word, I go through a very discreet series of steps to configure it exactly how I want it. It doesn't save any of that stuff. I mentioned how I use this secondary account for the book and, and just in one of life's other weird coincidences I actually assigned this account at Microsoft 365 from my family thing for whatever reason. And so now I can use word there. And the one thing that sinks by the way <laugh>, it's crazy is the the theme you use. So if you have like a dark theme or light theme, like that sinks,

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:13):
That works.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:14):
Yep. <Laugh> guys seriously, that's the, there are 1100 options I could make and you've that's the one you chose. That's the only one that sinks. I

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:21):
Know it's

Paul Thurrott (01:01:22):
Crazy.

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:23):
Crazy. Also another tip from a non tipping type person here mm-hmm <affirmative> outlook.com. Make sure you have make sure you have your a blocker turned on because I never see ads in outlook.com.

Paul Thurrott (01:01:37):
Oh interesting. That's where I saw that and

Mary Jo Foley (01:01:39):
It says, here's what it says. It tries to fake you out. It says, it looks like you're using an ad blocker, but if you wanna maximize space in your inbox, you just sign up for the ad free version. No, this has nothing to do with that. None. Zero. Like it's just keeping me from seeing the ad. That's

Paul Thurrott (01:01:55):
Right. I saw that. I, I saw you're right. That's right. And it wasn't trying to sell you on Microsoft 365. I just trying to sell you one storage, like basically, or like an outlook premium thing or whatever they call it. Right. Or ad free outlook, whatever the

Mary Jo Foley (01:02:07):
Heck. A free outlook. A free outlook. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. So yeah, you guys are starting

Paul Thurrott (01:02:12):
To sound like radical hippies.

Mary Jo Foley (01:02:14):
I know we are.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:15):
We've had it. Yeah, we've got it.

Mary Jo Foley (01:02:18):
But, but there's one more add thing just to keep the fuel going

Paul Thurrott (01:02:22):
Is insane. By the way,

Leo Laporte (01:02:23):
Then I'm gonna do an a so keep up the good work. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:26):
<Laugh> yes.

Mary Jo Foley (01:02:28):
Today's build of windows 11 in the dev channel has a line at the end that says, by the way, starting today, we're gonna start testing ads in search in the Microsoft store.

Leo Laporte (01:02:40):
<Laugh> oh my God. Apple's doing this. Apple's been doing it for a while.

Paul Thurrott (01:02:45):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Apple's gotten in trouble because you'll search for Spotify. I'll just use a simple example and apple music comes up first,

Leo Laporte (01:02:51):
Right? Yeah. But they also do ads for third party apps. They make a lot of money to do billions on

Paul Thurrott (01:02:57):
Ads. Of course they do. Yeah. It's a huge business firm them.

Mary Jo Foley (01:03:00):
Yep. And it's Microsoft sees that and they're like, we want that business too.

Leo Laporte (01:03:03):
And the thing is you, the good news is you can turn off application tracking on your iPhone mm-hmm <affirmative> and apple still gets all the data cuz their first party, Microsoft still gets all the data. When you use Bing or edge or windows,

Paul Thurrott (01:03:14):
This is the gatekeeper problem, right?

Leo Laporte (01:03:16):
Yeah. There's

Paul Thurrott (01:03:17):
The first Google sees what people are searching for. So they know what services to launch. Yeah. Amazon sees what people are searching for. So they know what to rip off and sells an Amazon basic apple sees what people are searching for and they know what app or service to copy and create it's it's it's it's so obvious. And so classic. Why wouldn't Microsoft want part of that? Yep.

Paul Thurrott (01:03:39):
You know, this is the yeah. The most frustrating thing about windows. No, that can't be, this is at least the second time I've said that today, but one of the most frustrating things about windows second, most frustrating is you could you, yeah, you can go into settings and there's a, there's a, this is like crazy. There's a privacy in security thing, right. There are gotta be like a million options in there and you can click things and check things and blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> this thing's gonna track everything you do. No matter what you select. Yeah. Have fun with that. And there are a couple of meaningful setting changes. You can make a couple, but the thing you can't do is actually just turn it off. Can't turn it off.

Leo Laporte (01:04:18):
There are solutions out there. They're a little radical Corey's new book. I got the name wrong is choke point capitalism.

Paul Thurrott (01:04:26):
Jesus like English, nanny capitalism. Yeah. And, but he's got,

Leo Laporte (01:04:31):
He's got a proposal when I was talking to doc earlier, he said you know, we need a lobby for machine readable privacy policies that you put on your computer. And every site you go to, it has to agree to your personal privacy policy and it's automatic. Wow. I mean, there are ways to solve this. I, I don't have high hopes for them being

Paul Thurrott (01:04:52):
Solved. No, no, no.

Leo Laporte (01:04:53):
We try. I mean, honestly one of the things I like about our model is we don't track people and people buy our shows cuz they're for geeks. So we get, you know, those advertisers who wanna speak to geeks, but it's not, you know, following you around kind of advertising. Right. I mean, look, I've always, I've spent almost 50 years in ad supported media, radio and TV and podcasting. And I like the model cuz you can get the shows for free, but that's why we added club TWiT by the way. So

Paul Thurrott (01:05:25):
I like, I like when there's a choice, I, I think when there's a choice, it has to be two choices. There's ads or there's no ads, you know? Right.

Leo Laporte (01:05:33):
And and you give us seven bucks a month. There's no ads. There's no tracking. There's nothing. Yep. Yep. And we, aren't gonna put ads in the, in this ad free club, TWiT versions. We don't even put ads for club TWiT in that. Right, right. And I agree that's double dipping and I, it bothers me when companies both charge you and, but everybody does it. Every, everybody does it. Now podcasting is the one last bastion and you know, one of the Spotify and iHeart are eating up, podcasting, YouTube, Google, Microsoft, and apple, they're eating up podcasting. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> stuff like what we, you know, independent podcasts like ours aren't they're

Paul Thurrott (01:06:10):
Devours of worlds. Yeah. It's 

Leo Laporte (01:06:13):
That's the choke point in choke point capitalism, by the way. Yeah. Corya if your kid goes to school with $5 for lunch and at the door of the school, there's a bunch of toughs who say, give me your money. Right. And you give it to him, the answer isn't solved by giving your kid $10 next time to just take more <laugh> right. Yeah. Right. The is to get rid of the choke point. Right. You know, to bypass the choke point. And so we'll get Corey on it. He can explain it better than I could. But anyway, welcome to the modern world. And I think you're right. I think it's both both a Theran and a fo rant <laugh> <laugh> but I think both both of you're absolutely. Right. This is ridiculous. This is out.

Paul Thurrott (01:06:55):
So this book is coming out in September, by

Leo Laporte (01:06:56):
The way. Yeah. He's doing a Kickstarter to raise money because he doesn't wanna sell it on Amazon or audible

Paul Thurrott (01:07:03):
Because I'd, I'd really like to listen to it as an

Leo Laporte (01:07:05):
Audible they're choke points. Right. 90% of people listen to audio books have to listen to audible. So they have complete dominance in that market. So we're trying not to be a Spotify. You can listen to us with Spotify, but you don't have to that's the point mm-hmm <affirmative> sure. And and you know, we do that either with the club or we monetize with the club or with ads, we do. I mean, I'm also very careful on advertisers. We don't, there's a lot of, of, I can't, I don't wanna say I don't wanna shame people, but there's advertisers that come to us the way I go. No, <laugh> we're not gonna do it. No. but today our show is brought to you by a fine company. You might have heard of C D w and Lenovo, this episode of windows weekly brought to you by Lenovo orchestrated by the experts at C D w the helpful people at CDW understand that as the world changes, your organization needs to adapt quickly to be successful.

Leo Laporte (01:08:03):
So how can CDW keep your business ahead of the curve? Lenovo, think pads, baby, these powerful devices deliver business class performance. You're looking for thanks to windows 10 and the Intel Evo platform with your remote teams, working across the country and around the world. Collaboration. Isn't a problem because Lenovo think pads keep your organization productive and connected from anywhere. Plus CDW knows your workforce has different work styles, right? They need flexibility, which is why Lenovo think pads are equipped with responsive tools and built in features that let your team work seamlessly across those favorite tools. Then think about that for a second. That's the, that's what people want. Isn't it? That's what makes you happy customers happy? And that's what CDW and Lenovo do. Let's not forget about security. These high performing machines protect at the highest level, built in hardware to guard against modern threats without slowing your team down. So when you need to get more out of your technology, Lenovo makes seamless productivity possible. CDW makes it powerful. Learn more at cdw.com/lenovo client that cdw.com/lenovo client. We thank him so much for supporting windows weekly. Now that wasn't hard. <Laugh> that wasn't painful. It's over. Now we can move on. Talk about other wonderful subjects, such as the unified outlook app project Monarch mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, I thought Monarch might come not from the butterfly or the king, but the idea of mono, right? Oh, one interface to rule them all kind of.

Paul Thurrott (01:09:49):
Wow. That's actually that's actually

Leo Laporte (01:09:52):
Possible. Does that make sense?

Mary Jo Foley (01:09:54):
It does. I saw somebody. No, somebody said it came from some TV show or some superhero,

Paul Thurrott (01:09:59):
Everything. Oh, well, project Monarch. Wasn't that a like a NASA

Leo Laporte (01:10:05):
Wasn't

Paul Thurrott (01:10:05):
That like an alien thing?

Leo Laporte (01:10:07):
Like I, but I like, I like the idea of a unified UI, right? Yeah,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:11):
I do too.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:11):
So yeah. The idea, you know,

Paul Thurrott (01:10:13):
Who does it, people use outlook <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:10:15):
Oh yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:16):
Well, they do not. No, it's funny. Like, like Paul said, last week you move one thing in outlook and people are just like, okay, I'm done. I'm like switching emails. Like, I don't like that this button is on the left and not on the bottom anymore. Like we're finished, like that's over. Right. <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:10:30):
Partly that's because the switching cost on email is very low. Isn't it? Right. Your email's the same. Yeah. It's just the tool you use to get it. I can change email clients in five minutes.

Mary Jo Foley (01:10:40):
You can. Yeah, you can. Yep. Yeah. But Microsoft's idea with Monarch also called one outlook. It wasn't to really help users so much, it was more to help Microsoft. Right. So the idea was by having a single code base for the web windows, and I think it was supposed to be the Mac also that they could more quickly update the code and streamline how it rolls out across all the different platforms and make it easier on them. Right. indirectly benefiting customers. So when they rolled this out for windows in may, there, there was a preview that people could start using if they were business customers. And they had a Microsoft 365 account though it was missing a lot of features. And one of the features that was missing was support for personal email accounts. So it, you couldn't add like your Gmail account or even your local Microsoft account to it outlook.

Mary Jo Foley (01:11:37):
You couldn't add that. But now as they're continuing the preview, you can now add personal emails to this. It's still considered a preview, this project, Monarch client. But now they're starting to add some of these missing features. So that's good. It's moving forward, I guess. It's still missing a bunch of other features that people are asking for. So I don't know when they're gonna designate this as final or GA or whatever, but everybody who you hear talk about this says, wait, I thought this was supposed to be a huge update to outlook. Right. I thought this was gonna be some massive, like brand new thing. Sure. It like outlook for the web. I'm like, yeah, that's what we told you out long. It looks like outlook for the web. That's how they,

Paul Thurrott (01:12:23):
I fall into this trap too, though. It was, it was delayed so much. I thought there's gotta be something else going on. And then you look

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:29):
At, it's be some reason, right?

Paul Thurrott (01:12:31):
It's just, this is outlook for the,

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:33):
Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. I used the preview. I was like, eh, it's okay. Like, it's, it looks like outlook to me, but anyway, <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:12:43):
Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:12:43):
There, you have it. Then there's whiteboard. Sorry. Another, another app whiteboard, which I have never used because I don't really participate in those kinds of group collaborative sessions where people use whiteboards at work or at home, or however people use whiteboards. But the thing that's surprising to me is how much effort Microsoft is putting into the whiteboard app. This week on the Microsoft 365 roadmap, they, they listed like 10 new features that are coming to whiteboard in the coming up in the coming weeks and months, as they like to say all kinds of things like URL links in whiteboard will be clickable. Users will have the ability to invite users on a whiteboard during a teams meeting to follow their viewpoint as they navigate and interact with the canvas, adding a timer to whiteboard. So you can run timed activities like a time brainstorm. Like there's just no end to the list of features. And all I can think when I hear this is, so what about the loop app? Like where is this? There's been absolutely no mention of this app. You know, the, the app that is the compliment to what Microsoft's doing with the loop components loop components are really cool. This was the idea you could have just

Paul Thurrott (01:14:01):
The notion Mike thing. Yeah. Yes. I'm dying for this. Where is,

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:05):
Is this? No one knows where this is. And I thought that would kind of overtake whiteboard or somehow, somehow like dovetail with whiteboard. And so far there's been no word at all about where this app is. It just, they announced it and there's been nothing since

Leo Laporte (01:14:19):
Then. It's probably hard to do.

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:21):
Yeah. Probably, but

Leo Laporte (01:14:23):
I think developers would love this.

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:26):
I think a lot of people would love it if it works like notion user.

Leo Laporte (01:14:29):
Yes. 

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:30):
Yes. Which is a, it looks, it looks a lot like notion mm-hmm <affirmative> like, notion's not too happy about Microsoft building an app as a direct

Leo Laporte (01:14:37):
Core. That's what slowed it down.

Mary Jo Foley (01:14:39):
<Laugh> yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know. I just am surprised cuz when I heard about notion and right about notion, I mean, sorry, not notion about loop the loop app. I thought, okay, this is, this is gonna replace whiteboard, right? Like it's a canvas where people can all collaborate together and it can be like a to-do app, but it also can be like a project management app. I thought this would be the new thing, but so far it's just nowhere in sight. I haven't heard a word. Have you Paul, anything at all?

Paul Thurrott (01:15:06):
No, nothing. I thought, I honestly thought this was gonna be the year we, you know, there'd be a big push at build and then it would kind of shift in time for the, it could still happen at ignite I guess, but yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:18):
I guess yeah, not a thing. The loop components are rolling out. Like those are becoming available and where do you use them? The teams. So you use them in Microsoft apps. So like in teams or in the new one outlook. Okay. The new one outlook Monarch thing. You can embed loop components in that, right? Yeah. It's very cool. But I'm like, yeah, but I still wanted to see the standalone app cuz that seemed kinda like the ultimate.

Paul Thurrott (01:15:42):
I'll definitely look at it, you know, consider moving from notion for that, if it made sense, but yeah. I don't know where it is. We'll see. So whatever.

Mary Jo Foley (01:15:51):
Yeah. I keep looking cuz they they've got a lot of their projects that the loop team has a lot of things on GitHub and their repositories and I always am looking for the app. I'm like interesting

Leo Laporte (01:16:02):
There. Yeah. Well they obviously have an app, right?

Mary Jo Foley (01:16:05):
They're they've it's gotta exist somewhere, but where is

Leo Laporte (01:16:08):
It? They're I mean they're writing to it. Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of I mean this is an old idea, like HyperCard on the Mac, you, the idea was you could add C binary components to your deck. It was a stack of of cards and it really was revolutionary in its time. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and then Google did wave same idea, which is and even some like all in one office work solutions like Microsoft or Microsoft works right. Or Claris works on the Mac. The idea was, I don't know if you do this, Microsoft works with Claris works. You could embed the spreadsheet into a word processor and vice versa. They were all kind of componentized. I think this is

Paul Thurrott (01:16:50):
Office supports that.

Leo Laporte (01:16:51):
Yeah. Yeah. But I just feel like this is back to what Microsoft was thinking about with Olay. Yeah. And, and,

Paul Thurrott (01:16:59):
And this was built into the design of windows 95 that we were just talking about earlier

Leo Laporte (01:17:03):
In 27 years.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:04):
Notion of compound documents. Yeah. Right.

Leo Laporte (01:17:07):
Yeah. Longhorn was supposed to be document centric, right? Yes.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:11):
Well it was object oriented, like

Leo Laporte (01:17:13):
Object sec. Yes. In

Paul Thurrott (01:17:14):
Windows 95 didn't go far enough obviously. But it was, they would say it was object based <laugh> you know? Right.

Leo Laporte (01:17:21):
Because the premises, well, you know, we've been tied to documents cuz we had pieces of paper and file folders and stuff <affirmative> but that's not how people think or were mm-hmm <affirmative> sure. And so why does a computer have to be tied to this, you know, notion of a, a page doesn't make sense? Apparently it's a hard computer science problem.

Paul Thurrott (01:17:41):
I was literally thinking that exact phrase <laugh> I think, I think it really was actually in that case

Leo Laporte (01:17:46):
<Affirmative>

Paul Thurrott (01:17:47):
It's

Leo Laporte (01:17:47):
They? Cause it's failed again and again. Yeah. Yep. So what is white? So whiteboards not loop.

Mary Jo Foley (01:17:55):
No,

Paul Thurrott (01:17:56):
No, but it's I, I think the way to put it is it's it's no, it's one of many Microsoft products that can integrate with loop components. Ah, yes. Like teams and outlook are the two big ones, but 

Leo Laporte (01:18:08):
So I know you don't care about apple at all.

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:11):
No

Leo Laporte (01:18:12):
<Laugh> but at WWDC, their developer conference in June, they announced a new whiteboard tool for Mac and everybody's going, why, why there's third party? Right. Why? And I think Microsoft and apple both have this same idea. We need a, a framework to

Paul Thurrott (01:18:30):
What was the they're gonna revive open doc or what was the thing

Leo Laporte (01:18:34):
Open? That

Paul Thurrott (01:18:35):
Was it. Yeah. What was the thing they did with IBM?

Leo Laporte (01:18:37):
Pink

Paul Thurrott (01:18:38):
Pink, well, pink,

Mary Jo Foley (01:18:40):
Pink

Leo Laporte (01:18:41):
Was pink.

Paul Thurrott (01:18:42):
Yeah. One of those things

Leo Laporte (01:18:44):
Again everybody's

Paul Thurrott (01:18:46):
It was that era was the 1990s. Everyone was looking at object orientation.

Leo Laporte (01:18:50):
Yeah. Allen K wanted to do this. The Macintosh was originally supposed to be sure that like not a document centric operating system, but 

Paul Thurrott (01:19:00):
They, they, they could draw windows had to discreetly. That was enough <laugh> you know, back in 1980 those

Leo Laporte (01:19:06):
Days. Yeah. You didn't. That was but maybe we finally have enough computer power Ram. I mean it needs a lot of Ram I'm sure. Yeah, sure. A lot of horsepower to do this. Maybe it's maybe, maybe it's just, we didn't have enough

Paul Thurrott (01:19:19):
Or maybe this is like the focus inbox thing. And all I really need to do is see one thing at a time and I'm, I'm kind of a simple person and I don't really

Leo Laporte (01:19:26):
Care. Well, isn't that funny? Yeah. Cuz I, you know, Apple's doing all this stuff now to have multiple windows and stuff and actually mostly the way I use both Mac and iPads are full screen

Paul Thurrott (01:19:36):
Window at a time. Yeah. And

Leo Laporte (01:19:37):
Then I slide it over and then I'm doing that window and then me it back mm-hmm <affirmative> same. You too. You guys too. Mm-Hmm

Paul Thurrott (01:19:42):
<Affirmative> you know what though? I actually think that's the way people's brains work best. I think the other, when you have too many things going on at once, it's distracting <affirmative> and I think you lose focus and I don't think you work as well.

Mary Jo Foley (01:19:55):
Well, you know, Microsoft's premises, you do it on two monitors, right. Because that's that makes you more productive.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:01):
Yeah. I'd like to see the data on that, but <laugh> I think what, what we do know scientifically speaking is that people are terrible multitaskers. <Laugh> just ask anyone. Who's tried to send a text message while they're driving a car.

Mary Jo Foley (01:20:14):
Yeah. <Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:20:15):
No,

Mary Jo Foley (01:20:16):
I feel like two monitors does make sense. Like I, I understand that idea. Like you keep something that you don't look at quite as much on a smaller monitor the side. Okay. But you know, that was their whole thing about the duo, right? Like it's got a hinge, it's two screens that's you're just gonna be more productive. Right.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:31):
I mean, productivity goes through the roof.

Leo Laporte (01:20:33):
Yeah. <Laugh> yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:20:35):
If you say so. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:20:39):
It is kind of interesting.

Mary Jo Foley (01:20:40):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:20:42):
Okay. Okay. moving, moving right along. Shall we go to I O T the world of yes. The internet of things

Paul Thurrott (01:20:54):
We should intrigued by this. We should.

Mary Jo Foley (01:20:57):
Yeah. So last week, Google, you know, Google's famous for killed by Google killing a lot of consumer products. Right? Last week, they just quietly announced they were killing this thing. They have called the IOT core service. So IOT core services, like the core of what they're doing with IOT. And the reason this was surprising to me was if you think about what is one of the biggest workloads fueling the growth of the cloud, all three cl of the big cloud vendors, AWS, Microsoft, and Google would agree at least up until now that IOT and edge computing was one of the biggest workloads for the cloud. That's why you kept hearing Satya say intelligent cloud, intelligent edge. Like they go together. This is where we're putting a lot of focus. So Google shutters, this no explanation, other than, you know what we have partners doing this, we don't really need to do this ourselves. And I saw a story in tech crunch saying, you know what we think they're gonna do? And this holds a lot of weight cuz I, I was trying to think, why did they do that? They're so busy trying to compete, especially with Microsoft in the main part of cloud computing and attracting enterprises to use their cloud. That maybe they're just like, let's focus on that. And IOT's over here. Like we're not doing a great job with it and let's just put that over there. Right?

Paul Thurrott (01:22:12):
Okay. They're a very distant number three. I think they are them have a very number three focusing on maybe something they might be able to do well, does make sense. Although it does not to get up on a sidetrack, most IOT devices today are Android embedded Android type devices. Yes. It's weird to me that Google, which makes Android has not been able, which is based on I'm sorry. Yeah. Most it's Linux it's embedded Linux. Linux. Yeah. Android is based on Linux. I mean, it's weird to me that they haven't been able to make a go of that either. <Laugh> right. But they are, but there's

Leo Laporte (01:22:44):
Microsoft. We can't make a go and nothing. Are you kidding? This is the weirdest company ever. If it's not search and ads in search, then forget it. Yep. They just could watch it.

Paul Thurrott (01:22:55):
Yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:22:55):
That's true. So I, I was curious when I heard about this, I'm like, so what is Microsoft doing int edge computing? Like we haven't heard a lot about that lately. So I started digging around <laugh> and I found out that they had a huge reorg at Microsoft in April where they took their OT and edge teams and they just mushed them into Azure. And I'm like, okay, that makes a lot of sense in a way. Right. Because a lot of what Microsoft's been doing with IOT is they're doing services in Azure, the connect IOT devices in various ways to the cloud. So I started asking Microsoft for interviews about this. I'm like, Hey, can you guys talk to me about what you're doing in OT and edge? They're like, Nope. I asked them in April. I asked them in may. I asked them in June.

Mary Jo Foley (01:23:36):
I asked them in July still, no, we're not ready to talk about this. So I'm like, okay, either there's nothing going on and they get nothing to say or there's a lot going on and they're saving it up for like ignite. Right. So I, I dug around a little more, there were some sessions at bill this year about I, what Microsoft's doing with IOT. And a lot of it involves Kubernetes at the edge, which is kind of interesting, like the idea of putting your workloads at the edge into containers that you can then use as like edge devices where the sensors connect to these edge computing platforms.

Paul Thurrott (01:24:13):
Okay. 

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:15):
That's

Paul Thurrott (01:24:15):
One, is there anything about what about Azure sphere and that kind of,

Mary Jo Foley (01:24:18):
Yeah, so they're doing a lot of work on the clients, right? So Azure sphere is the Linux micro controller operating system that they built. They're doing a lot still there. They're doing a lot with Azure stack, the Azure stack family. So all the on-premises stuff that they've been building like hybrid computing stuff, there's, they're arc enabling a lot of stuff. So that means they're making everything, their, their goal is to make all these internet of things, devices manageable from their own platform, from their arc platform in the cloud. So they've got a lot of different pieces, like moving around and, and kind of coming together. And I'm very interested to see what they're gonna say about this. If they do say something at ignite, because I feel like they've got a lot going on, on all parts of the IOT and edge computing front. But so maybe they just can't explain it yet. Or maybe they're just not a hundred percent sure. Kind of how they're gonna explain it publicly, but they're doing the opposite of Google. They're like really doubling down on what they're doing in OT. So it's definitely something we all should keep our eyes on. Even you Paul. I know I'm not saying a field night, but

Paul Thurrott (01:25:23):
No I'm interested in this. I I've, I, I felt for a while, like the IOT world has kind of continued along without Microsoft's help, you know? Yes. And, but I felt that way about Google too, you know, Google has done little, various things and walked away from them and, and whatever. But you know, I, I don't know, we'll be talking about this next on TWiTg, cuz of course Stacy Higginbotham was the OT expert. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think she was very happy about the Microsoft IOT.

Mary Jo Foley (01:25:53):
Yeah. There's a ton. AWS is doing a ton in OT consumer enterprise, the whole gamut.

Paul Thurrott (01:25:59):
They're that's actually, that's where I wanted to go next. So I think the question I would ask Stacy is when you look at the big tech firms and I guess primarily here, we're talking Amazon, Microsoft, Google, what is their footprint? Other than the cloud stuff. In other words like obviously AWS is used for whatever. Right. But, but, but are any of these companies actually big players in IOT directly? And if not like, what is the IOT market? Is, is it like the wild west? Like the personal computer market was in the very early 1980s where it a bunch of small

Leo Laporte (01:26:31):
Players. It is cause you have a lot of Chinese companies that don't play along there's movement to get more security into IOT mm-hmm <affirmative> and that's these companies are off back end that provides more security. And I wonder matter might superseded all of this and I'm trying to think matters, but does matter

Paul Thurrott (01:26:51):
Use worldwide web or something of IOT or

Leo Laporte (01:26:54):
Yeah, it's supposed to be the lingua franca cuz that's one of the other problems with IOT and home automation as you got zigb you got Z wave, you got wink, you got all these different things that don't talk to one other so matter was supposed to unite that world. And then I, I would bet there's a security play also with matter for

Mary Jo Foley (01:27:13):
Sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. There's a huge security play with Microsoft because they, they can say we're, we're building out this whole platform around Azure active directory and our identity standards. And what if we could also bring IOT into that too and secure it from our cloud and, and that way, you know, it's secured by Azure,

Leo Laporte (01:27:30):
I'm looking at their website, they have an article on building a secure IOT and they have the who,

Paul Thurrott (01:27:38):
Who are you looking at? I'm

Leo Laporte (01:27:39):
Sorry. Matter, because matter is the industrywide, Microsoft's a player, Apple's a player, Google everybody, they're calling it the distributed compliance ledger. It's a blockchain. Oh crap. <Laugh> well that will attest to the Providence and performance of a device behind the scenes when a device connects to a matter network. I don't know if they're prescribing whose backend you need to use. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>

Mary Jo Foley (01:28:07):
I can't measure Microsoft. No, Microsoft's big area. I think where they're gonna push as having an advantage is the edge, right? So you have IOT devices, but they connect to the edge computing fabric. Right? And the idea is you bring in order to reduce latency and improve, improve performance, you bring edge your edge computing platforms. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> closer to where the sensors are and where the con, where the end user devices are. Right. So Microsoft has a good play there because they're doing all this stuff with hybrid and you know, and when we think of edge device, a lot of people think of like small devices, they think of like micro controls and that kind of thing, but edge devices can be data centers. It can be servers. Right. And it just as where you do the compute closer to the endpoints, like the sensor endpoints. So I think that's where we're gonna hear more from Microsoft. That's my prediction is on the, like what SAT's intelligent edge. Right. Okay. Where to come. I think this is gonna be something we hear a lot about the rest of this year prediction.

Leo Laporte (01:29:08):
This will be a great conversation with Stacy too. So yeah. And I'll report back to you. You don't have to.

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:14):
Okay, great.

Leo Laporte (01:29:14):
Yeah. You don't have to listen. Oh, thank show or anything like that.

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:19):
I subscribe to her newsletter, her newsletter.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:21):
I don't know if you know how busy I am earlier

Leo Laporte (01:29:23):
Away. And she really does follow this stuff and is of totally,

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:26):
Yeah. Her newsletter's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, she's like into stuff like I'm like no one else cares and follows it and it great. She does

Leo Laporte (01:29:32):
<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So she'll have a lot to say about this I'm sure. Yeah, yeah,

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:36):
Yeah. Cool.

Leo Laporte (01:29:38):
All right. I'm sorry, Mary Jo. Your time is up.

Mary Jo Foley (01:29:42):
That's okay.

Leo Laporte (01:29:43):
<Laugh> time to talk Xbox with the Xbox man stuff. Well, most

Paul Thurrott (01:29:49):
Of this, most of this is actually third party stuff, but, or non Xbox gaming gaming

Leo Laporte (01:29:54):
Stuff. Let's talk, just talk gaming then.

Paul Thurrott (01:29:55):
Yeah. I just, the way it worked out this week, I wish I could tell you that Bethesda, which is part of Microsoft is having an unbelievable sale right now because quake con just happened for the first time in two years or whatever, but it ended, I believe. And there was a period of time there for the over five days or whatever it was, where you could get all those early versions of quake and doom and everything else for like a couple bucks like dollar 24, 2, whatever that's over. Nice.

Leo Laporte (01:30:25):
I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott (01:30:26):
It's over. But the good news is if you are on also announced at quake con, if you were on PC game pass, there's a couple of you, interesting things happening. One is in tandem with the show, they released a bunch of games to PC game pass. We don't actually talk about that too much, but obviously this is the version of Xbox game pass for pit for PCs. The big things in my mind are the Wolfenstein and quake games. Of course, cuz that's where my brain is, but quake four classic quake four, if you can follow the convoluted history of quake is of course the sequel to quake two. <Laugh> but it's a great stem one game.

Leo Laporte (01:31:05):
It was a quake three though. I remember

Paul Thurrott (01:31:07):
That's right. Quake three arena. So quake three arena was followed by team arena. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and then now we have actually I think they just finished something called quake champions. I think it's called, which is an online game. And so that's the kind of just death match only, you know, frantic kind of they

Leo Laporte (01:31:23):
Invented the, the death match. I mean that was the king of the death match. It was amazing.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:28):
Yeah. So quake quake, the original quake was kind of a, well, it was a mass is what it was, but as far as like the plot, I couldn't even explain it, but it is what it is, but it had single and multiplayer components. 

Leo Laporte (01:31:39):
Two, we played quake three arena, 20 years ago on the screensaver set. I mean that's we love that thing. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:31:46):
Yeah. Excellent. The single player version of quake three arena was a multiplayer experience that you played against bots. Like that's the game like? And then when you play multiplayer, it's the same levels you just play against people. Anyway I feel like quake two and quake quake four are underrated. Those games are great. They have great single player campaigns. Quake four is now available on Xbox game pass as our Wolf Stein 3d the classic, the original ID software version of Wolfenstein and then returned to castle Wolfenstein, which is a much more recent game. Although actually now it's probably getting close to 20 years old and some other games too. But yeah, quake champions, I'm sorry. The new game is called quake champions. And I think, I think that's, it might even be web based, but it's online based.

Paul Thurrott (01:32:29):
Anyway, those games are all available now and others are available now on PC game pass. And then looking at the competition, couple of interesting things GForce now, which has a standalone client, but if you go through the browser Chrome or edge, you can get 144, I'm sorry, 1440 P slash 120 frames per second. What performance in the browser browser. Yeah, and I, I haven't looked at GForce now in a while they actually have three tiers of of the service and the highest end. This requires the highest end one I should say should actually add that little asterisk the highest end version, which is $20 per month, which they call the RTX 30, 80 tier, which is hilarious. Cuz that's the name of the graphics card? Well

Leo Laporte (01:33:13):
You're probably playing on a 30, 80 actually.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:16):
Right? That's what it is exactly. Yeah. So if, if you go through the native client on that tier, you get 120 frames per second at 4k. But if you just go through the browser, you can get, you have 1440 P it's pretty good. That's unbelievable. Wow. This yeah, this service has 1300 games and it's live. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, these are games that are available through steam most commonly, but also epic games, game star. So it's very, if you're PC, I

Leo Laporte (01:33:41):
Play it on my shield, my invidious

Paul Thurrott (01:33:43):
Shield. Oh, interesting.

Leo Laporte (01:33:44):
Interesting. And it plays quite well. I haven't tried the high res version. No, I wonder how well that would play.

Paul Thurrott (01:33:50):
Yeah. So I, the browser version's new, I'm not sure about the other version, but the the browser. So nice. So a lot of the, this past week, this week has been there's a show in Germany called Gamescom. This year they're doing it in person for the first time in a couple years I was invited to attend. I declined <laugh> <laugh> because, you know, people and whatnot but there are a lot of gaming related things occurring this week that are kind of interesting. So if you're familiar with the Microsoft way of doing things, you know, in the Xbox world, we have the elite controller, there have been two generations of it. Oddly, they haven't updated the elite controller to support that screenshot slash video recording button we have on the newer Xbox controllers, but presumably a year now Sony this week has announced something called the dual sense edge controller, which is their version of the elite controller.

Paul Thurrott (01:34:43):
And so this is the one where you can pop off all the buttons and the the sticks and triggers and do all that kind of stuff and have different profiles and blah, blah, blah, whatever. So super expensive. I would imagine. I don't think they announced the pricing, but the, the elite controller, I think it might be, it might be $300. It's at least $200. It's, it's very expensive. It's expensive enough. I'm not gonna be paying for it because I drop my controller on the ground all the time. And as much as I like the Lego effect of every single part of the controller flying and it

Leo Laporte (01:35:13):
Made a different direction, you don't drop it. You throw it.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:16):
No, actually so hard actually against the wall. I, no, I've never thrown a controller. What the truth is, what will happen is I I'll be I've cl look, if you play video games, you've experienced this latency issue, right? Bullets flying guys running through it, like it's, you know, I didn't hit anything. What am I a storm trooper? And then I'm dead. And then what I do in, in just in quiet sadness is the controller falls out my hand <laugh> and bobs off the ground. And I'm like

Leo Laporte (01:35:43):
Slump

Paul Thurrott (01:35:44):
<Laugh> and it's like, come on, it's the worst. That's how I drop the controller. Anyway. Then you get into the situation where the controller gets stuck and you get the, you know, your, your guy is honestly, you know, just,

Leo Laporte (01:35:55):
I'd rather yout through it. That's sad.

Paul Thurrott (01:35:57):
That's depressing. No, I don't wanna hurt the house. I'm just seeing

Leo Laporte (01:36:00):
<Laugh> or the TV.

Paul Thurrott (01:36:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Sony had also previously announced they'd be coming out with a new VR system for the PlayStation five. We were expecting it to come out for this holiday season this week. They announced it will in fact be coming out in early 20, 23. So PlayStation VR two it's 2000 by 2040 resolution per I don't know why it's not just two by two, 110 degree field of view, which is pretty close to wide. I mean, that's, I think ultra wide starts around 1 15, 1 20, somewhere in there and then high refresh rates. So it will sport 4k, blah, blah, blah, whatever, but we're not getting that on the Xbox side. So let's move on. And then the final thing, this one actually does impact gamers on PCs and Xbox, Amazon announced again, as part of Gamescom, that game control is now available to developers is kind of a wait list type thing. You have to sign up for it. The first game will ship in. I think it, I think they said early 20, 23, but it's called dead island two, which is a long awaited sequel to that zombie game. If, if you think about, think about this for a second, right? Like you, you're not gonna speak commands for fast action things like in call it duty. You're not gonna say shoot, shoot, shoot. You know, that doesn't make any sense, but it is for right. I mean, but it's for second secondary actions, right? That'd be FRA

Leo Laporte (01:37:23):
Shoot,

Paul Thurrott (01:37:24):
Shoot, shoot, bazooka, shoot. What's the cute. What, what is he doing in there? <Laugh> you just like, you think I yell at the screen? No. So it's just swapping weapons, you know, and this, if they actually, they literally, you can distract zombies by saying, Hey zombie, Hey zombie,

Leo Laporte (01:37:37):
Hey, over here. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:37:39):
That's so the interest this'll be fun. This will work on PCs and consoles. You have to support unity and C plus plus game engine centers, et etc. So it should work for just about everything. The interesting thing to me about this is, well, the dumbness of it, I don't, you know, I don't think I would ever personally use this, but if you are an or an, you know, an Amazon I'm trying to not to say the word, an Amazon, a smart assistant user. There

Leo Laporte (01:38:04):
You go. Yeah. A word. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:38:05):
You don't have to use the, a word to wake up. The thing to make. I would do these commands. So in the game you just talk a

Leo Laporte (01:38:12):
Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew.

Paul Thurrott (01:38:14):
If you do want to interact with your smart home devices, set timers, see

Leo Laporte (01:38:18):
What the weather is, then you

Paul Thurrott (01:38:19):
Do in the game. You can say a word. Ah, and then whatever the phrase is, and that will turn on the normal,

Leo Laporte (01:38:26):
You sound kind of frantic. Are you okay?

Paul Thurrott (01:38:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:38:29):
I'm getting Frank here, man. Turn

Paul Thurrott (01:38:31):
On the lights. Blood pressure seems a little high <laugh> should I call a doctor? No. Just tell me what the weather is.

Leo Laporte (01:38:37):
<Laugh> so why do you wanna know the weather you're being killed?

Paul Thurrott (01:38:41):
Yeah. Anyway, so we'll we'll that game, I should say dead rising. Did I get dead? Did I say dead? Rising, not dead. Rising dead island, dead island. Dead rising has at least three games. Dead island too, will be available on the PC and the Xbox. And I believe it supports game. Yeah. Sorry. I keep saying that I believe it supports us on

Leo Laporte (01:38:59):
Anybody who listens to our shows with their assistance nearby. I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:03):
Has stopped doing this years ago. Yeah. They gave up. Yeah. And you don't to be clear, you don't need one of Amazon's devices or anything like that. It's it's built into the system. So it's it's

Leo Laporte (01:39:13):
I have the

Paul Thurrott (01:39:15):
Ends free. If that makes sense.

Leo Laporte (01:39:16):
What is the name? There is game system. Nova, what do they call it? I have their Luna Luna. That's right. I have the Luna.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:23):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:39:23):
Works great controller. Yep. Cuz it's a wifi. So you want, you want to use it with Luna?

Paul Thurrott (01:39:28):
Honestly, one of the best I would say I think the lowest latency game experience right now might be Luna.

Leo Laporte (01:39:34):
It's pretty good. I am. Yeah. I am. At some point gonna have to decide.

Paul Thurrott (01:39:39):
Yeah. Stadia

Leo Laporte (01:39:39):
Or which one is it? Stadia? Is it Luna? Is it X cloud? Is it a GForce now I'm gonna have to pick one

Paul Thurrott (01:39:46):
G4 or yeah. Okay. GForce

Leo Laporte (01:39:48):
Also there's that? What was that? Thing that I put windows in the cloud so I could play stray, whatever I,

Paul Thurrott (01:39:57):
What our windows 365 or

Leo Laporte (01:39:58):
Yeah, no, no. It's anyway.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:01):
Oh, the thing you were talking about now. Yeah,

Leo Laporte (01:40:02):
I showed it last week, but I can't remember the name anymore, so obviously right. I better, better find out so I can cancel that subscription, but that's five different ways I can stream games now.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:13):
Oh yeah. It, we did not to mention thank you. Microsoft's Xbox cloud gaming.

Leo Laporte (01:40:19):
Well, I call it X cloud, so,

Paul Thurrott (01:40:21):
Oh, I'm

Leo Laporte (01:40:21):
Sorry. Okay. Yeah, no, I have 'em all. I don't

Paul Thurrott (01:40:25):
Know which one. Yeah. Eventually there will only be a few left.

Leo Laporte (01:40:27):
Yeah, the games aren't the same on all of them. That's part of the problem.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:32):
Yep. Yep. And the experience is different too. I mean mm-hmm, <affirmative> I think stadia and Luna probably have the best controller experience with latency. Right. Which is

Leo Laporte (01:40:40):
A big game. They have those direct

Paul Thurrott (01:40:41):
Control. If you wanna pay, like do a maternal or some fast moving game. Yeah. You need something low latency. Yeah. You know far cry, whatever we're on now. Five or six, six, I guess. So

Leo Laporte (01:40:53):
Good.

Paul Thurrott (01:40:56):
Sorry about the sale thing. This, the Bethesda sale was awesome. So he didn't have

Leo Laporte (01:41:01):
This. Yeah. Kicking myself. I missed it.

Paul Thurrott (01:41:04):
Yeah. Really good.

Leo Laporte (01:41:09):
Okie doki. I think we we can wake up Mary Jo, her coma is over and we can <laugh> and we can quickly go to the back of the book after a word from our sponsor, the good folks at new Relic, big fan of new Relic. I've talked about it before. I, you know, I, as, as you know, Paul and I love devs, you know, we we're self style developers, but even the professional people, you know, one of the things that characterizes developers like all engineers, they're curious, right? They're the first to try new stuff. They like, they actually read the documentation. They wanna know not only how things work, but why they work that way. That's why so many engineers, people like us turn to new Relic. New Relic gives you data about what you build as a developer and shows you the one thing every developer wants to know.

Leo Laporte (01:42:03):
But sometimes can't tell what's really happening in your software lifecycle. It's so much more than just a bugging. It's, it's a single place to see the data from your entire stack, from the cloud on down. So you don't have to look at, you know, a bunch of different tools figure out how they relate to one another. In fact, new Relic has 16 of the most useful tools all in one package. So you can use those and you will have one screen that shows you everything you need to know. In fact, if there's a bug in your code, it will actually pinpoint the issue down to the line of code. So, you know, as you want to why the problems are happening and how you can fix them quickly, this is why so many dev and ops teams use new Relic, 14,000 companies like DoorDash and GitHub, epic games.

Leo Laporte (01:42:48):
They use new Relic to debug and improve their software. And when teams come together around data, it allows you to triage problems, be confident in decisions and reduce the time you need to implement resolutions. And you're doing it with facts, with data, not opinions like, well, let's try this. No, you know, use the data platform made for you. The curious, right now you can get access to the whole new Relic platform, the entire platform, and a hundred gigabytes of data free every month forever, no credit card, even sign up at new relic.com/windows, N E w R E L I c.com/windows, new relic.com/windows. Thank you. New Relic. And now time for the back of the book, we start with Pauly little poly Theran

Paul Thurrott (01:43:40):
<Laugh> <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:43:42):
And speaking

Paul Thurrott (01:43:42):
Of developers

Leo Laporte (01:43:44):
Tip of the week. Yes, sir.

Paul Thurrott (01:43:45):
So this past week, Microsoft had a.net con, which is a one day virtual conference focused on Maui, which is the, do not the new.net based. Now I'm hoping they did this in Hawaii, but I'm pretty sure they, no, no, no. It was a, it was a goofy little home spun event. But if you're interested in this environment, which is, Microsoft's kind of answered a flutter meaning, well, it's also the follow up to Xin forms, right? So this is the new, more modern way of creating cross platform apps. In this case, it run a can run on windows, Mac, Android, and iOS using a single code base simplified kind of project structure, which I like. You can go back and watch the keynote which is a little goofy but worth watching. And the sessions individually can pick and choose which ones you want.

Paul Thurrott (01:44:34):
The thing that's most interesting to me here is about 95% of the way through this thing, through the keynote, they started looking forward to.net seven, which we know is coming out at the end of this year. And then part of the.net seven wave is gonna involve a major update to Maui, which will include more desktop support specifically for windows. And they talked about a bunch of the controls and features they're adding, they're leading me to wonder if Maui isn't being positioned as if not the future, certainly a future for people who want to create desktop apps on windows like native desktop apps, cuz it's when UI three based, et cetera, et cetera. So I am curious about that. I don't, I don't mean to say I don't care, but I I'm really curious whether Microsoft will ever do anything on the desktop again for developers.

Paul Thurrott (01:45:22):
And maybe <laugh>, you know, I'll be looking at this soon. My app pick of the week is one of those hell froze over moments. We know that Sony and Microsoft have been going at it through back channels with regards to both Xbox game pass and Xbox cloud gaming and also Microsoft's acquisition or attempted acquisition of division blizzard. And yet they have taken what I think is a two, maybe three year old Sony PlayStation for premier title. And they've poured it to the PC and they're making it available on PC game pass. So there is hope for us all <laugh> it's called death stranding. This is the Norman reus. You know, the guy from the walking dead like Lindsay Wagner's in it. I can't think of his name. I'm sorry. He is the Danish actor, the guy who played Hannibal lector in the Hannibal lector TV series, whatever that was called he's fantastic is in this game. I, I may literally start playing on a PC just to play this one game. Very, very interesting. So among the games that were announced this past week, coming to PC game pass that I mentioned earlier is a Sony title that was previously a PlayStation exclusive, but they're bringing it to the PC. So the world's getting a little weird out there.

Leo Laporte (01:46:48):
<Laugh> oh, if you think it's weird. Wait till you hear Mary Jo Foley's enterprise pick of the week.

Mary Jo Foley (01:46:56):
I don't think this is too weird.

Leo Laporte (01:46:57):
No, I'm just trying to, to say I try to sell it. That's all. Leo is the endless promotion, this a promotion. If you think that's exciting. Enter, wait

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:07):
Here, here, hearing this. Okay.

Leo Laporte (01:47:09):
Too much time spending the trenches in broadcast television. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:14):
I'm gonna make it exciting just cuz you gave it a nice intro here. Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:47:17):
<Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (01:47:19):
In 2020. Microsoft announced this thing called Azure communication services. ACS, if you know what TWiTlio does, it's kind of like that. You can take the chat, the texting, the video and the voice services that Microsoft uses in teams and break them out and use them in your own apps if you're a developer. So we haven't heard a whole lot about this since say analysis in 2020. But now as of this week, it seems that these services are generally available. And I'm not clear from the various ways this is worded. If it they're just for people writing teams, apps. But I think it's beyond that. I think it's anybody. Who's a third party developer who wants to use Microsoft's own battle, tested, texting voice video kinds of services that they use in teams can take these services and put them in their own business apps.

Mary Jo Foley (01:48:19):
Now this is interesting because a lot of people wanna add things like, you know, support for its telephony to their app, but they're like, oh, that's a lot of work, but what if you could just take Microsoft's APIs, including the graph, you know, everything that builds into the graph API and use that to build your app. That's the premise of this. You get all the things that, that are built into the platform, like support for Azure active directory, all, all the identity kinds of services that Microsoft's doing. And it's just is already there and done for you. So if you're a developer looking to build things that might use these kind of services, you should check out what Microsoft has with ACS. That was pretty exciting, right?

Leo Laporte (01:49:01):
<Laugh> not as exciting as <laugh>.

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:06):
I did my best guys. It's pretty much

Leo Laporte (01:49:08):
Anything actually. Mads Kelson, the chat room. Thank you. And he's Danish. He's a, he didn't I say Danish. I thought he said Danish. Danish. Yes. Anyway, he's an excellent actor. I like him lot. Yes. Mods. Yeah. Now the code name pick of the week.

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:25):
Yes. And I'm sure Paul is gonna help weigh in on this. So I

Leo Laporte (01:49:28):
Did I add a few things to the next.

Mary Jo Foley (01:49:30):
Okay. <Laugh> okay, good. I, I figured you wouldn't resist this one. So everybody, I feel like knows the code name of windows 95 was Chicago. Chicago. Yeah. That's pretty well known. Yeah. Yeah. Right. That could even be a jeopardy question. And normal people might know that. I feel like mm-hmm <affirmative> or at least some normal people might know, know that, but did you know the code name of I E 1.0, which shipped at the same time as Chicago? The code name was O'Hare

Leo Laporte (01:49:57):
<Laugh> O'Hare Chicago airport. Yes. Oh, I love it. That's actually clever.

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:01):
It was clever. Yeah. This was the days. This was the days when code names are fun and chasing them was fun. It's not as fun anymore. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but I E one was part of the thing called windows 95 plus pack. The code name of that was frosting <laugh> right. Like the frosting on the cake. And then there are other similarly theme things around windows 95, like windows 95, OSR two the OSR two release was Detroit. That was the code name of that. Right. Ah and then Paul added some more going along in this theme to this code name pick we had Memphis was windows 98. Yeah. So they were staying and that geography just saying, okay, we're doing windows code names here.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:42):
And chiro, by the way I remember was going to, was going to be windows sent to something, something, and it wasn't. But,

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:49):
But then we had Neptune and asteroid and oh that's

Paul Thurrott (01:50:52):
Yeah. We went to space. Yeah. Odyssey was one.

Leo Laporte (01:50:55):
What was

Mary Jo Foley (01:50:55):
NEP? Odyssey.

Paul Thurrott (01:50:57):
Yeah. Neptune. Well, they never really St so that was gonna be like a windows 98. Well, Neptune was

Leo Laporte (01:51:05):
They're about as consistent with their code names as they are with their, it sort of version.

Paul Thurrott (01:51:09):
The thing that would've been Neptune became like millennium edition. It was okay. Neptune was where they were testing these activity centers which made their way into millennium

Leo Laporte (01:51:20):
Edition. Why do companies, do they do that to hide what they're up to? Or did they do that? Because they needed an internal name and they haven't come up with a public name

Paul Thurrott (01:51:29):
Yet. Oh, actually that's by the way. I'm so glad you asked this question because this goes back to the initial discussion we had today because things need a name. <Laugh> yeah. And, and when you don't know what the final brand is, cuz you don't in the beginning, usually mm-hmm <affirmative> you have to give it a, you give it a code name, right? So

Leo Laporte (01:51:45):
You can talk about it when

Paul Thurrott (01:51:46):
You're at launch, you have to have a name. Names are important. Yeah, exactly. My parents

Mary Jo Foley (01:51:51):
Should have codename me. They should have given me until they decided on the

Leo Laporte (01:51:55):
Parents sometimes do that baby girl one or whatever. Sometimes they do that. The hospital that's true. True. The hospital probably called you baby girl Foley or whatever they did.

Mary Jo Foley (01:52:03):
I have a, on my tag.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:04):
I have a friend on Facebook who like, just never says the name of her children on Facebook. She refers to them as the girl and the boy. Yeah. Wow. And it's capital G capital B <laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:52:16):
Yeah. Good news. No one will ever figure out their names. If you keep doing that, Facebook has no idea idea.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:22):
The only people follow you in Facebook are your friends and your family. Of course. What are you doing? It's like, you'll never believe what the boy did this morning. Okay. Who

Mary Jo Foley (01:52:32):
She's talking

Leo Laporte (01:52:33):
About? No, I admire her. You know, yeah. Her

Paul Thurrott (01:52:37):
It's not a mystery novel honey. What's the name? Her

Leo Laporte (01:52:40):
Sick ops are very good. But honestly I don't think it's gonna be of any yeah, I don't. Yeah. Will not avail.

Paul Thurrott (01:52:46):
Yep.

Leo Laporte (01:52:48):
By the way, the show title will be names are important. <Laugh>

Mary Jo Foley (01:52:52):
There you go.

Leo Laporte (01:52:54):
Speaking of which, what a name for our beer pick of the week. Holy moly.

Mary Jo Foley (01:52:59):
Yeah. This is a super interesting story about this beer. JAAS Seve or however you

Paul Thurrott (01:53:08):
Pronounce it's a super Portuguese word for it is veer like, like a beer brewer, right? It must be

Leo Laporte (01:53:14):
Brewer Sova it's like G pronounced Charde. It has Portuguese.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:20):
Yeah. Nothing. Anything that's exactly. Should sound in there somewhere.

Mary Jo Foley (01:53:25):
Sure.

Paul Thurrott (01:53:28):
There absolutely

Mary Jo Foley (01:53:29):
Is Portuguese. The reason this is a Portuguese name is this is a Japanese bur Japanese owned bird.

Leo Laporte (01:53:36):
Oh, here's the confusion

Paul Thurrott (01:53:37):
That follows. Okay. I'm tracking it so far

Leo Laporte (01:53:41):
Now I get it. Okay.

Mary Jo Foley (01:53:42):
So I met, I get to meet the brewers. It's three women who started this in Brazil. They're Japanese or at least they're all fantastic. <Laugh> I, I was very puzzled about this. I'm like a Japanese owned brewery in Brazil and they said, well, Ja, the, one of the biggest communities of Japanese people outside of Japan is in Brazil, which I didn't know

Leo Laporte (01:54:02):
Along with Nazis. So it's, you know what fun,

Paul Thurrott (01:54:06):
Huh? Yeah, that was, that was Argentina.

Leo Laporte (01:54:07):
Oh, Argentina. Just across the way. Okay. Perfect. Close

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:10):
By close

Leo Laporte (01:54:11):
Way. Yeah. What is it about south America?

Paul Thurrott (01:54:12):
Although the boys from Brazil was a thing.

Leo Laporte (01:54:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Wasn't it. Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:16):
Guys, you're throwing me

Leo Laporte (01:54:17):
Off track. Nevermind.

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:18):
Nevermind.

Leo Laporte (01:54:19):
Forget. We said anything continue.

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:21):
Okay. Okay. They make a lot of beers that are all variety of styles, but they use Asian ingredients in them in thoughtful ways

Leo Laporte (01:54:30):
To further confuse you. This is a new England hazy style.

Paul Thurrott (01:54:34):
This is such a, it's such a

Leo Laporte (01:54:36):
Mess made by Japanese people. Excellent. In Brazil. Yes,

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:39):
Exactly. Okay. the beer is called Cato Maru. It's named after the first ship that brought Japanese immigrants to Brazil.

Leo Laporte (01:54:48):
There you go. Wow. There you

Mary Jo Foley (01:54:50):
Go. And new England style IPA that add deco pond, which is a Japanese SATA style orange that is seedless I believe. And they mix that in. So it gives it an orangey flavor mixed with the IPA. It's really nice. Like cuz a lot of IPAs have more like I feel like grape fruity flavors or Melanie flavors and this is orange and it's very nice. So the, you may see this beer if you live in the United States or beers, buy this brewery because they've started doing some contract brewing here and the us and they brewed some of their beers that they brought to New York for this tasting I was at in Chicago. So if you're in the Midwest, you might start seeing these beers or even other places because they're trying to increase their distribution and are going on the road with their beers. Is

Leo Laporte (01:55:38):
There something? Yeah. I mean, there's definitely something typical about a Japanese beer, about a new England beer. Is there something about Brazilian beer that's

Mary Jo Foley (01:55:47):
So Brazil makes a lot of good craft beer. Surprisingly like I've had a few different breweries from Brazil that we've gotten in New York and the beer has been,

Paul Thurrott (01:55:54):
I feel like the entire planet could be described craft brewer. Good craft for right. I mean it's like

Leo Laporte (01:55:59):
Every earth home to craft aliens are gonna come here and say, we heard there was good beer. This

Paul Thurrott (01:56:05):
Was, this was it was Sam Adams that had basically killed off craft beers and craft beers. Now are the biggest thing in the world.

Leo Laporte (01:56:13):
Sam Adams killed craft beers by pretending to be a craft beer.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:16):
Exactly. Right. Yeah.

Mary Jo Foley (01:56:17):
Exactly. Some people consider them craft. But well

Paul Thurrott (01:56:20):
They shouldn't because

Leo Laporte (01:56:21):
Your mask, you produce craft beers.

Mary Jo Foley (01:56:23):
Well, a lot of, a lot of the original craft breweries got bought by big companies. So then the question is like, do you sell, can

Leo Laporte (01:56:29):
Call a craft brewery or Heineken owns Lagunitas. I can't complain. Yep.

Mary Jo Foley (01:56:33):
I know. Yep. Is Louis

Leo Laporte (01:56:35):
And a number of my friends got very wealthy because of it. So again yeah. Can't complain. So

Paul Thurrott (01:56:40):
An Asian style beer made in or designed in Brazil

Leo Laporte (01:56:45):
In the new England

Paul Thurrott (01:56:46):
Style and possibly brewed in Chicago.

Leo Laporte (01:56:49):
Yes. <laugh>

Paul Thurrott (01:56:51):
I mean, it's, it doesn't get any more international

Mary Jo Foley (01:56:55):
Mashup guys.

Paul Thurrott (01:56:55):
And you were talking women brewer names. This is

Leo Laporte (01:56:58):
Women and it's a woman owned brewery. Wow. So this multiple

Paul Thurrott (01:57:02):
Levels,

Leo Laporte (01:57:02):
One beer that has it all.

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:04):
They kind of do all the check boxes, click, click, click. <Laugh> when

Leo Laporte (01:57:08):
You say is that tomorrow as well? You said it all mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Alright. Yep. It looks like it's in the cans. So you might be able to get it. If you look around mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> nice.

Paul Thurrott (01:57:23):
You know what they need is some mashup of Japanese whiskey.

Leo Laporte (01:57:29):
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott (01:57:29):
And beer, right? Mm-Hmm

Leo Laporte (01:57:31):
<Affirmative> yeah. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you can get it at Gordon's fine wines in Walham

Mary Jo Foley (01:57:36):
<Laugh>

Leo Laporte (01:57:36):
Nice. Nice. Sure. There you go. Verified. Yep. So as I think long time winners and dozers know when you get to the beer, you get to the bottom and you drink it all up. Cuz that's it for windows weekly for this fine Wednesday afternoon. <Laugh> so thank you, Mary Jo Foley. Read her stuff on the beautiful new ZD net.com. It's easy to get there. Just go to all about microsoft.com. Paul thre is a blogger, a blogger <laugh> blogger. He writes his blog,

Paul Thurrott (01:58:12):
A writer.

Leo Laporte (01:58:12):
He's your cousin from Boston. He writes your blog there@thre.com.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:18):
I told you my favorite Boston area store is called Atma.

Leo Laporte (01:58:21):
Atma went down to the Atma, got me some canvases and pens. <Laugh> couple of paint brushes. <Laugh> the thera.com site is where you find his day to day writings, by the way, become a premium member. There's great stuff behind the premium paywall. And it's not expensive. And then there's his books which are@leanpug.com field guide to windows 10 currently soon. Right? Paul field guide to windows 11.

Paul Thurrott (01:58:50):
Yes. So I <laugh>, I, I was gonna do this when we were on the boat, I was gonna do it by the end of July. I came back with C, I went to Mexico. I'm like absolutely gonna do this. Came back with food poisoning. Oh Lord. I'm like, yeah. It's it's it's over 200 pages. It's woefully incomplete. It will I? Yes. It's alright. So yeah. As soon as I can, I'm sorry. It's taking so long. No, it's fine. I do work on it. I work on it every week. It's not like I's

Leo Laporte (01:59:16):
Sitting there. I just wanna give you a chance to promote it when it comes out. Cuz people

Paul Thurrott (01:59:20):
Will, oh, I can't wait to just sell it. <Laugh> yeah. You know, but

Leo Laporte (01:59:23):
Yeah. Logical. Yeah, sure.

Paul Thurrott (01:59:26):
Yeah.

Leo Laporte (01:59:26):
We do windows weekly. Every Wednesday. 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM. Eastern time, right after floss, weekly that's 1800 UTC. You can watch us do it live@livedotTWiT.tv. People who watch live like to chat with each other, amongst themselves, as they're watching the two places you can do that are wide open IRC channel. You can actually go there in a browser. And if you want to use an IRC client, the details are there. It's irc.Twit.tv members of club TWiTt. That's seven buck a month thing I was talking about with ad free versions of all of our shows. That's they have a discord as well, which is really a great benefit. We love this discord so much fun. In fact, Stacey's book club is tomorrow. That's gonna be, I have a lot of reading to do between now and then I'm still about five hours from the end of Clara and the sun.

Leo Laporte (02:00:14):
And that discord is another place you can chat about all the shows and all sorts of other topics. If you're interested in club TWiT, TWiTt.tv/club TWiT after the fact on-demand versions of the show available with ads for free to everyone@TWiT.tv slash WW or youtube.com/windows weekly, or maybe the best thing to do, just search for it in your favorite podcast player. That way you can subscribe and get it the minute it's done. And you'll have your copy for listening at your leisure. If you do listen, you know, on demand, you might want to join the on demand conversations that happen at our TWiTt forums, which is TWiT.community or the TWiTt Mastodon instance, which is TWiTt.social. Paul, Mary Jo have a great week. Is it cool? And off a little bit on the east coast there,

Paul Thurrott (02:01:08):
90 degrees now,

Mary Jo Foley (02:01:09):
Yik. <Laugh> not so much.

Leo Laporte (02:01:12):
Okay, well stay as cool as you can. And we will see you next Wednesday on windows weekly. Bye-By