Windows Weekly 961 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Leo Laporte [00:00:00]:
It's time for Windows Weekly. Paul Thurat is in Pennsylvania. Richard Campbell's in Lithuania. We're going to talk about week D, a lot of AI news, Xbox news, and yes, a Lithuanian whiskey. All of that and more coming up next on Windows Weekly.

Leo Laporte [00:00:20]:
Podcasts you love from people you trust.

Paul Thurrott [00:00:24]:
This is.

Leo Laporte [00:00:33]:
This is Windows Weekly with Paul Thurat and Richard Campbell. Episode 961, recorded Wednesday, December 3, 2025. Petroleum exchange expert. It's time for Windows Weekly. Hello, all you winners and your dozers too. Here we are in the beautiful month of December, where for some reason Richard Campbell has evacuated the summertime climate of Australia for the freezing cold of Lithuania.

Richard Campbell [00:01:01]:
Yes, from Brisbane to Lithuania in a week flat. It was fine. I don't know what time it is, but it's fine.

Leo Laporte [00:01:07]:
You must feel like you've gone through the Stargate or something.

Richard Campbell [00:01:10]:
Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's transcendent jet. Like you can't. You just don't even know, right? It's not, not even a thing did you ever do.

Leo Laporte [00:01:18]:
Oh, and by the way, there's Paul Thurat in the middle. He's, he's in beautiful Pennsylvania where he is residing for the Thanksgiving week. Good to see you, Paul from tharat.com.

Paul Thurrott [00:01:29]:
Yeah, it's quite Lithuania, but, you know, nothing is.

Richard Campbell [00:01:35]:
I'd like to be clear. I'm the. I'm in Pennsylvania next week, so I know we're excited.

Paul Thurrott [00:01:41]:
Monday to Makunji.

Leo Laporte [00:01:43]:
Monday a few days time. In five days from now, we're going to do our holiday special. We'll pre record it because we don't want to make those guys work on December 30, but. Or December, I guess it'd be New Year's Eve. But anyway, we're going to play the holiday special then. But we will record it on Monday and you're all invited to watch at noon Pacific, 3pm Eastern. There will be adult beverages. So please.

Leo Laporte [00:02:10]:
Do whatever you think is appropriate. Either bring your own or hide your eyes.

Richard Campbell [00:02:14]:
I don't.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:15]:
I'm definitely bringing my own, but.

Richard Campbell [00:02:19]:
I have some particular selections I need to bring as a housewarming.

Leo Laporte [00:02:23]:
Oh, man, I wish, I wish, I wish I could be there.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:26]:
If I just fly out.

Richard Campbell [00:02:27]:
Could all be in one.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:28]:
We do have three bedrooms. I'm just saying it would really be.

Leo Laporte [00:02:33]:
Kind of a frat.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:35]:
It's like set up like a sitcom, like the, like cue the Bosom Buddies theme song.

Leo Laporte [00:02:42]:
Come and knock on our door. Oh, no, that's Three's Company. That's a different.

Richard Campbell [00:02:45]:
That's a different one.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:46]:
You wouldn't want that around here. It's mostly Danish citizens.

Leo Laporte [00:02:49]:
And I'll be Mr. Roper.

Richard Campbell [00:02:52]:
I think. I think Paul is definitely John Ritter. So I'm good.

Leo Laporte [00:02:55]:
I think so.

Paul Thurrott [00:02:56]:
And that means Suzanne Summers. Clearly.

Paul Thurrott [00:03:01]:
We all have a role to play.

Richard Campbell [00:03:03]:
Yeah, we all have a role to play. So Week D, the best.

Leo Laporte [00:03:10]:
The best week. The week we all look forward to.

Paul Thurrott [00:03:14]:
I have to go back and look at the calendar because. Yeah. So last month was November. Week D was the week of Thanksgiving. There was no update that week. And then the following week, Monday was December 1st, and that's when they decided to ship the Week D update because, you know.

Leo Laporte [00:03:35]:
Take Thanksgiving off in Redmond.

Paul Thurrott [00:03:38]:
I.

Paul Thurrott [00:03:40]:
Yeah, I would say so. Yeah.

Richard Campbell [00:03:42]:
I know a few not guys who definitely, you know, do have to work Thanksgiving.

Richard Campbell [00:03:49]:
And the not guys. Don't knock.

Leo Laporte [00:03:51]:
Guy never knock. Guys always are working.

Richard Campbell [00:03:53]:
No. Who's got the. Who's got the pager? Like, they literally say pager duty.

Paul Thurrott [00:03:59]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:03:59]:
Who's got the beeper?

Richard Campbell [00:04:00]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:04:01]:
It's on you, bud. Good luck. Have fun.

Leo Laporte [00:04:05]:
We don't have that in podcasting. You know, it's not Patriots of podcasting, thank goodness.

Leo Laporte [00:04:13]:
So they did. They. Were they working? It was a week late, so that was because they took some time off, right?

Paul Thurrott [00:04:18]:
I assume so, yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:04:19]:
And you say it's a big one.

Paul Thurrott [00:04:21]:
It is a big one. And we had seen some hints of this in the Devon beta builds and then the release preview builds, which have been at least two. This is another one of those. 24 and 25H2 are exactly the same kind of deals. Literally, in this case, you get the same update, or you will, assuming you install it. And a preview of the patch Tuesday update we're going to get next week, assuming they stick to that schedule. Because, you know, hilarious. Who knows?

Paul Thurrott [00:04:50]:
Yeah. And there is a lot here. So Copilot plus PC it's mostly improvements to existing features. So agent and settings is getting better. There'll be more choices in that dropdown that you can just interact with directly instead of having to go find the setting. The click to do context menu. Like the File Explorer context menu is being streamlined because it's getting too big. Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:05:14]:
Although in this case, they're going to surface some of the more common commands like copy, share, save, etc. Right up front so you can get to those quickly.

Richard Campbell [00:05:24]:
And then they're going to make them into icons that we don't understand because I really like that.

Paul Thurrott [00:05:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. They're going to start with hieroglyphics. And then they're going to move to some kind of a Mesopotamian language of some kind. I don't.

Richard Campbell [00:05:36]:
All Sumerian all the time.

Paul Thurrott [00:05:38]:
Yeah, exactly. It's like, what's the fish again? That share. Okay, that's just weird.

Leo Laporte [00:05:43]:
You know, you got your loaves, you got your fishes. I don't know, it's not that good.

Paul Thurrott [00:05:47]:
How to save or you could cut on your own. I don't know.

Richard Campbell [00:05:50]:
So what's the squiggly line?

Paul Thurrott [00:05:52]:
Yeah, exactly.

Leo Laporte [00:05:54]:
That, my friend, is the River Nile, the mother of us all.

Paul Thurrott [00:05:57]:
Yeah. In this case, the river sticks. So, you know, it's weird because as I go down this list, I'm like, man, I feel like I've been talking about this for months. Like this is just the same stuff over and over again. But now it's coming out to the world, right? So we don't really have this stuff quite yet. Click to do, like a streamline menu. If you are using Click to do and there's a table on the screen, you'll automatically get a context menu with actions specifically for that. One of which will be that Save to Excel thing, which is really nice or potentially nice.

Paul Thurrott [00:06:26]:
I've never experienced it, but that's what I've been trying to play with because you get a table like in a, you know, PDF or a website or whatever. It's. It's kind of a cool feature.

Paul Thurrott [00:06:37]:
The expansion of Windows Studio Effects to like secondary cameras. So if you have a USB camera, it will work with that. This was. Yeah, it was one of those weird things. Before it only worked with the, like the built in camera if you have a laptop or the first camera, whatever. But now we'll work with whatever cameras you have.

Paul Thurrott [00:06:56]:
Search box, placeholder is not a big deal. But like I said, the.

Paul Thurrott [00:07:01]:
File Explorer menus are getting simplified. The.

Paul Thurrott [00:07:05]:
What do you call it? The dark mode experience with File Explorer. And that is getting much better. So today, as most people know, if you use dark mode, you do something like the. The file. What do you call it? Sorry, the settings box, the options box, I guess for File Explorer or you do a file transfer, those things are still light mode, right. So those are going to go dark finally, you know, getting there.

Richard Campbell [00:07:27]:
Calling it ext. Extra dark mode then.

Paul Thurrott [00:07:29]:
Like extra dark mode. Yeah.

Richard Campbell [00:07:32]:
How dark is it?

Paul Thurrott [00:07:33]:
Yeah, it's. It's chocolate mode now. I don't know. Mocha something. I don't know, it's just more consistent.

Richard Campbell [00:07:39]:
How about just consistent?

Paul Thurrott [00:07:40]:
Yeah, consistent without that, like shining light in the dark thing.

Paul Thurrott [00:07:45]:
Yeah, this one's kind of vague, but a couple of months ago they started working on adding categories to the Photos app. So if you use the Photos app to organize your photos, use the categories, you have to enable that uses AI to look at your photos and put them into these categories. Now that that's there, you can use Windows Search, like from Search, like System Search, and search for like a category, and it will actually come up with images right from your photo collection.

Richard Campbell [00:08:11]:
So now, Mr. Theron, if you're going to talk about search working in Windows, I'm going to have to press the buzzer like you got.

Paul Thurrott [00:08:17]:
Sorry if I use the word work, but then I overspoke. They're adapting Search to supposedly do this thing. I've never experienced it, so we'll see.

Richard Campbell [00:08:26]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:08:27]:
And then as far as like normal everyday users who do not have a Copilot plus PC, there's actually some interesting stuff. So, you know, minor changes to things like the Spotlight if you use it with the desktop, the File Explorer stuff, like I said. But they're adding something called Virtual Workspaces in Advanced Settings. So Advanced Settings used to be called, I think Developer Settings or just Developer, if you wanted the Settings app. Let me see if it says here.

Paul Thurrott [00:08:53]:
I can't even find it. Doesn't matter. But it's a hard to find thing. If you use Visual Studio and you're creating a modern app, you have to actually turn on some stuff in Settings and that used to be for developers. Now they're just calling it Advanced Virtual Works. Yeah, right. Because a lot of power users are using this stuff too, right? Sure. These are the types of things where you can right click on an icon in the taskbar and you can add an option for killing the task right from that jump list that pops up.

Paul Thurrott [00:09:21]:
You know, kind of, it's like, you know, type of thing maybe most people don't need, but Power User would want. So that's the type of thing that certainly.

Richard Campbell [00:09:27]:
Power user. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [00:09:29]:
Excuse me. Yeah.

Richard Campbell [00:09:31]:
The weirdest icon on my desktop is a PowerShell script that calls into my wife's machine to mute her audio because she always walks away with her music turned on. By the way, the permissions model for that was impossibly difficult, but I'm very proud of that script.

Paul Thurrott [00:09:49]:
To say that sounds. That's pretty good. I was just looking at third party.

Richard Campbell [00:09:53]:
I'm not going over there to turn stuff down. That's just not a thing.

Paul Thurrott [00:09:56]:
Yeah, that's not funny. I was playing around with the command line Thing today it's a third party tool, but it's for remote access. And I was like, it's interesting. That would have solved that problem too. So virtual workspaces, I've not seen this, but this allows you to enable and disable things like Hyper V and Windows Sandbox. So today you have to, you basically have to search. I think it's if you just go to start search and type features, you get turn Windows features on or off and those things are there. And this is a legacy interface, so they're starting to bring that into settings basically.

Paul Thurrott [00:10:30]:
So that's.

Richard Campbell [00:10:30]:
Yeah, I was hoping it was a call into like Azure Virtual Desktop.

Paul Thurrott [00:10:35]:
Well, you know what? Now that it's getting in there, I mean I could actually see them doing that too. Right? I mean sign in, put your credentials in right there and then have that just be a thing. Like I could see that happening too actually. Yeah. Bunch of changes to sharing, of course, because it's been a month, you know, just small kind of changes all around. You know, Widgets is actually. Widgets is a pretty big change. I don't really use this feature too much but literally for a year now Microsoft has been talking about this notion that the widget board, that thing that appears when you bring up widgets, which has actual widgets and then some kind of a feed on the other side which is like, has gone through different permutations.

Paul Thurrott [00:11:18]:
But the Microsoft Discovery feed essentially is going to allow you to switch between different views. So you can have just widgets, just the feed, swap out the feed with another feed, that kind of thing. So this one I've actually seen on one computer. It's actually pretty nice looking for that's worth. You know, they've only been working on this for like, you know, four or five years now, but it's, it looks like it's finally getting there where it's like, okay, like yeah, still. The stories are all still crap, but.

Paul Thurrott [00:11:45]:
Excuse me, I'm going over. I had the worst. I was like on my deathbed last week.

Leo Laporte [00:11:50]:
Oh, I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott [00:11:51]:
No, it's okay.

Paul Thurrott [00:11:54]:
Drag bar, that stupid UI that probably no one has seen yet. But the idea, really good.

Leo Laporte [00:11:59]:
Drag bar in San Francisco. Oh, that's a different kind of.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:01]:
No, no, different. No, no, no. Okay. Nope, not that one. It's not the Blue Oyster. It's. Which I think is Police Academy.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:11]:
So everyone knows about Snap. You drag Windows around and you get that little bar that comes down. It helps you do the layout stuff. So they have a similar thing for sharing files. But the way you do that is you grab one or more files and then you drag them around, a little bar comes down, you get sharing options. Right. It's just trying to make it more discoverable. I hate it.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:28]:
I wanted to turn this off the second I saw it. Now you can. So in this update they're letting you turn that thing off. And it also supports multiple files now originally only apparently supported one, so that kind of thing. So, you know, the full screen experience is coming to more.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:45]:
Gaming handhelds. It's going to be available on to everyone if you want it very soon as well.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:53]:
And then that's just lots of small changes all over the place.

Paul Thurrott [00:12:57]:
To, you know, fit and finish stuff in the UI. The Prism emulator for Windows 11 unarmed has been updated to support AVX and AVX2, which is one of those things that.

Paul Thurrott [00:13:07]:
Allows for more games to basically come across, etc. Etc. So it's actually, it's, you know, in the context of this year and the various monthly updates we've had, this is, it's a big one. You know, why we.

Paul Thurrott [00:13:24]:
Well, it's just the preview. So there will be. It will be the December when everyone gets it, assuming that happens, by the way, on schedule. It will be the December patch Tuesday, which is about.

Richard Campbell [00:13:34]:
So this is a Christmas present. We just got an early view of the Christmas present.

Paul Thurrott [00:13:40]:
Yeah, it's a Christmas present from someone who hates Christmas and everyone who celebrates it and they just want to keep you busy. I. I suppose there's a. No, there's no chance. I. There's no way they would have shipped this as a preview right now if they weren't going to ship in December.

Richard Campbell [00:13:55]:
Yeah, no, it makes sense. Merry Christmas. I moved your stuff.

Paul Thurrott [00:13:58]:
Yeah. Oh, and by the way, we're going to be off for the rest of the month. I hope nothing goes wrong. Yeah, so, yeah, I know this. The fact that it is the holidays suggests to me that this one's probably going to happen on schedule. Right. They're not going to want to delay this too much further because literally half that company is going to be gone within that. So.

Richard Campbell [00:14:16]:
Yeah, for sure.

Paul Thurrott [00:14:17]:
We'll see. Yeah. So a big one. And then. I'm sorry, I've got so many windows open here, I'm trying to figure out where I'm at. Okay, here we go. So there's that. And I'm just looking at my list, make sure I didn't forget anything.

Paul Thurrott [00:14:30]:
I guess not. And then just because like in the world of Windows, so to speak, other than some stuff that's in the back of the book. There hasn't really been much going on this past week because, you know, there hasn't been much going on anywhere this past week. But.

Richard Campbell [00:14:43]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:14:45]:
Google, a couple of things Android related which kind of factor into the PC space. One, we found out from a job listing that the, the product that's going to be the combination of Android and Chrome OS is called aluminium and it is aluminium, not aluminum.

Leo Laporte [00:15:04]:
Yeah, I noted the extra I in there.

Paul Thurrott [00:15:06]:
Yeah, yeah, it's aluminium os. The theory here is it sounds more like chromium. Right, Aluminum.

Richard Campbell [00:15:16]:
It's not. A UK team working and insisting on.

Leo Laporte [00:15:19]:
The raw aluminum says you've got to call it aluminium.

Paul Thurrott [00:15:23]:
It's an elegant surface texture.

Leo Laporte [00:15:25]:
I want to eat it.

Paul Thurrott [00:15:27]:
I don't know what you call it when the little hands and your hair stand up, but it does that. It's nice. No, it's. So this is, you know, we've, we've been kind of eking out noise about this all year, but this is Android coming to PCs and literally in this job listing, I guess, and elsewhere it says, you know, laptops, desktops, it's going to be in all kinds of code computers. So this next year could be kind of interesting in this space because, you know, we've got the iPad over there picking up multitasking features, background processes, etc. Become pretty elegant for that stuff, but still keeping the simple device like approach. Aluminium or Android has a desktop mode, floating windows multitask. You know, it's, it's, it's going to be, it's kind of interesting.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:10]:
So they're, they're kind of going after that. I assume it's basically. I'm sorry to keep coughing.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:19]:
I'm fine when I'm not on camera.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:22]:
I assume it's basically going to be Android with like desktop version of Chrome. You know what we think of as Chrome os.

Richard Campbell [00:16:28]:
They've been trying to get here for years, right? This has been the goal for forever.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:33]:
Well, yeah, someone jokingly responded to the story and said something like, oh yeah, this is the strategy until they change it five more times. And I'm like, actually, I think this is the fifth change.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:46]:
It was going to be Android, it was going to be Chrome os. Chrome OS is coming to tablets. Then we go back and forth.

Paul Thurrott [00:16:54]:
I'm going to have to get something to drink here.

Richard Campbell [00:16:56]:
But this is what Andy Rubin wanted all along, right?

Leo Laporte [00:16:59]:
The creator of Android from the beginning, he wanted it to be the operating system.

Paul Thurrott [00:17:05]:
If you think about how Google uses it, it is right I mean Chrome OS is kind of the outlier in a way, even though there are Chrome or Android bits in there and then more and more over time. But basing everything on the single code base, you know, kind of makes sense.

Leo Laporte [00:17:21]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [00:17:25]:
I am so sorry. But the other thing that happened was Android or Google released Android 16 QPR2 which is platform release.

Paul Thurrott [00:17:36]:
Quarterly. Platform release two.

Leo Laporte [00:17:39]:
This is that thing they do every quarter, I'm guessing it is with great astute awareness. Is this a feature drop? Is that or. No, this is not.

Paul Thurrott [00:17:51]:
Well, this one's a little different. So quarterly they do the feature drops. Pixeland Android. This one is actually what they call like an SDK update. So it's a minor SDK update. It's the first one they've ever done. Usually this is all once a year, but they change the schedule. They still have quarterly, but the middle quarterly one, if you will.

Paul Thurrott [00:18:11]:
The second one is the one where they actually rev the SDK as well. So it's actually a target for developers. This quarterly update scheme that they have is. Seems good to me in the sense that Android, like iOS, like Windows, has monthly updates, but they're mostly just security updates. Right. But shipping features less often, you know, outside of apps. Not a horrible idea. And I, I think, you know, Android, there's a lot, there is a lot of churn, but compared to Windows, you know, it's not even close.

Paul Thurrott [00:18:47]:
Isn't there?

Leo Laporte [00:18:48]:
There's kind of a history updates. They did update.

Richard Campbell [00:18:50]:
I think they're adopting Microsoft naming strategies. Right, Go ahead.

Paul Thurrott [00:18:57]:
Yeah, I mean, well, they look, they've been doing this for over almost 25 years now. Right. Windows Update I think was roughly sometime in the XP time frame maybe. So it's probably about 25 years and they finally getting the names right. I mean, okay, that's good.

Paul Thurrott [00:19:16]:
I think it was, I don't know if it was Dave from YouTube or somebody made the point that.

Paul Thurrott [00:19:25]:
Someone, I don't remember who made his point, but it was based. No, it was Linus Torvalds actually made the point this in an interview this week. He said, you know, everyone kind of dumps on Windows for the blue screen and everything. But he's like, actually that's the right way to handle those kind of errors. And he said, I guarantee you, based on my experience working on Linux, that most of those things are caused by bad hardware, not from the os.

Leo Laporte [00:19:45]:
That's right.

Paul Thurrott [00:19:46]:
Something you can't. Microsoft always gets dumped on. But it's like, yep, you did something wrong with bailing is the right approach. You know.

Richard Campbell [00:19:54]:
Yeah. So you also have chosen the path to support the largest diversity of hardware and so you're going to have more problems.

Paul Thurrott [00:20:03]:
Yeah, I made, I mean, I made this observation in the mid-90s. Someone was talking about this literally at a party in San Francisco. Some guy was saying, you know, Apple has the best engineers in the world, blah, blah, mic. Really? Really. With the three computers they make, they, they get those things running every day. That's great. I'm like, Microsoft makes Windows run on a billion possible permutations of hardware configurations. The fact that this thing boots up at all is a miracle of computer science.

Paul Thurrott [00:20:30]:
I mean, you know, I'm like, I'm like whatever. But I mean, it's nice having a known quantity, you know, to target. But when you, when the thing you're targeting is literally hardware abstraction, could be anything, you know, that's what your results are going to be too.

Leo Laporte [00:20:48]:
Let's take a little time out and we will continue. Windows Weekly is live from Vilnius in Makunji.

Paul Thurrott [00:20:56]:
Yep. Sister cities, you know, bound by tragedy.

Leo Laporte [00:21:04]:
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Richard Campbell [00:25:21]:
Well, wow.

Leo Laporte [00:25:22]:
Sort of a Microsoft guy. Sort of 16 years at Google, six months at Microsoft. But you know I think I've worked.

Paul Thurrott [00:25:29]:
For Microsoft more than he has.

Leo Laporte [00:25:30]:
But yeah, yeah, it's a big story. Do you know this guy Subramaniam?

Paul Thurrott [00:25:36]:
No, nobody does so well. Yeah, I'm surprised no one. And I wrote about this quickly the other night because it was nothing had happened all day and then suddenly between dinner and the time went to bed. There were three big stories. That was one of them. But this, he's been on the outs for a while. Right. So they failed with conversational Siri.

Leo Laporte [00:25:57]:
Yeah, I think he's taken the blame for that.

Paul Thurrott [00:25:58]:
They took that away from him. Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:26:02]:
Still, you know, the whole Apple intelligence thing, it's fine like it's fine for what it is but it just hasn't really taken the world.

Leo Laporte [00:26:09]:
It's not competitive with all the other tools including.

Paul Thurrott [00:26:11]:
No, no. And you know, and right now they just have a handoff to chat GBT which is fairly inelegant and, and whatever. But he was one of the big, you know, he was a big snag for them from Google at the time. 2018 I think. Oh man. And that was a big story when it happened Google or Apple rather after a trial of a few months did something that they'd never done under Steve, under Tim Cook rather where there was just an all up I org rather than having that be part of different parts of the company and it just didn't work. And so they're going back to their more for them traditional model. But.

Richard Campbell [00:26:51]:
Yeah, Siri had been in trouble for a while.

Paul Thurrott [00:26:53]:
Right.

Richard Campbell [00:26:54]:
Like it's so rare for us to get any sight into Apple's internal conflicts but whatever was going on between AI and Siri was so disastrous. There were multiple, multiple stories.

Paul Thurrott [00:27:06]:
I just think that this has been going on forever really. I mean they were first out the door with this kind of a digital assistant at least from like a big tech type company. I mean I know they purchased the company that did it but you know they came to market with the first, everyone else basically copied them and then they let it sit forever, you know and I this one I'm a little rough on but I feel like the guy or guys who came over from you know that did. Siri originally left the company in some dispute because it was like you aren't doing anything with this. What are you doing? Like it has to keep improving and it just wasn't happening and. Yeah, and so it's proven difficult to adapt I guess to this stuff. But I feel like in the next four months, ish, this will be behind us and there'll be some Gemini based Siri thing that will probably be pretty good, you know, honestly.

Richard Campbell [00:28:00]:
But you know, Gemini 3 landed very well.

Paul Thurrott [00:28:04]:
Yes, it did well.

Leo Laporte [00:28:05]:
And that's where this guy came from originally. He was 16 years at Google and was I think a product manager for Gemini. So that's, it makes sense they'd hire this guy to kind of manage the relationship if this is going to be your future.

Paul Thurrott [00:28:20]:
But the part of the story that I haven't seen reported on a lot that to me is a big part of this is Apple has lost a lot of high level AI execs to other companies like OpenAI especially, and they've been very, it's, this is a big problem for them internally. So who's left? Like you need to replace this guy who's not shown up. Everyone else is like taking off for other companies and it's like basically you have to poach somebody who just accepted a job at Microsoft that I've never heard of. Not that that means too much. I mean I'm not super invested in this space but like I don't know that there are any big names left. Yeah, that, that are well known, you know, to the outside world or whatever. So as far as I'm concerned, this person is kind of an unknown. But I.

Paul Thurrott [00:29:10]:
I don't, I, I mean, I think at this point the, the, the thing they're looking for maybe is not one of those top level Suleiman type guys, but rather like listen, you're going to be reporting to Craig Federighi basically. Right. Or whatever. Like I, I think he actually does report directly to Tim Cook, but he's, you know, you're, you're, you have to work with these things. Like you can't just do, you can't. We're just going to go off and make vague foundational models and you know, we promised something like almost two years ago now we kind of got to show up with that eventually. Could you make that happen? You know, they need someone who can work and get done, you know, get this thing done. So we'll see, we'll see what comes of it.

Paul Thurrott [00:29:51]:
But it is kind of interesting.

Paul Thurrott [00:29:55]:
Somehow over the past week I ended up writing at least, well two at least anyway. But like Kind of editorials about AI which I did not go into this meaning to do. But I saw a headline, I think it was late last week, probably where Tim Swinney had, on. Just on Twitter, had something in response to something else someone had tweeted, had said something like, yeah, we got to get rid of this made with AI thing for games because I guess Steam is, you know, is requiring that if you use AI to create a game, you have to. It's going to have this label on it like it's some kind of like a. Like it has high fructose corn syrup.

Leo Laporte [00:30:30]:
In it or something like satanic markings.

Paul Thurrott [00:30:33]:
Yeah. And it's like Guy, he's like, guys, all games are going to be made with AI obviously. And it's like, yeah, actually that's true. Obviously. Why not Obviously true?

Leo Laporte [00:30:43]:
Right?

Paul Thurrott [00:30:43]:
Like you would be stupid. I mean. No, I'm sorry, that's not fair. Some games, I guess you will have these handcrafted, you know, kind of artisanal games, I guess. But like as far as, like Call of Duty, Fortnite, you know, whatever, AI is going to be part of it, you know, that's.

Leo Laporte [00:30:58]:
Well, and.

Richard Campbell [00:30:58]:
And made with is such a vague concept. Like what is the. What purity are you going for here? Are you just going to organize electrons with tweezers? Like it's. Is that what you're doing?

Paul Thurrott [00:31:08]:
It's like, how come there's a spelling mistake in this million dollar game you just made? Like we didn't use AI Steam wouldn't let us, couldn't spell check it. You know.

Leo Laporte [00:31:18]:
It'S a visceral reaction to AI talked to my 22 year old, I 23 now, happy birthday. And he said, oh yeah, we don't use. I won't play any game with AI in it. And it's just a visceral reaction.

Paul Thurrott [00:31:30]:
It's just such a weird.

Leo Laporte [00:31:31]:
The world is. There's a schism.

Richard Campbell [00:31:33]:
How would you know?

Paul Thurrott [00:31:35]:
Well, when I was.

Leo Laporte [00:31:36]:
That's all that aside. It's not that. It's not about all that. It's not rational, it's emotional. It's like I don't. AI scares me. It's creepy. I don't want to have anything to do with it.

Paul Thurrott [00:31:45]:
This is the wrong react. This is. We have this. The word insertification, right. Is a. It's such a beautiful word because you hear it and you're like, yeah, I know what this is exactly. I see it everywhere. Like it's perfect.

Paul Thurrott [00:31:57]:
And unfortunately in the AI space, it's the other one in a Way. But is this turn like AI Slop? And it's just like the easiest thing to throw. It's just AI Slop, you know? Yeah, okay. Because humans never make mistakes. But, you know, I. I have this really strong memory of this. Like, in the late 1980s, the. I don't know if it was in part of Deluxe Paint.

Paul Thurrott [00:32:18]:
It was like the guys that made Deluxe Paint basically came up with this program on the Amiga that allowed you to do animation, but it was like that cel animation. Like, back in the day, Disney would have to draw every frame, 60 frames a second. Right. Or whatever it was 24. Make the mouse run across the screen. And the way this thing worked is like every fifth or tenth or every second, it would draw the things between the two so you didn't have to do all of it.

Leo Laporte [00:32:45]:
Right?

Paul Thurrott [00:32:45]:
And it was like, yep, this is clearly the way forward. But, you know, at that time, there were. It's just we. Not as vocal then. We weren't all connected, but there were people back then going, oh, no, I'm never going to watch any animation that isn't hand drawn. That's. That's, you know, that's crap. And it's like, what do you.

Paul Thurrott [00:33:02]:
We just invented animation two weeks ago. Like, relax. You know, like, video games have only been around for 45 years. Like, give it a second. Like, of course, yeah. You're going to use technology to improve this thing. Like, of course, yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:33:19]:
You and I know that.

Richard Campbell [00:33:19]:
I don't know. I like my. I wouldn't believe my Permian tweezer strategy.

Leo Laporte [00:33:24]:
What's that? Oh, with the bits? Yeah, just.

Richard Campbell [00:33:27]:
Yeah, we're just going to pick up. We're going to pick up each electron and we're going to assemble them ourselves.

Leo Laporte [00:33:31]:
I think it's apparent that AI is going to be around everywhere. I mean, even in music.

Paul Thurrott [00:33:36]:
I just, like, like, let's get outraged.

Leo Laporte [00:33:39]:
I don't think we need to get in a fight about it. If people don't like it, that's fine and you don't have to defend it. It's just. It is going to happen. It's obviously going to happen.

Richard Campbell [00:33:49]:
Come on.

Paul Thurrott [00:33:49]:
This is like, is it real or is it Photoshopped?

Leo Laporte [00:33:53]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:33:53]:
But before that there was like, airbrushing and before that there was just photography. And like, seriously, like, of course this technology evolves. People are going to use it, they're going to make things better with it, whatever. Yeah. Will there be crap? Yeah, of course. I mean, but for every, you know, there are these, like, early. Like, if you're into. I don't know what you call this, but like in the 1980s, they made, it was supposed to be the first of two parts.

Paul Thurrott [00:34:21]:
They only made one part, but it was like a Lord of the Rings movie that was animated, but it was like rotoscope or something. They had.

Richard Campbell [00:34:28]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [00:34:29]:
And, and that, you know, look at that today and you're like, okay, this is kind of unique and weird, but it's not great. But then things like Roger Rabbit happened, all the Pixar movies and blah, blah, blah, whatever. And I don't know that anyone would ever look at something just like Toy Story, which is now itself 30 years old, by the way. Right? Ish. Yeah, over 30 years, and be like, oh, that's crap. That's not hand drawn animation. You know, that's garbage. It's like, guys like, come on.

Paul Thurrott [00:34:56]:
I mean, there's a place for it, it's fine. But video games are just obvious. You know, there was a headline, you know, a month or so ago, it was like, oh, someone's figured out that like they probably use some AI assets in Battlefield 6. Like, you think, you think they spent a billion bucks in this thing and didn't want to get it? Like, come on. Like, of course, to me, that's where it goes.

Paul Thurrott [00:35:22]:
This is where you want it. It's going to make the industry.

Richard Campbell [00:35:25]:
Well, we've been talking about how expensive it is to make games, how it's limited, what games can be made.

Richard Campbell [00:35:33]:
There's always been automation tools to allow them to do more. This is another generation of automation.

Paul Thurrott [00:35:41]:
This is what Microsoft used to be good at. And you might be able to argue that they still are. But it's like the demo, the democratization of technology, right? That it's not just some kind of white lab suit up in a tower bequeathing us with some, you know, capability. We're going to give it to everybody, you know, and the fact that we can walk around with an iPhone or whatever phone we have and make like a Hollywood quality movie essentially. I mean, I obviously need other tools and skills and whatever, but, you know, this is, this opens up this capability to more and more people and people who might not have ever come to light now can be creators in that way. And AI is exactly this. It's a. But it's, it's this but for like everything, you know.

Paul Thurrott [00:36:30]:
So I, I just, like, it's just like made with AI. Like we're gonna but like put the scarlet AI letter on your chest, you know, because you, you didn't make it all yourself, you jerk. You know, like you cut some corners, you know, like you wanted to see your family or something over the holidays. Lazy jerk. You know, like, of course you're going to use AI Like I, I wouldn't.

Leo Laporte [00:36:51]:
I wouldn't dismiss the reaction though, because I mean, look what happened last year at the Academy Awards. The brutalist used AI very minorly to tweak the Hungarian accents. And I think the Academy, it did, it was nominated for an Oscar but didn't have a chance of winning one because people were so upset about that. So don't just. I mean, I agree with you, but this, but this reaction is not going to.

Paul Thurrott [00:37:15]:
The reaction is very human. The problem is it's, it's the same reaction we always like, remember when.

Leo Laporte [00:37:22]:
I know that. But, but you, but don't dismiss it because it's got power behind it. I'm just saying.

Paul Thurrott [00:37:28]:
Well, initially the thing that has more power behind it is the tsunami of AI that's going to hit these people and wash them away. So, you know, like, you can complain all you want, but it's. I'm sorry, it's happening. OK know, Sometime in the late 90s, early 2000s, there was that movie. Oh brother, we're out there. You know, great movie. George Clooney, etc. It is, it's striking to this day to watch this movie because it has such a yellow kind of a tone to it.

Paul Thurrott [00:37:53]:
They were trying to make it look like that era and not like it really like because the world was yellow though. Yeah, it's a sepia kind of a. It makes it look old timey basically. Right? Yeah. And I don't know that they called that AI at the time, but it was whatever you color grading, however they do it, whatever.

Leo Laporte [00:38:12]:
But that's actually the Godfather. They took the print, the one and only, and dragged it through T to give it that kind of color. And the DP at the time said, I know this is risky because this is the only copy of this movie, but this is what.

Paul Thurrott [00:38:33]:
So were there people boycotting tea or was that just from the 1600s.

Paul Thurrott [00:38:38]:
Whatever the year that was. I, I just don't. I.

Leo Laporte [00:38:43]:
People resist technology, but it eventually happens. I don't know if the debate is over whether it's better or not. I mean, I think humans might have some merit in saying, you know, we don't want too much of our creativity usurped by machines. I think in gaming there's a lot of stuff. You were saying, Richard, in the discord, that NPCs could get a lot better with some, that's for sure. True. I mean, how many times did you have, I was an adventurer like you, but I got an arrow through the knee.

Paul Thurrott [00:39:11]:
You know, I read a.

Leo Laporte [00:39:12]:
You don't need to hear that again.

Paul Thurrott [00:39:13]:
And again and again. When, when the latest Call of Duty came out, they were, you know, promoting it as they would, right? And so one of the things they were promoting was like, we're launching with more multiplayer levels than we've launched with ever or whatever or in a long time. And I looked it up and it was like there were two more than last year. Like it wasn't even that much more. But I'm like, okay. But they were talking about like they have the people who make these games, these particular levels, like the types of things you would play multiplayer have these design patterns and I don't remember the names of them, but it's basically like a three route deal. Like there's a middle route and then the side routes guys come in and you have flanking and things and you know, guys are all over the place. And when that works, there's a magic to it.

Paul Thurrott [00:39:56]:
And if you play that game or any other game where this works out really well, every once in a while you run into a level where you're like, oh my God, like they, this, they really nailed it with this thing. Like people love it when it comes up as a choice. Everyone's like, yep, we're playing this one. This is great. You know, and then there are the ones that fail, right? I mean, some aren't as good, but that's the type of thing that AI would be good at, right? You have 25 years of history of maps, like probably maybe thousands at this point of maps, you could, you have all the data from how many people played and how long and blah, blah, blah, whatever it was, you could put it in your little AI machine and be like, make more of this stuff, you know, right? This is what AI is great at. And right now, to my knowledge, that's not happening. Right? I mean it should be, I mean that should be what we're doing. Like it seems like that's, that's a great use of AI for game making.

Paul Thurrott [00:40:51]:
So we'll see. I, I, obviously there'll be, you know, setbacks and there'll be bad things and whatever, but I, I, I don't know. I mean the, even like Leo was talking about this, you know, what about humanity and creativity and everything? And it's like, I feel like this is the argument people were having when photography occurred it's like, well, hold on a second. We have these people that make oil paintings. They're masters. Like they're why we're going to replace these with this little snapshoty thing. Like I, I'm, I'm sure, like we just didn't have the Internet.

Leo Laporte [00:41:24]:
There's a difference. I'll tell you the difference.

Paul Thurrott [00:41:26]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [00:41:27]:
There's still a human involved in the photographic process. There's no human involved in some of this AI stuff. Right. It's, it's just generated.

Paul Thurrott [00:41:36]:
What's the. So I mean, how many sports games have been called or have been decided by a bad call? Well, you know, how many airline disasters.

Leo Laporte [00:41:43]:
I'm not disagreeing that there's an appropriate use of it.

Leo Laporte [00:41:47]:
But I think there's also an inappropriate use of it. And, and I think that that's where we're learning is what's, what's acceptable.

Paul Thurrott [00:41:54]:
So what's an inacceptible use of AI today?

Leo Laporte [00:41:56]:
Would you say replacing the creativity of a human with a very generic form of creativity created by a machine?

Paul Thurrott [00:42:03]:
Well, what if it was better though? I mean like, like at some point if it's not so generic?

Leo Laporte [00:42:10]:
Well, this is the debate in music right now. I mean Spotify, at least I got a ride from an Uber driver who said, you know, this is just my sideline. I actually, I make an album a week with Suno. He's not a musician.

Richard Campbell [00:42:22]:
Wow.

Leo Laporte [00:42:23]:
He makes an album a week which he uploads to Spotify. He says, I'm making a few hundred dollars a month now, but all it takes is one to hit and I won't have to drive anymore. And he is one of a army of thousands people doing this. And at this. I think we're at the tipping point now with music where you probably the chances are good you're listening to more artificial.

Paul Thurrott [00:42:45]:
Listen guys, we're all kind of the same age here, right? I think we can all agree most of the music that's out today is crap. So it's like when you tell me that we're going to replace an auto tuned non professional singer with an AI thing. I mean like this is six, one half dozen. As far as I'm concerned, music has been fake for a long time. Yeah. By the way, someone asks someone, I saw this somewhere in the thing. Someone said, well who did, who did the. Yeah, who did photography put out of work? Who cares? You don't know who those people, they were painters.

Paul Thurrott [00:43:17]:
But, but no, but, but I have an answer to that, which is who does the AI Image generator put out of work. Right. Because the example I've always used is I, I write several articles a day on most days. I don't use AI to generate an image for every single one of them, but I could very easily. And the benefit of that is I have a unique image that no one else is going to have. It's not like a stock photography thing. I know graphic artists, I cannot afford to pay them to do this work. None of them could generate four images within seconds of me asking them then say, one of those is pretty good, but change it like this and go through that process for five or 10 minutes and then create an image that is something new.

Richard Campbell [00:44:04]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:44:05]:
So that's not a job being replaced. I'm not. There's. My graphic artist friends are not being put out of work. They were never getting that job. That job did not exist. So this is creating new opportunities. Like this is a.

Paul Thurrott [00:44:20]:
You know, I've said this, AI, you know, fundamentally like saves you time, but the other way to say that is like, fundamentally it also saves you money. And then there's this nexus of saving time and money where something new is created. So you're saving time, money and you're doing this thing that could never have been done before. And that's what photography enabled, by the way. And as it improved over time, like air travel improved over time and it turns into this thing that was rare and you would. No one knew what it was A guy. You'd have to hold the thing steady for a long time and whatever. Everyone had to stay still.

Paul Thurrott [00:44:52]:
You know, it's snip, snip, snip, snip. And now we have all. Everyone has cameras and, you know, who do care. We don't care anymore. It's 150 years later, we've stopped caring about that. We don't care about the stagecoach driver, we don't care about the cobbler, we don't care about the shoesmith. We don't. Which is a cop, whatever.

Paul Thurrott [00:45:10]:
You know, like this is. That's not the point. Like if, if the, if the thing. The way things are now is the best they've ever been.

Paul Thurrott [00:45:20]:
I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Like, this is like I. The store. One of the stories I told was I used to work in a bank and people, I'm thinking about this now, used to see people standing in line with paper checks. And those people were one of two people. They were people who were paid by check, who did not have their own accounts anywhere else and were had to go to the drawing bank to cash the check, because the check is from that bank, so they could cash it. They show their id, they get their money. The other group was old people. Even though we had had ATM machines in that bank for 25 years, by the late 1980s, they were never going to use an ATM.

Paul Thurrott [00:45:59]:
They were old, and they were like, I need to talk to a person. I have to do my banking. We're going to chat a little bit. We're going to keep the people behind me waiting, yada, yada. And we all stood in line. So do we not move past this? Because those jobs, you know, go away because there are no tellers anymore. There probably some tellers, right? But you don't have as much of a need for them anymore because, well died. And no one gets paid by check anymore.

Paul Thurrott [00:46:24]:
You know, I made the case the other day, like, we were at the farmer's market last weekend. Didn't have a dollar, we didn't have a cent. We. We gave some money to a homeless charity. We bought some apples, we bought some peanut butter. And all of those things were like Venmo or whatever. Venmo. Something like Venmo.

Paul Thurrott [00:46:43]:
Every one of them, you know, micropayments.

Richard Campbell [00:46:47]:
We had the modern version of. This is what radiology, you know, Jeff Hinton, the one of the godfathers, back in 2016, after they'd beaten Imagenet, you know, they now made it so that phones could recognize images. It was done. He said, radiology is a dead job. Like, there's no point in being it anymore. And the reality is the opposite has happened.

Paul Thurrott [00:47:09]:
That, yeah, you need someone's radio.

Richard Campbell [00:47:12]:
Yeah. And the reality is there's 700 models now approved by the FDA for evaluating radiological images, and the radiologists are doing three times as many recommendations as they used to do. And there's demand for more. Like the. Lowering the. Making it easier to do medical scanning has meant far more medical scans, and there's demand for even more. So, you know, that market simply expands.

Paul Thurrott [00:47:37]:
We. So we live next to New Jersey, and New Jersey is either the only or one of the only places in the world that mandates that gas stations have to have attendance. So every time I get gas in New Jersey, I forget this, because that's not been the case anywhere that I've ever been in a long, long time. And you get out of your car and you go over to the pump, and the guy's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing there?

Leo Laporte [00:48:00]:
What are you doing?

Paul Thurrott [00:48:01]:
Certified petroleum exchange expert. What are you doing? You know, like, I remember when we were first married, I. We were staying at my wife's parents house one weekend and I forgot my toothbrush and I was like, well, I go to the supermarket and buy one, whatever. So I drove over there, going to this giant empty store at night. No one is. I didn't see a human being the whole time I was there. So I walked into the belly of this thing, grabbed a single toothbrush, walked up to the front, snow in there. And I had my first experience.

Paul Thurrott [00:48:30]:
Self checkout, right. First time ever. So this might have been, well, very early 1990s, so a long time ago, 35 years ago. And I listen, I know a little bit about technology. I've always been pretty good with it. I. This thing befuddled me. I was almost crying by the time I got out of there.

Paul Thurrott [00:48:45]:
I finally figured it out. It took me a long time. If there had been a human being, I would have asked for help. I would have let them do it. I was like, I really struggled with this. And I came back and they were like, what took so long? And I'm like, I don't want to talk about this right now. I need some time, you know, and if you would ask me right then, like, should we do this? The self checker? This is the future, right? Nope. No.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:08]:
We need to have people manning those things all the time. We need human beings. If you'd asked me then today, you know, depending on what it is, I guess, but like, I'd rather just go up be and get the hell out of there. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to wait in a line. I don't want, you know, like it's things.

Leo Laporte [00:49:24]:
You get gas on your hands.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:26]:
I do get on my hands sometimes. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:49:29]:
And that's true. You could blow yourself up if you picked up your cell phone.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:33]:
All kinds of things could go wrong. But, you know.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:38]:
Do you trust yourself more than you trust the idiot who has to work at a gas station? I, like, I don't know, Like I just, you know. Yeah, I don't know.

Leo Laporte [00:49:45]:
I think you're trained. What did you train for? Petroleum transfer.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:51]:
Certified.

Leo Laporte [00:49:52]:
I know what I'm doing.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:53]:
Expert.

Leo Laporte [00:49:53]:
I have 18 hours of experience under my belt.

Paul Thurrott [00:49:56]:
What does that mean? Like, I put the gas in the car. I see.

Paul Thurrott [00:50:00]:
We would say your job is here, Bob.

Paul Thurrott [00:50:06]:
Middleman is what I'm hearing.

Leo Laporte [00:50:07]:
I think though, that I have people skills.

Paul Thurrott [00:50:11]:
Yeah, yeah, people skills, exactly.

Leo Laporte [00:50:18]:
I think that though it would look, I go down on both sides of this one But I think it's not unreasonable to say that there should be and are things that AI is good at and should be allowed to do. But then there are things. It's that old tweet from a famous writer who said.

Leo Laporte [00:50:38]:
I don't want AI to write my novels and make my music for me. I want it to, to do the stuff I don't want to do so I have more time to write novels and make music.

Paul Thurrott [00:50:47]:
Right. Everyone has different skills. Right. One of the things that always blew my mind was like, a writer like Stephen King, who writes these thousand page books, you know, back in the 1980s, especially back when he would have been doing this on a word processor, which at the time was probably like a sign of the devil from the people who were still working on mechanical typewriters, however they were writing their books. And he never took notes about the characters. So you would, like, when he got back to them, like, there would be all these inter, you know, weaving storylines, and it's like, all right, so where's Bob now? It's like, let me go back in my notes. He never did that. He just wrote the stories.

Paul Thurrott [00:51:21]:
Right. And so, you know, editors would have to read these things and be like, actually, the timeline here doesn't make sense. Or this, the moon isn't where it would be where you said it or whatever it is. Right. So you have to check that stuff. Right. And I feel like that's something AI would be good at. Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:51:35]:
Just make sure this makes conceptual sense, you know, or whatever. That's like a writer could use that kind of a.

Leo Laporte [00:51:43]:
Here's, here's the quote. I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I can do art and writing, not for AI to do my art and writing so that I can do my laundry and dishes.

Paul Thurrott [00:51:54]:
Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, sure. No, that's a good one. That's a great quote, by the way.

Leo Laporte [00:51:59]:
Joanna Machevsky.

Paul Thurrott [00:52:00]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:52:00]:
Maczevsky.

Paul Thurrott [00:52:01]:
Yeah. Video game enthusiasts would like more time to do nothing. That's weird. So I don't know. No, but I.

Richard Campbell [00:52:08]:
Look, loading a dishwasher is hard.

Paul Thurrott [00:52:11]:
It's. No, unloading a dishwasher is terrible. If you, if we didn't call this AI if we just said technology, right. This conversation would be a little bit different because we're very comfortable with the fact that we use technology for everything. That dishwasher we're talking about has a computer in it, you know? You know, like, I, I. There's something. AI is like, almost tainted, you know, it is it's partially tainted, like, for those of us in the know. And by that I mean guys like you and me, not because we're, like, super smart about AI, but we've been dealing with the kind of marketing of AI for a long time.

Paul Thurrott [00:52:51]:
You know, Microsoft has been talking up AI or Apple has been talking up machine learning or whatever it is for years and years, and now it's, you know, exploded. So now we're like, geez, what's. What's happening here? You know, you. You have. There is this visual reaction to it. It's like. I thought it was just spell checking. No, no, no, that's AI.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:09]:
That's. And you're like.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:13]:
I don't know.

Leo Laporte [00:53:14]:
I don't know.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:15]:
What's a. Like, I think AI just has a. It gets a bad rap, you know?

Leo Laporte [00:53:19]:
Oh, it definitely does. We've got a guy coming up on intelligent Machines. He's a former spy.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:24]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [00:53:24]:
And he says that soon it'll be machines spying on machines, and we all need to become spies in the future. Yeah, it's a very interesting premise. So that'll be a fun conversation.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:37]:
This is like a Daniel Suarez wet dream. You know, it is going to go. This is going to. Yeah, he's. He's set for life now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Richard Campbell [00:53:46]:
All those storylines.

Leo Laporte [00:53:48]:
I should. I should. I should talk to Dan, see what he's like.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:50]:
Because, like, you, you wrote these stories 10 years ago, this futuristic and insane, and now it's like, yeah, they're almost tame by comparison, you know?

Richard Campbell [00:53:59]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [00:53:59]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [00:54:00]:
Let's take a little break. More to come. You're watching Windows Weekly, Paul Thurat and Richard Campbell. Our show today, brought to you by a well rested Leo laporte. Thanks to my Helix Sleep mattress. Love my Helix Sleep. Are you getting ready for the holiday hosting season? You said you have extra bedrooms, Paul.

Leo Laporte [00:54:24]:
Maybe you want to take a look at improving the mattresses and all of those.

Paul Thurrott [00:54:28]:
I'd like to improve my mattress.

Leo Laporte [00:54:30]:
Well, you know, I was thinking about this last night as I lay on my Helix Sleep.

Paul Thurrott [00:54:35]:
I've lost so much sleep this week.

Leo Laporte [00:54:36]:
Leo, this is such an important part of your life. Do not stint. Sleeping is essential. So don't forget when you're shopping for everyone else this season to give yourself a little something. A great night's sleep with a new Helix mattress. This is the one thing you don't want to stint on. And the good news is there's a Helix just right for you. No more night sweats, no more back pain, no motion transfer.

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Rest assured your Helix mattress. Our Helix mattress is assembled and packaged and shipped from the fresh air of Arizona within days of placing your order. By the way, they make them to order so it is ready to go. You know, it smells great. And we did this before we bought our Helix Sleep. Take the Helix Sleep quiz which you know, different types of sleep deserve different kinds of mattresses. Again, you wouldn't just go and buy a shoe of any size. You will get a shoe that is comfortable, that fits.

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Leo Laporte [00:56:39]:
Yes, I did. I measured it with my oral ring. Noticeable, in fact. Participants on average achieve 25 more minutes of deep sleep a night. That's significant.

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And that's the sleep that cleans out, you know, the brain, all the junk in the brain. Participants on average achieve 39 more minutes of overall sleep per night. Less tossing and turning, less wakeful minutes, more time comfy in bed, time and time again. Helix Sleep is the most awarded mattress brand wired. I'll give you an example. Just tested 100 plus bed in a box mattresses and their top pick was the Helix Midnight Luxe hybrid as the best bed you can buy online. The best bed you can buy online, by the way, that's the one we got. Forbes had tested 90 beds so far this year to find the very best mattress for every sleeper.

Leo Laporte [00:57:30]:
They said again, as their top pick, the Helix Midnight Lux. That's what we sleep on. And I gotta tell you, I pick it too. Go to helixsleep.com windows right now, 27% off site wide during the cyber Monday sale. Best of web, that's helixsleep.com windows for 27% off of the Cyber Monday sale. Best of Web. The offer ends December 9th. Make sure you enter our show name when you buy into the post purchase survey.

Leo Laporte [00:58:00]:
That way we get credit. They know we send you. And if you're listening, after this sale, don't worry, Check them out. There's always great deals@helixsleep.com Windows helixsleep.com Windows do not sleep on a bed made of money.

Leo Laporte [00:58:18]:
That is not a good idea, Keith.

Paul Thurrott [00:58:20]:
Yeah, especially if it's coins.

Paul Thurrott [00:58:23]:
Get a healing, super comfortable common sense, people. Yes.

Leo Laporte [00:58:29]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [00:58:32]:
See, did you see that Sam Altman? There was a rumor going around somebody look at the source code of the Android version of the OpenAI ChatGPT app and saw code that implied there's going to be ads. So I think, of course there is. Yeah, but that's. Of course we know that's coming. Well, shortly thereafter, you saw the code red memo from Sam Altman said, hold on.

Leo Laporte [00:58:57]:
Wait a minute. I think it's interesting. What is it? Why did. What's the reason for this panic?

Paul Thurrott [00:59:07]:
Well, we've made this case before on the show. Like OpenAI or ChatGPT is like the Kleenex of AI, right?

Leo Laporte [00:59:15]:
It's the one everybody uses.

Paul Thurrott [00:59:16]:
Yeah, everyone uses it. It's a bizarre example of something very technical that normal people are actually paying for. I don't even know how they found out about it. You know, it's. It's very interesting. It's. It must be word of mouth essentially. Like, yeah, yeah, these people are not reading tech blogs, you know, whatever.

Leo Laporte [00:59:33]:
But they found out somehow.

Paul Thurrott [00:59:34]:
They found it and they were like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Yep. I want to pay for this. Like, that's a, that's rare. I mean, it's really neat. And they, that's just been, I don't. Lucky isn't even not fair to them. I mean, they, whatever.

Leo Laporte [00:59:45]:
They have market share, that's for sure.

Paul Thurrott [00:59:47]:
Yeah, yeah. But the other case we've made a bunch of times was, you know, we've got these companies and Google may be the most dangerous of all. Who. Yeah, I guess they stumbled out of the gate there a little bit. But they have deeper roots in this stuff than anybody. They've been working on this for decades. They have all these consumer services that have over a billion users each. They're probably going to catch up.

Paul Thurrott [01:00:11]:
You know, they're going to be one of the big three or whatever.

Richard Campbell [01:00:14]:
They're going to be a player for sure.

Paul Thurrott [01:00:15]:
Yep. And you know, we've been kind of waiting for that to happen. I guess in some ways I'm sure they have too. But whatever reason, you know, Nano Banana I think was the first big one for them. And then you know, and this is the one where it's like yeah, forget everything you ever heard about this. They're doing great. Like these guys are nailing it. And you know, that's the, a lot of, a lot of what floats OpenAI is the same thing that floats anything Wall street related which is just hope for the future.

Paul Thurrott [01:00:46]:
And ye, this is the, you know it. Eventually the dog is going to start wagging the tail and it will make sense or something.

Richard Campbell [01:00:55]:
It's, you know, you're already seeing that whole Bloomberg diagram of Nvidia investing in companies so they can just pay that money back to Nvidia for parts.

Paul Thurrott [01:01:05]:
Yes.

Richard Campbell [01:01:05]:
Is this self dealing thing that tries to keep the trends of growth looking like they're going to continue, keep those investors on board but just a bit longer.

Paul Thurrott [01:01:16]:
You know, big platforms that have been around a long time, like Windows is a great example. But also, you know, Google search and a lot of the things Google makes, whatever, are the types of things that are big enough that.

Paul Thurrott [01:01:30]:
Even if they fail, so to speak, or some other thing is better and comes out and makes them look bad, whatever, you know, inertia goes a long way, especially when you're, you know, you have a billion customers or whatever it is. So it, it takes a lot to get people to switch and, and move off and whatever. So you know, they, they were always going to be able to buy some time. Chat GPT though, comes up in a slightly different era, doesn't it? This is like the Netflix era. This is the Spotify area. This is the, you're paying per month for a thing that if it makes you upset today you can be like nope. And you take it away, turn it off and you go to the next thing. And there are a lot of other things that do the same thing.

Paul Thurrott [01:02:08]:
Right. And so the stickiness of ChatGPT is an unknown, I guess I would say obviously a lot of these features they're building into it like memory and so forth, where it gets to know you or, or has a personality and you develop some kind of a weird relationship with it. Play into the stickiness part. Right. This is maybe the impetus for that stuff. I don't know. But.

Paul Thurrott [01:02:29]:
But yeah, there's, there's a big question here whether they're going to be some kind of a flash in the pan. But I, the problem for OpenAI is that they're on the hook for a trillion dollars by the way of interweaving monies that no one actually has. And there's gonna. You know, I know just thinking about this from like the Xbox perspective, like there was a time three, four years ago where there was a quarter in the fall. It was like before the holidays and Microsoft said a certain third party game title did. Went blockbuster and it like actually raised the whole Xbox boat. And they were talking about Fortnite at the time and they didn't say the name of the company or the product because it wasn't theirs. But they had to make a note of it because it was like, why is this, this is up in commensurately with you know, normal quarter over quarter.

Paul Thurrott [01:03:18]:
And the opposite could happen to OpenAI where you know, eventually they're gonna, it will be some company, it could be Nvidia, it could be Amazon, it could be whomever where something comes due and they're like, we don't actually need that capacity, we're not going to pay. Right. And, and then that company will have to report that and maybe in the beginning they'll be polite because you don't want to harm that company because that will snowball to you too. It's like they're all interlocked. Right, Right. So there'll be some company randomly in some quotable, say something like third quarter results were impacted by, you know, less, less strong than expected, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah, like capacity wasn't, you know, necessary, whatever it was. And that could snowball into something horrible. So there, the code red from OpenAI's perspective is the bubble bursting in their face essentially.

Paul Thurrott [01:04:11]:
Right. I mean, because that could happen quick.

Richard Campbell [01:04:14]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:04:16]:
And lots of people position themselves to be able to deal with the shock that is clearly coming.

Paul Thurrott [01:04:23]:
Well, if, like, if OpenAI disappeared, which is not going to happen, but if they just disappear, you woke up tomorrow.

Richard Campbell [01:04:31]:
There's plenty of models. Right. But more saliently, OpenAI is Netscape in this little AI bubble drama and they're going to be acquired.

Paul Thurrott [01:04:40]:
Yeah, right, right.

Richard Campbell [01:04:42]:
Inevitably. Well, yeah, their name, brand, their brand recognition is worth something.

Leo Laporte [01:04:47]:
The model, what they're value is also.

Paul Thurrott [01:04:51]:
Afford them and, or be able to buy them because in their current climate of antitrust and so forth, the companies that might want, well, you got three.

Leo Laporte [01:05:01]:
More years that you could probably get away with it.

Richard Campbell [01:05:04]:
Plus you're talking about a company that's going to be essentially bankrupt, that's made promises they can't fulfill and prices adjust sharply in those circumstances.

Leo Laporte [01:05:14]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:05:14]:
So maybe too Big to fail scenario, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:05:18]:
Yeah, I don't know that it's not right. They're not actually big companies. They're not employing a huge number of people. Like they're pretty small entities. The one that's really playing games right now is Meta, where Meta, who is running short of money because Zuckerberg spent that much, has now convinced investment groups to build data centers where Meta is promising to utilize them to have a rate. And now they're starting to securitize those data centers. So they're, they're splitting up ownership across multiple packages so that they, it's like one of which. It's like CDRs all over again in 2008.

Paul Thurrott [01:05:57]:
Yeah, it's like a vacation rental. You get like a week rental every year or something.

Richard Campbell [01:06:03]:
Except now if Meta doesn't use those, need those data centers, just a whole lot of investors holding the bag.

Paul Thurrott [01:06:10]:
I don't have this in the notes, but there was a. Because I just couldn't dig into it deep enough to figure out anything about whether it's true or not. But Microsoft allegedly just told their sales staff to lower all their targets on this AI stuff. It's just not working, you know, and that's the type of story I would say today sounds like, you know, you hear that and you're like, yeah, that sounds about right. But we don't really know. I don't want to.

Leo Laporte [01:06:32]:
Reuters had the store or actually the information has a story. Reuters has the story that Microsoft's denying it at this point.

Paul Thurrott [01:06:39]:
There you go. Yes. Well, they should, I mean, they should deny it, but I, it's one of those things. You're like, oh, it sounds right, you know, but I, I, I don't want to give too much attention to it because I don't know why.

Richard Campbell [01:06:49]:
Well, I did the AI keynote today, and afterwards a couple people come at me. He says, when should I get out of the market? And I said, before the crash.

Paul Thurrott [01:06:56]:
Yep.

Leo Laporte [01:06:58]:
As usual. I think that's universal advice.

Paul Thurrott [01:07:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:07:04]:
Boy. Yeah. Can't help with that one.

Richard Campbell [01:07:07]:
Nope.

Leo Laporte [01:07:08]:
I wonder, you know, you said too big to fail, and I kind of got my mind working. The current federal government is very pro AI. In fact, the New York Times had a expose of David Sacks and how he's pushing the federal government in that direction of no regulation, you know, very pro AI. If OpenAI did start to struggle, I could see.

Leo Laporte [01:07:33]:
Trump saying, let's, let's. Okay, Right. We'll just so make it ours.

Paul Thurrott [01:07:37]:
You know, you probably saw the story a week or two Ago, I think it was CFO of Open Air. Somebody just in an interview. Yeah. It was a list of things like we would be open to government intervention. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know. And then Sam Altman came up.

Leo Laporte [01:07:53]:
Well, because the Treasury Secretary said under no circumstances are we going to.

Paul Thurrott [01:07:58]:
No, but you almost get a but. I don't buy it. Was that like a little trial balloon, like.

Richard Campbell [01:08:02]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You got to test the air on all of those things.

Paul Thurrott [01:08:06]:
Yep. And I feel like that's what we're seeing. And I, it's just there's no justification for it.

Richard Campbell [01:08:11]:
This isn't the banking industry. This is not a contagion that's going to affect regular people. The tech giants have just been spending cash. They're not over leveraged the investment guys. This is what being a sophisticated investor means. Congratulations, you can lose money. Right. It's okay.

Paul Thurrott [01:08:29]:
I, I mean in the sense that Wall street, like I said, is kind of selling a dream, so to speak. I mean the, the problem for the economy is one of perception and unfortunately that, oh, no real impact.

Richard Campbell [01:08:40]:
And look, you know, if the s and P500 straightens itself out, like that's 80% of equities in the US like a 30% haircut on that is a big spike and that's a downturn that's going to affect Everybody. It's also 50% of securities worldwide. So we're going to have a couple of years of tough times when this correction comes, but we will climb out of it inevitably.

Paul Thurrott [01:09:07]:
Yeah. The last time we did, we had a world war, didn't we? I'm sure it'll be fine this time. So I don't know. But yeah, I don't, I can't. The financial stuff, I can't, I don't know. I just don't know about this.

Richard Campbell [01:09:20]:
But it's more like 2008 than it is like 1929.

Paul Thurrott [01:09:25]:
Yeah, okay.

Paul Thurrott [01:09:28]:
Yeah. I mean, right. I don't know. I will, you know, we'll see. But I, I.

Paul Thurrott [01:09:36]:
I, I would like. What I'd like to see happen is a little more measured response to stuff which would include the SEC kind of stepping in and saying, you know, we're going to start actually taking a close look at all this stuff and ensure that you guys are all reporting your inter. Dealings correctly, within the letter of the law, so to speak, and you just don't hear that. So I'm not saying it won't happen, but I feel like, I don't know. That's not, we don't really have that kind of responsible government right now. So I just, I don't really see that happening.

Richard Campbell [01:10:04]:
No, you could see a movement towards competent institutions that enforce the laws on the books. That would be interesting.

Paul Thurrott [01:10:13]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know, 8. It's like 800 million weekly users on Open are in ChatGPT. I wonder how many of them pay for it. But even if they were all paying.

Richard Campbell [01:10:27]:
For it for what they're spending, that's what I'm saying.

Paul Thurrott [01:10:30]:
Like what's, you know, 80, 800 million times 20, you know. Yeah, it's like, let's do the math. Like how much of their, you know, when does this become profit? Like how is this.

Richard Campbell [01:10:42]:
No, I don't, I don't get it.

Paul Thurrott [01:10:43]:
I don't quite get it.

Richard Campbell [01:10:44]:
Well, and people don't, people don't need these, these companies aren't incented to be profitable. They still believe in the blue ocean land grab. And that's one of the things that a downturn actually does is gets you focused on making sure you're being as efficient as possible rather than just grow, grow, grow. You know, I, it's a normal shakeout.

Paul Thurrott [01:11:07]:
I think I mentioned this the day it happened or whatever, but a couple of weeks or month. A month ago, something, my wife made this comment, I had said something about this money stuff with Microsoft and open AI and they're just, you know, just pixie dusting everything. And she said, she goes, you know, it's funny, she goes, you and I have this little business and we don't make a profit in three years. It becomes a hobby.

Richard Campbell [01:11:28]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:11:29]:
And I'm like, right, so what's the system? What's the thing they have? Like, how do we get into that boat, you know? Yeah, just throw us money.

Richard Campbell [01:11:39]:
Yeah, it's just, you know, this is power of the big lie model.

Paul Thurrott [01:11:43]:
Right.

Richard Campbell [01:11:43]:
But Deep Seek pointed away to a more efficient option. Like, there's no reason they couldn't be working on efficiency except that A, they've pitched this on infinite growth, B, the tech giants benefit from getting more data centers.

Paul Thurrott [01:11:58]:
We're the only ones that can do this. So this is how it has to happen.

Richard Campbell [01:12:03]:
And China's like, they're looking back at the dot com boom and saying the real win here was all the new fiber optic cable. The Trixie was is not to go bankrupt doing it. And that's what the tech giants have been doing. They're stretching out their lead on cloud deployment so that nobody will ever be able to compete with Them all.

Paul Thurrott [01:12:20]:
Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I. The most likely outcome at the end of all this literally is look at whatever big tech is today will be what big tech is in five or ten years, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:12:33]:
Yeah, that's, that's their main goals. We have a disruptive moment, let's protect ourselves.

Paul Thurrott [01:12:37]:
We might see a little GPUs are.

Richard Campbell [01:12:39]:
Going to get cheaper, you know, but that's fine. They're a little over excessively pricey right now.

Paul Thurrott [01:12:44]:
Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Richard Campbell [01:12:47]:
I'd like to be able to buy ram that be a feature.

Paul Thurrott [01:12:51]:
Yes.

Paul Thurrott [01:12:55]:
Jeez. It's like having another pandemic again.

Richard Campbell [01:12:59]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:13:01]:
So these are not major stories, but oddly, Opera was in the news twice. I'll actually do these in chronological order, not the order they are in the notes, because Opera has multiple browsers, which I've never completely understood, frankly, but they do and they only make browsers. I mean, that's what they do. Opera Neon is their agenic browser.

Paul Thurrott [01:13:26]:
Honestly, it's probably the best example of this kind of thing. Although I would throw Perplexity Combat and possibly dia, although I don't use that one enough to know as being kind of in the rough same place. But they added if you're, you know, you have to pay for it for one thing. So you do have to pay to use this thing. But you get now the Gemini 3 and Nano Banana Pro stuff, Google Docs integration, which is amazing. And then this is, also, this kind of speaks to that deep SEQ mentality where you can do a normal query, you can do a deep research, which takes, you know, a long time depending on what it is. And they're kind of cutting it in the middle by saying we have both of those things, but we're also going to have something called one minute Deep Research. Right, right.

Paul Thurrott [01:14:10]:
And, and it's like, look, if this is enough, then you, you can be done and it won't be as expensive, you know, yada yada, or time consuming, et cetera. So I thought that was kind of an interesting.

Paul Thurrott [01:14:23]:
Kind of a thing. And when you're paying for this particular product, you know, you get access to these other models. It's, it's not just like the, the one that Opera has. Right. Which is the ARIA model. But then a couple of days later they announced this thing and they never really, they didn't say this exactly this way, but they're partnering with Google to integrate Gemini into all of its web browsers. They're going to have something that they're now calling Opera AI. It's Going to replace Aria.

Paul Thurrott [01:14:50]:
And Aria was their original kind of in browser AI solution or whatever. And.

Paul Thurrott [01:14:57]:
As we see elsewhere, if you don't pay for Opera 1 or Opera GX or what's the, the calm one, Opera, whatever the minimal one's called, I can't think of it right now for some reason.

Richard Campbell [01:15:11]:
So many flavors.

Paul Thurrott [01:15:13]:
Yeah, there's too many, I think. But you, you'll get some, you know, amount per month. Right. And so. Okay, that's cool. And then obviously if you were paying for Gemini, you know, through Google directly, you could access it in the browser and yada yada, yada. So this is kind of an. A very quiet about face on their part because, you know, Brave was.

Paul Thurrott [01:15:33]:
Is doing this. They have their own thing. Leo. Yeah, Trying to think. I think DuckDuckGo is doing this to some degree. You know, they, they're working with like mostly open source AIs. You know, these browser makers are all kind of plotting their own course. And originally Opera.

Paul Thurrott [01:15:50]:
Opera was pretty early on this, by the way. But they were, they're like, we're doing this stuff. And I think partly out of the work they were doing with Neon, they were like, you know, maybe this is something we need. You know, let's go with. They partnered with Google. You know, they partnered with Google and Search already. Right. So it wasn't a big leap there.

Paul Thurrott [01:16:05]:
But it is not what they were doing like two weeks ago, you know, so they've kind of stepped back from that cliff, which is interesting. So we'll see what comes.

Richard Campbell [01:16:14]:
You also have to wonder with any, with any company resisting this, like, sooner or later the finance guys show up and say, it doesn't matter whether you like it or not, if we don't have these terms in our product stack, we fail. Put the terms in, do what you've got to do, you know, until this bubble bursts, which I don't know. I hope they hang on. I'm doing very well with this new keynote. It's going to be hard after the bubble.

Paul Thurrott [01:16:39]:
I was just your. You did a talk that's called something to like the past 20 years of software development or something like that.

Richard Campbell [01:16:45]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:16:46]:
X ray. And it comes up in my YouTube feed all the time. Like, I always see this picture of you, like with like one hand in there, you know, whatever your pose is.

Richard Campbell [01:16:52]:
Yeah, that. All that wagging look that I do.

Paul Thurrott [01:16:54]:
Yeah, yeah. Professor Campbell.

Richard Campbell [01:16:57]:
And I've watched Pontificate.

Paul Thurrott [01:17:00]:
Yeah, no, but I listen, I've watched this thing at least twice. What if that's worth it? Keeps Going like you like this before, you know, watch it again. And I keep looking at this and I think to myself, man, you got to update this one now because like this is about, this is changing as we speak. Maybe more dramatically than it has in, I don't know, 30 plus years. I mean.

Richard Campbell [01:17:19]:
Well, the joke is the first time I was asked to do an AI talk was when I was doing that work with the Vatican and I presented it to a bunch of cardinals and, and I've got the notes from the talk from 2017 and it just seems so light hearted. We're talking about data integrity and you know, the, the bias in data for criminal prosecution and things. Not the. Not chat. GPT psychosis.

Paul Thurrott [01:17:46]:
Right, exactly. Like when. Yeah. When did AI become like a, like a, like a psychopath.

Richard Campbell [01:17:53]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:17:54]:
You know, crazy person. We're gonna.

Richard Campbell [01:17:56]:
Like, I've now given you a tool in your phone to take your minor personality quirk and turn it into a full blown mental health crisis. Yeah, you're welcome.

Paul Thurrott [01:18:04]:
Remember how I used to doom scroll now?

Richard Campbell [01:18:06]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:18:07]:
You're like, where can I buy a gun? Where can I get pills? Like you're like, yeah, you know it's, it's unbelievable. Yeah, it's bizarre.

Richard Campbell [01:18:15]:
No, that, you know, one of the things I closed out in the keynote today with was the deep mind alpha fold story. You know, just to say there is a good news. It's like look, these guys figured this thing out. It took tens of thousands of scientists 60 years to figure out 115 proteins. They finally built a model after four years that figured out 200 million and they gave them away.

Richard Campbell [01:18:39]:
And biology has fundamentally changed. It will take decades for us to understand all the things they figured out. But that accelerated the development of the malaria vaccine. That's changed the approaches for how we deal with.

Richard Campbell [01:18:54]:
Antibiotic resistant bacteria. Like we can't even imagine how much has happened. Like there is extraordinary success here and there's extraordinary stupid going on at the same time and extraordinary greed.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:09]:
What you say is the fart app of the AI era so far.

Leo Laporte [01:19:13]:
ChatGPT, of course.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:16]:
Well, I mean like what's the, like.

Leo Laporte [01:19:17]:
Oh no.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:17]:
Grok.

Leo Laporte [01:19:18]:
Grok is the fart.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:19]:
Stiffest possible use of AI.

Richard Campbell [01:19:23]:
The phrase you're looking for, Paul, is Mecca Hitler.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:30]:
But that was the antagonist in Wolfenstein 3D.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:37]:
I don't know.

Richard Campbell [01:19:37]:
Yeah, it's.

Leo Laporte [01:19:39]:
We couldn't live in a more interesting time.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:41]:
I know.

Leo Laporte [01:19:42]:
You know, this is what happens. You talked to those cardinals eight years ago. What would it be like eight years from now? And I Think it's accelerating. I don't think it's. It's linear. I think it's actually, I think, you.

Richard Campbell [01:19:51]:
Know, Leo, I think a lot of people are highly motivated to make you believe it's going faster because that makes you make worse decisions.

Leo Laporte [01:19:57]:
Okay. You have to hurry up.

Richard Campbell [01:19:59]:
And I'm really.

Paul Thurrott [01:19:59]:
Yeah, I'm ready to go back on, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:20:02]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:20:03]:
Although I think a lot of people, like, I don't know. I think I do. I think I want to be left out.

Leo Laporte [01:20:06]:
I think it's exciting.

Paul Thurrott [01:20:07]:
I have the fear of being included.

Leo Laporte [01:20:09]:
It's really going fast. Look at Nano Banana Pro.

Paul Thurrott [01:20:14]:
Fear of AI, you know.

Leo Laporte [01:20:16]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:20:18]:
I'm not going to deny their improvements. We're a long way from Will Smith eating spaghetti. But it's not actually.

Leo Laporte [01:20:24]:
We haven't fixed is our. It's our bandwidth issue.

Paul Thurrott [01:20:28]:
There goes that transcontinental cable. The Russians found it.

Leo Laporte [01:20:31]:
That's one thing we have to work on. Hey, I do want to take a little break here. Are you ready for the Xbox segment or do we complete our AI segment?

Paul Thurrott [01:20:40]:
Yeah, we're good.

Richard Campbell [01:20:41]:
All right, we're there.

Leo Laporte [01:20:41]:
Let's do Xbox next in just a little bit. You're watching Windows Weekly. Paul Thurat is in Makunji. You can find him though, anywhere in the world@therot.com and of course his books@leanpub.com Richard Campbell is a global traveler. Vilnius today. Where tomorrow. Where's next?

Richard Campbell [01:21:03]:
Pennsylvania next week. So.

Leo Laporte [01:21:05]:
Oh, slowly making exotic town of Makunji.

Richard Campbell [01:21:10]:
Oh, no. They. The craziest part of this whole thing is after we finish on the 10th, on the 11th, I'm actually flying home and there's an event in Vancouver that wanted me to do the closing keynote. And so I've literally bumped up the flight. So I land at 1:30 to do a 3:30 keynote. And as I said to. To the Hank at the time, it's like, dude, this is flying awfully close to the sun. Like, very.

Richard Campbell [01:21:35]:
And he's like, I want it.

Paul Thurrott [01:21:36]:
Also, remind me the last time you flew home from here, there was a picture pandemic.

Richard Campbell [01:21:41]:
Yeah. I was put immediately into quarantine.

Paul Thurrott [01:21:43]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:21:44]:
Yeah. So I don't know if it'll work.

Leo Laporte [01:21:47]:
Out, but if you hear that story, well, you know, save that for Monday. We can talk about that.

Paul Thurrott [01:21:51]:
This will be better for sure.

Richard Campbell [01:21:52]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:21:53]:
Yeah. All right. Our show today, brought to you by. This is something there's no question everybody needs to know about. Bit Warden. Password hygiene is vital. Bit Warden is the password manager. I Use the trusted leader in passwords, passkeys, even secrets management.

Leo Laporte [01:22:13]:
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Leo Laporte [01:23:02]:
This month, 42% of parents with kids aged get this three to five little kids, three to five. Almost half of the parents said their child had accidentally shared personal data online. Mommy, I need the credit card. Meanwhile, 80% of Gen Z parents fear that their kids could fall victim to AI scams. Forget the kids, what about the parents? 37%, despite that, still give full autonomy or only lightly monitor online usage of their gen zers. As cyber threats become increasingly personal, having a robust identity and access management solution is absolutely vital. More important than ever before. Whether you're protecting a single account or you're running a company and you've got thousands of.

Leo Laporte [01:23:53]:
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Leo Laporte [01:24:32]:
I know Bitwarden is also supporting AI users. Their latest MCP server release extends beyond vault operations and it lets AI agents assist with organization level administration through a bit warden public API. I love the public API. Another reason to support Bitwarden. According to IBM the average cost of a data breach now tops $10.22 million. That's the ransom, that's the downtime, that's the reputation loss. With 88% of cyber attacks on basic web apps tied to compromised credentials, it's clear why you need to use a password manager. It's a critical part, the critical layer of every IT stack.

Leo Laporte [01:25:17]:
And there's no question in my mind the password manager you need is Bitwarden. It's a cost effective solution for any team, whether it's IT and operations, finance, engineering, HR or marketing. The devs will love the secrets capability of Bitwarden. You can keep your SSH keys in there, it'll even generate SSH keys. There are so many nice features in here. Bitwarden will enhance your business's security and productivity. Introducing Bitwarden security is the simplest investment to safeguard credentials and protect all employees at your business. Folks stay safe and secure online this holiday season.

Leo Laporte [01:25:52]:
Bit Warden setup is easy. It supports importing for most password management solutions. The move is quick. It's so simple and it's such a good way to improve your security. And of course it's open source, which I think is absolutely critical so that you know that the source code can be, you know, you can look at it. But it's also regularly audited by third party experts by anybody who wants to. It's on GitHub. Bitwarden meets SOC2 type 2 GDPR, HIPAA CCPA compliance.

Leo Laporte [01:26:20]:
It's ISO 270012002 certified. It's the best. Get started today with Bitwarden's free trial of a teams or enterprise plan. And it's not too late to tell your family members. Bitwarden is free forever across all devices. As an individual user at bitwarden.

Leo Laporte [01:26:39]:
That'S bitwarden.com.

Leo Laporte [01:26:42]:
Twit. It's the best. Gotta try it.

Richard Campbell [01:26:46]:
Bit warden.

Leo Laporte [01:26:48]:
Now, ladies and gentlemen, it's time for the best Xbox segment in the world with Mr.

Richard Campbell [01:26:56]:
I miss our theme song. A little Halo glow, you know. Oh, there it is. I'm delighted.

Leo Laporte [01:27:06]:
Did you see the. The creator of the guy who started Bungie was given a. A talk. I don't know if maybe I should see before I say this, if it's in your. No, it's not. He was given a little talk. Yeah, about. You may not remember, but I vividly remember that before Halo was Marathon, Bungie's first game and it was a Mac game.

Paul Thurrott [01:27:27]:
It was like Doom game.

Leo Laporte [01:27:29]:
Yeah, it looked. You know what it looked a lot like Marathon. But. But what?

Paul Thurrott [01:27:34]:
I.

Leo Laporte [01:27:35]:
We used to play like crazy on the site. Everybody would play it. It was so much fun.

Paul Thurrott [01:27:39]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:27:40]:
And then apparently Microsoft came to him and said, we are not letting Steve Jobs have Halo.

Paul Thurrott [01:27:47]:
They had. There was a Mac world where they showed. They showed it because it was coming to the Mac.

Leo Laporte [01:27:53]:
Exactly.

Paul Thurrott [01:27:54]:
Because they. That's what they did. They made Mac games.

Leo Laporte [01:27:56]:
And the Microsoft and the Xbox guys.

Richard Campbell [01:27:59]:
Said, yeah, no.

Leo Laporte [01:28:03]:
How big does this check have to be?

Paul Thurrott [01:28:06]:
That's the sound of the Microsoft.

Richard Campbell [01:28:10]:
Here comes the pile of money.

Leo Laporte [01:28:12]:
I loved it. Steve Jobs ain't getting this one. They said, yeah, but you know what? That is Halo, I think, still very much considered the key franchise for Xbox. Right?

Paul Thurrott [01:28:24]:
It is. But, you know, I, My son was, you know, home over the holidays and I was like, mark, let me ask you a question. I said, what would Microsoft or Xbox, whatever, have to do to make you play Halo again? And he's like, I don't. He's like, I don't think they could. It's over at the. There was a. The first. Well, two, three games, we'll say three games.

Paul Thurrott [01:28:45]:
Ish. There was something magical going on there. Right? They did, they did a lot. Right. There was. There was a really nice, like the swelling of the music. Like you're running along, like, heading to the next thing. It's like, like it just really kind of worked well.

Paul Thurrott [01:29:00]:
And then.

Leo Laporte [01:29:00]:
And then they fired the Bungee team.

Paul Thurrott [01:29:03]:
Yeah, well, they. Well, first they, you know, they, they did multiplayer with Halo 2. That was amazing. They based Xbox Live, literally on what they had done for Halo 2. There was some real, you know, action going on there. It was really good. And then.

Paul Thurrott [01:29:19]:
Obviously you need more than the one game, you know, and Microsoft has had, well, they had historically like Flight Simulator, but that time they weren't doing much with that or, you know, the Forza type games and kind of smaller titles that were doing pretty good or whatever. But I, Yeah, at some point it just kind of ran out of. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. But I, I do know that from Halo 4 on, I just, I always looked and I tried and I.

Paul Thurrott [01:29:49]:
I don't know, I just couldn't get into it. I don't know, like even. It's not as. It's not like Zork exactly. But, you know, when this remastered new version of the first game comes out again, 4K, et cetera. So of course I'm going to take a look at it, but I've also played this thing like 20 times like, yeah, what am I going to get out of this? Like, I don't, I'm not sure there is anything, you know, like at this point, like, I don't know.

Richard Campbell [01:30:11]:
Nostalgia will only carry you so far.

Paul Thurrott [01:30:17]:
Yeah, well.

Paul Thurrott [01:30:21]:
I don't know.

Leo Laporte [01:30:22]:
Anyway, it was a, it was a great game in its time.

Paul Thurrott [01:30:25]:
No, it really was.

Leo Laporte [01:30:26]:
It really superseded. I think that's, that's, that's what happened.

Paul Thurrott [01:30:29]:
Yeah, Call of Duty took the multiplayer stuff away and then, you know, it's had its own competition obviously from battle royale type games more recently. Fortnite, Fortnite, etc. But yeah, I, and look, I'm. What am I complaining about? It's like Halo is exactly the same thing all the time. It's like, yeah, what is Call of Duty? I mean like, it's literally like it couldn't be more the same except they charge you 70 bucks a year for it now, so whatever. But I don't know if you, if you're in the Call of Duty.

Paul Thurrott [01:31:03]:
Call of Duty Mobile is having this huge anniversary.

Paul Thurrott [01:31:08]:
Like a end of season kind of thing. It's supposed to be huge.

Paul Thurrott [01:31:12]:
I don't know. There's gonna be a new games type which is kind of a big deal. So they have multiplayer, they have battle royale. There was a brief moment in time, I think where they had Warzone as like a standalone mobile game. But now it's part of Call of Duty Mobile and there's like a third game type coming in. It's kind of like an extraction based thing.

Paul Thurrott [01:31:34]:
So I mean, I'll look at it, but I don't know. Jeez, I don't know. I just do the same thing all over again and hate myself for it in the next morning. But.

Paul Thurrott [01:31:44]:
But if you're not like, if you're not as stupid as I am. Game Pass is, you know, churning again. It's the new month so we get a bunch of new titles coming. A couple of the big ones like that recent Indiana Jones movie is in there. The Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

Leo Laporte [01:32:01]:
Digging a hole.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:04]:
I don't. Well, sorry, I don't know about the gig hole, but the.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:08]:
Indiana Jones was available on day one at the time for the Game Pass subscription, but maybe subscriptions back then that supported it. Now it's been a year, so it's coming to premium print. Like the normal. Yeah, like the other tier. So that's, you know, so if you. Yeah, this is the new and great.

Richard Campbell [01:32:27]:
Circle was a heck of a game. Like the, the character person they had playing Indiana Jones did an amazing Job. Like, it really was impressive. So, yeah, this is. I'm surprised it's not an ultimate only title. Like it was.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:41]:
It was at launch, but now it's a year later, so it's coming.

Richard Campbell [01:32:43]:
Now it's a year later, so it's down to premium at least.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:46]:
I mean, the big one obviously is Spray Paint Simulator.

Richard Campbell [01:32:49]:
No, no, no, no. A game about digging a hole is the big one.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:52]:
Clearly. Brats. I'm really looking forward to the new Bratz game.

Paul Thurrott [01:32:57]:
It's possible this death Howl. Death how the world thing might be. That might be interesting. I don't know that one. I'm not sure about that one. But maybe. I don't know. I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing and keep painting myself.

Paul Thurrott [01:33:11]:
It's fine.

Leo Laporte [01:33:12]:
Spray paint simulators are relaxing, satisfying game invites you to build your own painting business from the ground up. Meet with quirky clients in story mode mode and take on each job right from the start. Paint everything. Rooms, homes, cars, bridges, even giant robots. Unlock free spray mode and play alone or with a friend to make the entire town your canvas. Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:33:39]:
Maybe didn't give you the option to play with yourself. Like, I don't know what that's about.

Paul Thurrott [01:33:47]:
Computer for that one, my friend.

Richard Campbell [01:33:51]:
Wow.

Leo Laporte [01:33:51]:
I don't know.

Paul Thurrott [01:33:52]:
I'm sorry. I know. I'm sorry.

Leo Laporte [01:33:53]:
You know, that's. I gotta say, though, that's my kind of game. Low stress. You can't lose.

Richard Campbell [01:33:58]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:33:58]:
Spray Paint Simulator. You can't.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:00]:
You can't.

Leo Laporte [01:34:01]:
You can only win.

Richard Campbell [01:34:02]:
I think I. I think I'd just go directly to graffiti mode. Like that's what you want to do.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:08]:
Simulator. Just set it on some course and sit in the front and watch the scenery go by.

Richard Campbell [01:34:12]:
Like, I mean, how little do you.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:14]:
Want to do in a game, you know?

Leo Laporte [01:34:16]:
Does it have that shake sound that when you shake it?

Paul Thurrott [01:34:19]:
No, it does. We worked with artisans to get that sound exactly right. I want it.

Richard Campbell [01:34:26]:
They've modeled the different ball and can combination so you know exactly the right sound.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:32]:
Yep.

Leo Laporte [01:34:33]:
Sounds like fun.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:34]:
What a world.

Leo Laporte [01:34:35]:
You know, I did like a game.

Leo Laporte [01:34:39]:
Back in the day. I don't know if you remember that guy game.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:41]:
What is it called?

Leo Laporte [01:34:42]:
Jet Set Radio. Did you ever play that?

Paul Thurrott [01:34:43]:
No.

Leo Laporte [01:34:44]:
Oh, yeah. That was. You did little. You were skateboarding and here, let's do some spray painting here. No, I was like, what's.

Paul Thurrott [01:34:52]:
I thought my wife turned on an Xbox. I'm like, what was that sound?

Leo Laporte [01:34:56]:
Oh, I. You know, it looks like it's an airbrush tool. It's not.

Richard Campbell [01:35:00]:
We're taping off.

Leo Laporte [01:35:01]:
Listen to that music, man. Wow.

Richard Campbell [01:35:03]:
Oh, there you go. There. It looks like some, some, some graffiti.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:06]:
They really spent a lot on the graphics.

Richard Campbell [01:35:08]:
There's a look.

Leo Laporte [01:35:09]:
Get prepared.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:11]:
We use the latest in super Nintendo graphics technology.

Leo Laporte [01:35:14]:
Who is this for? Who? I mean.

Richard Campbell [01:35:17]:
Oh no.

Leo Laporte [01:35:18]:
Who is this for? Oh, how satisfying.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:20]:
Like daddy, I would like to play Call of Duty. It's like, all right, I'm gonna give you a game that has a gun in it.

Leo Laporte [01:35:24]:
If you love Power Wash Pro, you'll love Spray Paint Simulator.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:31]:
Oh boy. Wow.

Richard Campbell [01:35:35]:
Wow.

Leo Laporte [01:35:35]:
Okay, I'm glad that you know what? I might re re up on the Xbox.

Richard Campbell [01:35:40]:
I'm enlightened now. I am changed.

Leo Laporte [01:35:43]:
It's time for me to sign up again.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:45]:
I think I'm ten dumber now.

Leo Laporte [01:35:49]:
Is that possible, Paul?

Paul Thurrott [01:35:50]:
I know it's hard to calculate actually, but I don't know.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:56]:
Of more interest perhaps.

Paul Thurrott [01:35:59]:
I was fascinated to read this interview with the Verge. The guy, an engineer from Valve, a guy who's worked on Proton, the compatibility layer that brings Windows games to Steam OS and has worked in SteamOS and Steam Deck, was talking about ARM as a platform and they are porting SteamOS and the proton emulator or compatibility layer to ARM. And it's requiring a separate layer called Fex, which is sort of like. Well, is an emulator actually. And this will. It's separate from what Microsoft's doing obviously in Windows 11 on ARM. But it's one of those things where like Valve has actually secretly been funding this for years and hasn't said anything about it publicly. And it's one of those, we'll see what happens.

Paul Thurrott [01:36:49]:
Like this is kind of one of those weird little things that like Valve does. It's like we feel like there's a market for this right now. We see it as like lower end portable devices that you know, would be under Steam Deck, if that makes sense. But we also, based on the success we've had with Proton or yeah, Proton On Linux and SteamOS.

Paul Thurrott [01:37:10]:
We know we can do. We're doing it like it's working, like it's going to work. And it's possible. He very specifically called out like he expects we're going to see portable and even desktop steam OS based PCs on ARM, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:37:23]:
Yeah, no, I want to see the Gabe Cube. Is the ARM chip set, right?

Paul Thurrott [01:37:27]:
Yeah, that's actually super interesting to me. But he also like maybe this is common knowledge. I just, I really, I guess I don't really follow this per se, but Proton is essentially like an experimental version of wine. You know, that kind of classic Linux technology for, you know, running Windows apps. But it's obviously optimized for games and optimized for SteamOS specifically, which is like this arch Linux kind of based thing. But I guess this thing, they, they feed back all of the improvements they make into wine. So it improves wine for everybody or anybody uses Linux or whatever. And I didn't actually understand those things were related in any way.

Paul Thurrott [01:38:05]:
Like I said, maybe this was common knowledge. But they asked him about Prism, which is the Microsoft thing. He's like, yeah, I don't actually know anything about that. Like it's, they're doing their own thing. It's, it's fine, it's all good. But.

Paul Thurrott [01:38:20]:
This is very interesting to me because I. Well, you know, for obvious reasons I really think ARM is just the future of everything. And it's pretty clear at some point Valve was like look, we got to get going on this because the beauty of steamos and Proton rather is that you don't have to ask anything of developers. No one's changing code, it just works. And I guess it's done pretty well for them. And they're like, let's do the same thing on arm, you know, like, why not? Like, and these could be essentially like it may be. Well probably it'd be Linux I guess like Steam OS essentially but it could benefit Android and definitely Windows on ARM as well. So it's, it's, it's interesting.

Richard Campbell [01:39:01]:
So I mean you got to think any, the next generation.

Richard Campbell [01:39:07]:
Augmented reality headsets, things are all going to be ARM based too.

Paul Thurrott [01:39:11]:
So. Yeah, right.

Leo Laporte [01:39:12]:
For battery, everything you can do to.

Richard Campbell [01:39:13]:
Get yourself positioned in hardware.

Paul Thurrott [01:39:15]:
Right.

Richard Campbell [01:39:15]:
Like get this hardware moving on platforms people understand. So new platforms can emerge.

Paul Thurrott [01:39:20]:
That's right. And, and actually they have a thing or they have one that's on the way out and they have a new one coming in that's like a VR headset of some kind, whatever it is, but same it's, it's basically what would typically be like a linux platform. It's ARM, you know, Snapdragon, probably MediaTech or whatever it is, doesn't really matter. But it's some ARM based platform.

Paul Thurrott [01:39:41]:
Yeah. Get the stuff running natively on there. Like that's a. Since this is good, this is going to float boats. I like this. Yeah, for sure.

Richard Campbell [01:39:49]:
But you know, and in the end this is just them making their platform bigger so that more developers come to them so their catalog gets larger.

Paul Thurrott [01:39:57]:
It's smart too. You don't even have to attract them. They're like, we've just done this for you. It's just going to work.

Richard Campbell [01:40:02]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:03]:
Like you already love us on Windows or whatever. Like every, you know, all game developers of course think of Steam at least and we can just make.

Richard Campbell [01:40:14]:
Linux gaming coming true like in a big, big way.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:18]:
Yep.

Richard Campbell [01:40:18]:
And that's, that's huge.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:20]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:40:23]:
And it, you know, they, they've done a good job of packaging up, making their company more competitive and successful by being beneficial to the community as a whole.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:34]:
Yeah, yeah. No, there's definitely an idealism to Valve that I kind of like. Yeah, you're a little, I mean, you know, Gabe Newell's kind of a weirdo, but it's just like. Well, right. I mean.

Leo Laporte [01:40:48]:
Right.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:49]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:40:49]:
You talk about a bubble. Right. Like they're, they're quietly living in their happy little world where they all make a ton of money.

Paul Thurrott [01:40:58]:
Seriously. Half Life 3, anything, anything. And they're like, you've heard the rumor.

Leo Laporte [01:41:03]:
That the, the Valve, the Steam Machine is going to be PC priced, it's not going to be console priced.

Paul Thurrott [01:41:10]:
Right?

Leo Laporte [01:41:10]:
Yeah. You think that changes the equation?

Richard Campbell [01:41:13]:
Sure it does to some degree but, but it also like they've never been one to do stuff cheaply like that. It's not a surprise. It's fully in character and those who want to buy it will buy it. And if price is a matter for you, you wouldn't be here in the first place.

Paul Thurrott [01:41:28]:
Yep. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:41:29]:
I mean people buy consoles if they want to save money and.

Leo Laporte [01:41:34]:
The market for this is PC gamers who want to sit at the couch.

Paul Thurrott [01:41:37]:
Yeah. I don't understand why they haven't revved the Steam Deck. Like I feel like this should have been accompanied by a Steam Deck rev, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:41:46]:
Yeah. But I wouldn't surprise me if after this is out and it's working, then there is a new Steam Deck. But I would also think, I don't even know why you went with the existing chipsets. Why wouldn't you hold out for arm? Well, the next Steam Deck ought to be arm.

Paul Thurrott [01:42:02]:
Okay. Yeah. Right. Steam Deck.

Leo Laporte [01:42:06]:
Yes. Not Steam Machine though, right?

Paul Thurrott [01:42:08]:
Maybe. Yeah. Well, but he expects to see Steam Machine on ARM as well. Like I, at some point this is thing like I've not experienced like when we were in, I was still in Mexico and Qualcomm announced this new control panel thing for Snapdragon and it's like it will look at the games you've installed in this computer and optimize them for the platform automatically. And the thing I had in Mexico is the lowest end Snapdragon. Get it didn't actually work on there. So when I got home I was like, all right, I'm going to install a couple games on Surface Laptop 2 and 7. Sorry.

Paul Thurrott [01:42:41]:
And which is one of the better chips. And.

Paul Thurrott [01:42:46]:
Yeah, I mean it works like it's. It kind of takes a little bit of the guesswork out. I mean I can't say that it competes with like an AMD Ryzen 7 Pro with you know, whatever Radeon, whatever it is, 680 graphics or whatever. But. But it's quieter, you know, like it is quieter. It's battery life.

Richard Campbell [01:43:04]:
I expect the battery life be longer. Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:43:06]:
I mean it has some, you know, but it's. But I'm not playing Call of Duty on it either. Right. Like it's not. I don't know that I would. I haven't tried. I don't. It's not going to work well.

Leo Laporte [01:43:15]:
And Apple's shown that an ARM chip can be a powerful desktop chip and it doesn't have. It's not just.

Paul Thurrott [01:43:21]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:43:24]:
By the way, big breaking story that just came in over the transom. Thanks to Joe in our discord. Alan Dye, who is the legendary designer at Apple number two to Jony I've and runs Apple's design has now left Apple for Meta.

Paul Thurrott [01:43:41]:
Yeah. Another company with great taste. That makes sense.

Leo Laporte [01:43:45]:
Well obviously we know how to spend Checkbook.

Paul Thurrott [01:43:47]:
Yeah, it's like the Michelin award winning Cordon Bleu chef has moved to McDonald's.

Leo Laporte [01:43:52]:
It is a little like that, isn't it?

Paul Thurrott [01:43:54]:
No, it really is like wow, that's crazy. I.

Leo Laporte [01:43:59]:
But you know, I mean they must have made a pitch that we want to do something. I mean he's a designer. We want to do something. Oh, it looks great.

Paul Thurrott [01:44:08]:
This. I can tell you what the pitch was. It was.

Leo Laporte [01:44:12]:
Back it up.

Richard Campbell [01:44:13]:
Here comes the Meta truck.

Leo Laporte [01:44:16]:
The universal sound of the money truck backing up.

Paul Thurrott [01:44:20]:
We're in the money, you know.

Richard Campbell [01:44:22]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:44:23]:
This is Apple has to just be bummed by the Apple.

Paul Thurrott [01:44:27]:
This is an untold story because there's such a company. But I. So many people have been coached from this company recently. Yeah, it's man with the last like who's going to be left? It's going to be Tim Cook and Craig figured basically. It's very strange. I don't know what's going on there.

Leo Laporte [01:44:47]:
Anyway. Yeah, I mean it's not. No, this isn't an Apple show nor is it a Meta show, but I think this is another symptom of something I don't know.

Richard Campbell [01:44:56]:
I don't know.

Leo Laporte [01:44:56]:
What?

Paul Thurrott [01:44:56]:
Oh, the money madness that is gripping our industry right now.

Leo Laporte [01:44:59]:
Crazy. Yeah, and it's all AI. It's all about AI. I mean, Alan DY is not going to. He wants to make the blue page insecurity.

Richard Campbell [01:45:08]:
We don't know what happens next. So go get the best people you can.

Paul Thurrott [01:45:11]:
Plus, you guys are all worried about job losses. This guy just got a new job. What's your problem?

Leo Laporte [01:45:14]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:45:16]:
Look at our payroll go up by billions.

Paul Thurrott [01:45:19]:
I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. It's.

Leo Laporte [01:45:22]:
Whatever.

Paul Thurrott [01:45:23]:
So stupid.

Leo Laporte [01:45:25]:
Yeah, I don't know if it says more about Meta or more about Apple.

Paul Thurrott [01:45:31]:
I like the phrase it says less about meta. I think so, because the less said about meta, the better. Better.

Leo Laporte [01:45:41]:
All right, we're gonna take a break and then get ready. We turn a page and head to the back of the book. Always the best. I always go to the back of the magazine first before magazine. What's that, Daddy? Well, back before the Internet, we used to. We used to put information on dead trees. Addie, that doesn't seem very efficient. No, it wasn't.

Paul Thurrott [01:46:05]:
We couldn't hear their screams. It was okay.

Leo Laporte [01:46:08]:
But afterwards you could make some fine bedroom furniture with it. Our show today, brought to you by the thing that replaced the dead trees. Framer.

Leo Laporte [01:46:19]:
Still, if you're. I mean, look, if you're still jumping between tools just to update your website, I gotta tell you about something very exciting from Framer. You know Framer, of course, a great place for designing a website. But now Framer unifies design, CMS and publishing on one canvas all together. And that's frankly where they belong. No handoff, no import export, no hassle. Everything you need to design and publish in one place. Kramer already built the fastest way to publish beautiful production ready websites.

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Framer is where ideas go live, start to finish. Let me say this again, Framers. This is a free, free, full feature design tool. Think. Unlimited projects, free. Unlimited pages, free. Unlimited collaborators, free. And everything you need.

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Leo Laporte [01:48:42]:
Back of the book time. That means, I think we kick things off with Mr. P.T. paul Little Polly Thurrott.

Leo Laporte [01:48:50]:
With his tip of the week.

Paul Thurrott [01:48:52]:
So I have nothing but tips. I don't have any app picks, but I have a series of tips.

Leo Laporte [01:48:59]:
Tips of the week.

Paul Thurrott [01:49:00]:
Kind of a looking ahead, looking back and then Microsoft ugly sweaters. Because, you know, why not, Oh, I.

Leo Laporte [01:49:06]:
Forgot my ugly sweater. I'll wear it on Monday. I'll wear it on Monday.

Paul Thurrott [01:49:10]:
So, yeah, just in the same sense, like, I wasn't intending to write about like these AI editorials. I wrote it like I started writing this thing and it turned into like a screed against like rental software. Like, I, I feel very strongly about paying for things that I use. You know, I make things, I'd like to be paid for it. Like, I get it and. But I also feel like we're on this kind of treadmill thing and it's used to just be streaming services, but now it's software too. And I don't like software that doesn't give you a choice. Like.

Paul Thurrott [01:49:44]:
You know, we think about Microsoft 365 and officer, at least it's sort of a choice. But like in the Adobe side, like they've moved to a 100% you don't own anything model. And I just, I don't know, this is rubbing me the wrong way, but this is a good time of year for people to start looking at these things, you know, that they're paying for all the time. And it's like, are you getting the value out of this thing? Because, you know, in this age of insertification, everything is just so terrible. So, so, so terrible.

Paul Thurrott [01:50:15]:
So it's not like a, like I was, you know, one point last year I was like, I will not pay for AI. You know, take it looks like kind of a hard stance. It's like asterisks, you know, so it's like, not like, I am not going to pay for things that, you know that I'm gonna. Of course I am. I pay for lots of these things. But, like, as this stuff all kind of falls apart, you know, you probably saw the story recently where Netflix is not letting people cast to a smart TV that has a remote anymore. Yeah. And it's like.

Paul Thurrott [01:50:40]:
And they're like, oh, no. It's a better user experience. The thing is a remote, you want to do that. You're like, okay, but it's in a hotel room and I don't want to sign into my account on there or I'm at a friend's house or I'm traveling at an Airbnb or whatever it is. Like, what are you talking about? You're just. What you're doing is we have. I called it a. What's the term I use for this? It was like an insuredification force multiplier occurring where you're a sports fan, you live in the United States or Canada probably, and you want to watch your favorite football team maybe, or whatever the sport is at that time of year.

Paul Thurrott [01:51:11]:
And it's like, what is it on? Good luck. Spin the wheel, Bob. There's like 13 different places this thing could be. My son was here over the holidays and he was like, if we actually had to pay for every one of these services, we'd be like a thousand bucks a month. He's like, you don't. You never know where a game is anymore. And so, you know, Netflix plays a role in that. Right? Like, Netflix is one of those companies that is like paying for live sports events now and then taking away the ability for someone to come to your house who's not paying for Netflix and cast to your TV so you can watch it together as a group.

Paul Thurrott [01:51:46]:
Right? That's what they're doing. Like, that's literally the point of it. And it sounds like a small thing and it is a small thing, but it's one of a thousand small things. And it's one of those kind of death by a thousand cuts type things. And with some exceptions, I mean, obviously there's still good stuff on Netflix that's new, but it's a lot of crap too, right? Like a lot of crap. A lot of really good looking crap, which is kind of the new thing on Netflix, which is. I don't know, I just. It's getting a little tedious.

Paul Thurrott [01:52:12]:
And so I Think this is just a good time to kind of step back and.

Richard Campbell [01:52:15]:
Well, it's also turn that monthly bill model on to your favor. You're going to travel for the month, cancel everything, you know, because oddly enough, they'll send you emails to restart everything.

Paul Thurrott [01:52:27]:
Yeah, I think I made this point earlier when we were talking about chat GPT, but that. That's. That's actually a liability for them. So the way that, like, a company like Netflix gets around this a little bit to some degree is like, they'll have some big new show, like, Wednesday. Well, maybe actually Wednesday. I don't think they split up. But, like, Stranger Things is coming back for their final season, and they split it into two halves, even though the whole thing's ready. Right.

Paul Thurrott [01:52:47]:
Because they don't want people to only pay for a month and then leave again. Right. But this is the thing. Like, you're the consumer. You can leave if you want. You. You can wait until the whole thing's there, pay for the month, and get the hell out of there and do something else. Like, this is.

Paul Thurrott [01:53:01]:
There's no reason for you to get stuck in this black hole. But we all do it. I mean, a lot of us do it, certainly. So this is something to kind of look at.

Richard Campbell [01:53:12]:
I'm very much in a place now where it's like, let's just turn it off and see if we miss it.

Paul Thurrott [01:53:17]:
Yeah, right. I. We're still, you know, we have these. We have two kids, and they're still semi dependent, depending on which one we're talking about. And every once in a while, I'll be like, hey, these are the services we're paying for. What are you guys using? Actually, you know, every once in a while I get a nice surprise. Like, Mark will say something like, oh, my. We have roommates, and one of them pays for Netflix.

Paul Thurrott [01:53:39]:
We don't even use your Netflix account anymore. Like, nice. But then I get these things where, like, I. I get home, I. I go to Netflix, and it's like, it looks like you're not signing in from your home location. I'm like, really? This is my home location? What are you talking about? So that I can do a code. And it's like, okay, you get to do this for two weeks. I'm like, I live here.

Paul Thurrott [01:53:59]:
What are you talking about?

Richard Campbell [01:54:00]:
Like, don't set time limits on me.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:02]:
Yeah, it's not good. This is. You do this to my daughter if you want, but you're not doing it to me.

Richard Campbell [01:54:06]:
But I don't know. I think. I think one of the things I made. The comment I made when I canceled Netflix was, you keep telling me I'm not me. And so by.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:14]:
Yeah, exactly. Right. But if you.

Leo Laporte [01:54:16]:
Like, they care, Richard.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:20]:
No, but that, but that's a good point. They don't care. But you know what?

Richard Campbell [01:54:23]:
But they send me emails every week now.

Leo Laporte [01:54:25]:
Made you feel better.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:27]:
Do it for you. Do it for you, for you. Don't worry about you. You're not going to impact these guys.

Richard Campbell [01:54:33]:
No, they don't care. But I love their new automated email. We want you backstream. It makes me happy.

Leo Laporte [01:54:39]:
So I. I've never canceled Netflix, so.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:42]:
I don't know what that. Yeah, no, I've never tried this one either. But I. I can tell you I keep. I give more money all the time. And then they want to buy like this. What's it called? Warner Brothers Discovery.

Leo Laporte [01:54:53]:
Yeah, they're trying this.

Paul Thurrott [01:54:55]:
The way they're selling it is you. It will save money. The consumers will save money. I'm like, I don't know if you know how Netflix does business, but that's not what's. That's not how that's going to work. I suppose for a short period of time, there'll be like a bundle of HBO and Netflix that will be less than the two of those things together. It's still going to be like 35 bucks a month or something. Like, it's not going to be.

Paul Thurrott [01:55:17]:
No one's saving money. So I. Yeah, these. These things are all terrible. And these things are all now giving us these recaps. Things that I don't know if you've been paying attention to this, but, like, there's more and more services doing this now. Like, this has become like a big thing.

Leo Laporte [01:55:31]:
Oh, at the end of the year.

Paul Thurrott [01:55:32]:
Yeah. Here's what you like doing it now. Yeah. Let me tell you what. Like, I. I don't think I'm gonna get a YouTube recap because I use my Workspace account. I don't. This is some things that don't happen.

Paul Thurrott [01:55:42]:
But I can tell you what. My. What? There is no AI powerful enough to make sense of my brain by looking at what I watch on YouTube because it literally is basically three things. Well, four things. Two of which are related. Like. Like scary videos that are never actually scary of things caught on door cams and stuff like that. Funny videos of cats and dogs who love babies and have a good time with other animals.

Paul Thurrott [01:56:09]:
True crime documentary things like 48 hours or whatever. And then tech videos. Yeah. So figure me out, world. Go ahead. Good luck. You know, like, tell me what my re. What was my recap look like? It's like you look like a serial killer is what it looks like.

Paul Thurrott [01:56:23]:
Like, okay.

Paul Thurrott [01:56:25]:
I don't know, like, how do you make sense of me from that? But YouTube Music, Apple Music, Spotify, etc, Google Photos today came out one the second year in a row they've done that. That's actually really cool. That's a, that's a real. That's an obvious one. But if you have any of these services, definitely something to look at. I, I spend so much time trying to find new music and my, this is so my four, three or four most listened to like albums or whatever are all oldies things now. It's like the Billy Joel seven hour thing that he did, you know, that was awesome. And I've listened to multiple times.

Paul Thurrott [01:57:04]:
It's like Sammy Hagar, who I don't even like that much, but put on a live album of all Van Halen songs, which is unbelievably good, like a Def Leppard live album. And then apparently I listen to a lot of Chicago. No.

Leo Laporte [01:57:15]:
Because I wouldn't be boasted about that.

Paul Thurrott [01:57:17]:
But what the heck is happening? And like, you see this thing and you're like.

Paul Thurrott [01:57:23]:
Oh, you know. But whatever. So whatever.

Leo Laporte [01:57:27]:
I like your Google Photos 2025 rollout. That's pretty festive.

Paul Thurrott [01:57:32]:
Yeah. So that I, I had to. The email that they sent me or whatever the picture that was, there was a picture of me and Steven Rose.

Leo Laporte [01:57:43]:
That's not, that's not good.

Paul Thurrott [01:57:44]:
Wow. Yeah. Richard knows. And I was like, I can't use that picture. I gotta find one. I did take more pictures of my wife than I took a Stephen Rose this year. Thank God there's a program more pictures of than one of my children. I'm not going to tell you which one because it's happening.

Paul Thurrott [01:58:03]:
But yeah. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [01:58:05]:
So this is not such a good idea to look back, is it?

Paul Thurrott [01:58:07]:
It's. Well, how much insight do you want? Because you know, it's like you see stuff, you're like, okay, yep, no, I did do this. What the hell's wrong with me? It's like, it's like anyway, it's kind of fun just to look at, but. And if you're really not clear on what the hell is wrong with me, definitely go to look at the Microsoft ugly sweaters this year because yikes, there are multiple sweaters.

Paul Thurrott [01:58:34]:
There. There is a Zune brown sweater, which actually I have to say no. Yep, there's one. Should I source them at. Someone had a headline of that's weird. They're not all on the same page. There's like. There's one that's like all these Microsoft logos from over time.

Paul Thurrott [01:58:50]:
And it's like there's a copilot logo, and it's like even the ugly sweater cannot escape from copilot. You know, co pilot. This thing doesn't actually have all.

Leo Laporte [01:59:00]:
The sweater is horrific.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:05]:
I know. It's the best.

Richard Campbell [01:59:06]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:07]:
Wow.

Richard Campbell [01:59:08]:
I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:08]:
This the page I linked to T shirts here. Yeah, there's a bunch of them. Yeah, there's actually a bunch of these sweaters.

Leo Laporte [01:59:14]:
I wonder if they have a cat if it's in a category.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:16]:
So I can find it here. Yeah.

Richard Campbell [01:59:18]:
What if I can get one delivered to Paul's place before I get there?

Paul Thurrott [01:59:22]:
So terrible.

Leo Laporte [01:59:23]:
There's only three in the holiday thing. Oh, these are the newest.

Leo Laporte [01:59:28]:
Youth holiday. There's an Xbox. I. You know, the Zun. I think they're going. They're going big on that.

Richard Campbell [01:59:32]:
That.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:33]:
Yeah. The Z1's good, though. But there's. There's. There are more. I don't know why they. I thought they were all there. I'm sorry.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:38]:
But yeah, there's some. There's some good ones this year, but wow.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:43]:
Boy.

Richard Campbell [01:59:44]:
Amazing.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:45]:
Yep. Brown. Zoom. Brown. That's all I'm saying.

Richard Campbell [01:59:48]:
Brown. There you go.

Paul Thurrott [01:59:49]:
It's the color of my eyes. Special.

Leo Laporte [01:59:55]:
Well, on that note, maybe. Maybe we could save this show with a little dash of net rocks. Little run as radio Mr. Richard Camp.

Richard Campbell [02:00:05]:
There you go. Brought back Nikki Chappell this week for show 1013. Talking specifically about her M365 copilot data readiness checklist. That's a mouthful. But really what it was is dealing with this. You must have your data estate in order. Problem. And so Nikki's really organized all the key information, information about how you go about making it possible to get M365 copilot turned on inside your organization without creating a data crisis.

Richard Campbell [02:00:37]:
So tagging and monitoring and like, all of the essential steps you kind of need to do. We actually dove into this. Hey, let's go pick an area in your organization. Don't do everything. Just say, let's focus on HR data and just make that available to M365 Copilot. And so just, you know, she's. She's a consultant who's done this for a bunch of organizations now. So she sort of matured the set of practices that can give us some confidence that we can get there with these tools and not create a huge mess.

Richard Campbell [02:01:07]:
That you're gonna, you know, potentially have a career limiting event over.

Richard Campbell [02:01:12]:
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. It was good.

Leo Laporte [02:01:16]:
Let me think. What could, what else, what could we, dude, that would make this show something special.

Leo Laporte [02:01:26]:
You don't have any Lithuanian vodka there, do you?

Richard Campbell [02:01:29]:
No, I don't, but there is an awful lot of vodka here, without a doubt. I, I, we've been in Lithuania before and I've had a few different things, but I went back and when I got here on, on Sunday and looked through like what are the alcohols of Lithuania? And they're famous for very strong beers for ales and porters and as well as meads. And if you make mead, then you're probably going to distill it. They call it here Midas or distilled mead. Saman is a distilled rye, but it's the clear stuff. So really you could call it a kind of vodka. Actually this is good wine growing country. And so they have a bunch of fruit liqueurs that are a byproduct of that call they call dadava.

Leo Laporte [02:02:11]:
And then wine was invented in that region.

Richard Campbell [02:02:13]:
Right.

Leo Laporte [02:02:13]:
Georgia.

Richard Campbell [02:02:14]:
Well, I would go more south than that. When you talk about some of the really old grapes down in Romania, Bulgaria, that area with the, with the Thracians, if you really want to go back.

Leo Laporte [02:02:24]:
Thracians did it.

Paul Thurrott [02:02:25]:
Yes.

Richard Campbell [02:02:26]:
But I managed to find a bottle of Starka and Stark is aged rye whiskey, which, you know, what I notice is that there's a bunch of different rye based alcohols here. Like why is rye so big in Lithuania?

Richard Campbell [02:02:45]:
So there's a reason for it. And I ended up reading a couple of scientific papers on the evolution of, of cereal grains propagating across Europe going back to the Neolithic times, because I'm prone to that sort of thing, as you may be aware.

Richard Campbell [02:03:02]:
So let's go all the way back to the emergence of the trachalias, which is wheat, barley and rye all came from the Fertile Crescent. All are variations on the same plant. These were annual plants. They were actually particularly good at growing rapidly into regions of plains that had burned. So unlike normal perennial plants that grow slowly and reproduce over and over again and last for a long time, these were quick plants. They, they grew rapidly. They built seed pods high up on their stocks that then, when then burst and scattered the seeds into the wind to expand their growth area. Many of them have horns on them so that after they land on the ground as they dried, they would naturally twist and bury themselves.

Richard Campbell [02:03:54]:
So the plant itself would Actually grow more than once in a given year to increase the rapid properties propagation. And so Neolithic peoples found these grains and they're barely edible. You know, you have to, to boil them, which was hard to do, or mash them, try and turn them into a gruel, but it's calories and their, their seed pods are quite dry. If you pick them before they fall, you could store them for quite a long time with not a lot of technology. But it's important to remember that all of these different species were kind of together. And some of the first tools, like we know so much about grain growing going back to that era, because the tools for harvesting grain, some of them are incredibly ancient. I found one archeological study for a 9,000 year old sickle made from the jawbone of some horse derivative with flint embedded in it. But even more important, that there was bits of, of grains still stuck in the flint.

Richard Campbell [02:04:57]:
So they were able to do genetic analysis of exactly the species of grains that were on these sickles. Even in the Bronze Age. So fast forward several millennia, bronze was a relatively rare metal because it relies on tin. Copper is pretty common, but tin's very scarce. And so typically you never saw farming implements made of bronze. There were only weapons or things, items for the very wealthy, but there were sickles made of bronze. So it sort of speaks to how important these cereal crops were. But they emerge from this sort of Mediterranean environment of the, of the.

Richard Campbell [02:05:39]:
Fertile Crescent. Of course, wheat moves into Egypt fairly early on and makes the kingdom of Egypt. And the reason for that was, was that that Mediterranean climate grows it extremely well. But even more important is the flooding of the Nile, the constant rejuvenation of the soil, you know, parts of the, of the Fertile Crescent areas around the Tigris and Euphrates river, the initial development of agriculture there, that turns into actually starting to.

Richard Campbell [02:06:08]:
To divert rivers and create canals to provide enough water for growing plants. As salts the land, it starts to draw it reduce river flow to the point where what's now known as the Persian Gulf starts to encroach on the land and actually desert desertifies it. But that's not a problem in Egypt, which is why Egypt stays a bread basket literally for millennia. But for those grains to grow further north to start to propagate into the culture, into those colder climes in different soils, it happens relatively slowly. The plant itself is fairly good at propagating, but people are also doing as well. But the species automatically doesn't necessarily do well there. Like we forget about this now because we've had the green revolution in the 1960s, where we bred and crossbred crops to grow in more and more areas. But this also happened naturally across all of northern Europe as these grains slowly propagated outward.

Richard Campbell [02:07:03]:
And one of the things that they discovered as you moved further north is that you don't have good seasons all of the time. The winter comes on and if you don't plant something after you harvest, there's going to be weed crops that will grow and cover your ground, and you're going to have to cut them all out again in the spring to plant another crop. And so they started doing winter cropping, winter plants. And some species of wheat did better than others. So you started to get into this idea of winter wheats as well as spring reads. The spring weeds grow faster, the winter wheats grow slower, but they do survive. And mixed into this is of course, the barley and the rye. And rye was never a popular grain.

Richard Campbell [02:07:40]:
It's quite a bit bitter, it grows slower. And so it's not as good tasting. In fact, even Pliny the elder talk about rye was only for a subsistence. You would much rather eat Emmer, a particular species of wheat.

Leo Laporte [02:07:53]:
You can still get em, but rye.

Richard Campbell [02:07:56]:
Yeah. And Emmer still exists. And, and we've been. We realize now that the COVID crop process, where they would also grow goat grass to try and rejuvenate soils because then they put the goats on it to eat that grass down. And their natural fertilization would help rejuvenate soils. That what we consider bread wheat was actually a natural hybridization of emmer wheat and goat grass. I did a whole set of podcasts on this. Maybe you can tell.

Leo Laporte [02:08:25]:
I like to bake with these antique wheats. They're really delicious, some of them. They're much better than that.

Richard Campbell [02:08:31]:
Yeah. Because we've optimized for maximum growing now and we get so much higher yields. Like the reason wheat and corn dominate the market today is because they were easy to adapt to a larger array of climates and they grow more food per acre, but that doesn't mean them the most tasty versions. And this is also the problem with rye. But what rye has going for it is it has a natural antifreeze in it. And so as you get further north with harder climate and harder grains, the rye still grows when the wheat won't.

Leo Laporte [02:09:01]:
That makes sense.

Richard Campbell [02:09:02]:
And so of course people didn't know this going back this far. This is 5,000 years ago. What they did know is these were the seeds that grew. And so they kept those seeds for the off season. And so often in a place as far north as what we now call Lithuania, you'd get a spring crop of wheat and then you do a cover crop of rye. And unless you were desperate, you probably would need it. You'd find.

Richard Campbell [02:09:26]:
Feed it to the end. You'd have something planted that would protect the ground for the next spring where it's easier to plant more wheat and continue on. And so rye naturally emerges as an important crop in the northern regions. And because it doesn't taste particularly good, you're growing enough that one of the things you did with it, to use it up, you made it into alcohol. Because the dao, you don't have to deal with the taste so much. And you it's still got the sugars in it. It's basically the same process. So you're eating the wheat and the barley, maybe making beer with the barley, but you're using the rye as a cover crop.

Richard Campbell [02:10:00]:
You're feeding it to your animals. And when you have the excess seed, you then malt it and distill it and you make a whiskey from it. Now, we could talk about what's actually a whiskey per se. Now, Starka is the name for a distilled ride from this part of the world. And it's got a clear legacy that runs back about 500 years or so. It's distilled in pot stills. It's uses a direct fire process that they sort of toast the wort and introduce some more flavors for it. And then it's often flavored when you finish with the raw alcohol, the white dog, so to speak, they'll add linden and apple and pear leaves to it to flavor it a bit before they put it into oak barrels typically previously used by wine, and age it for three to as much as 50 years.

Richard Campbell [02:10:44]:
In fact, there's a cultural element that goes back several hundred years, mostly in Poland, although you got to think back in that era, the Poland Lithuanian Federation covered this. All of this area, both Poland and much of the Baltics, all the way into what is now known as Belarus, was largely controlled by the same group of people. And so during those periods of the Commonwealth when a boy was born to a wealthy family, they would take an old wine barrel and they'd fill it with this rye spirit, seal it with beeswax, and buried in the ground to be opened when that boy got married.

Leo Laporte [02:11:21]:
Wow.

Richard Campbell [02:11:21]:
So typically 15 to 20 years, and that would be a special drink. And that's where the name Starka comes from. It's a derivative of Starkis which is.

Richard Campbell [02:11:31]:
Lithuanian for stork, as in the stork brings the babies.

Leo Laporte [02:11:36]:
That's why there's a stork on the front of it. I was trying to figure that out. Yeah, there you go.

Richard Campbell [02:11:40]:
There's the stork on the front of it. Now, this makes the Dora question, is this rye whiskey or is this vodka? Because often in the translations of Lithuanian documents, they call it vodka. But you think about it, what's the difference between vodka and whiskey anyway? A lot of people say, well, vodka is made with potatoes. Simply not true. Yes, there is some vodka made with potatoes, but vodka with everything, whatever you can get your hands on. The real distinction, you would say, with vodka is a. It's typically a high distillate. You typically go in the 90% range and then cut with water with nothing else added to it.

Richard Campbell [02:12:17]:
If you add some herbs and other flavorings, you're making gin, right? Typically with juniper. Now, arguably, what whiskey really is is a lower distillate, only going to 60 or 70%, typically a cereal grain and then aged in oak. That's what makes it. But at one point, you could have called it vodka. And there's not the same strict rules in this part of the world about how high to distill or not distill. And that brings us to the distiller here, a company called Stumbrous. So while this kind of product may be 500 years old, you know, the. The tumult of this part of the world means that companies.

Richard Campbell [02:12:54]:
It's rare to last very long. But stumbrous is over 100 years old. It was formed in 1906. Now, at that time, in this part of the world, this was part of the Russian Empire. And so actually, in a town about an hour and a half from here, from Vilnius, called Kantas, they created the Kauna State Wine Warehouse number one. And it was the first distillery in Kaunas. And it produced largely fruit brandies from the excess wine and fruit crops that they had, as well as various kinds of vodka and Starka, because Starka was a cultural product that was made extensively. Now, at the end of World War I, we get the first independent republic, republic of Lithuania.

Richard Campbell [02:13:36]:
And so the distillery goes very well. It's supported by the state. It's part of distinctive products of Lithuania. Now, that's all well and fine until you get about 1940, when the Soviet Union, which at that time is still working with Germany, moves through the Baltics and takes control and actually will stay in control until the 1990s. Of course, now you get the reversal of the relationship with Hitler, all of that conflict. And not until the Soviet Union actually collapses does Lithuania become independent again. But during that period of 1940 to 1990, stummy stumbrous is under Soviet control. And they start merging a bunch of other distilleries related to it.

Richard Campbell [02:14:12]:
The original name, of course, was the Conestate Wine Warehouse. The name Stumbrous comes from a different liquor producer that gets integrated into it a bunch along with a bunch of other distilleries. So by the time we get to the 1990s, when they get independent of the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union collapses. The organization, after a few years, is privatized and expanded again and becomes a major product offering as Lithuania joins the European Union in 2004. And their primary products are, of course, vodka, which again can be made from just about anything, just a high distillate brandy, and Danava, which are both wine and fruit derived alcohols. And Starka beautiful thing about this is it is a rye whiskey. Looks like a rye whiskey. It's got a nice smell to it.

Richard Campbell [02:15:01]:
It's a strong alcohol note. It's 43%. It's pretty pointy. It doesn't have the spiciness I would expect from a rye like we would get for an American rye.

Paul Thurrott [02:15:14]:
But it.

Richard Campbell [02:15:14]:
Is definitely a whiskey, without a doubt. It's just got a couple of fruit notes in it that are very interesting. But my favorite part about the whole thing. 12 bucks. Oh, 12 bucks.

Richard Campbell [02:15:26]:
12 bucks.

Leo Laporte [02:15:27]:
12 bucks.

Richard Campbell [02:15:29]:
I went up to the local liquor store across the street from the hotel. They had it there, picked it up. 12 bucks.

Paul Thurrott [02:15:35]:
Wow.

Richard Campbell [02:15:36]:
And I'm gonna. It was a 500 mil bottle. It's a smaller bottle. I'm gonna share it out with my friends. I won't leave it here. But it was great to dig into the sort of realities of why do they make rye whiskeys and rye products up here? Because they grow a lot of rye and you can only eat so much punkur nickel and. And rye crisps. You know, those are all really.

Leo Laporte [02:15:55]:
Gotta drink some of your rye, I think. Yes.

Richard Campbell [02:15:58]:
Well, it's just a recognition that rye is quite a difficult grain to use. And both those products are very stable.

Paul Thurrott [02:16:04]:
Right.

Richard Campbell [02:16:05]:
They're your safety products. You keep them in the cupboard just in case you don't eat large volumes of them. And so they use up their rye by making alcohol with it. And that is imminently practical and part of the many things I really enjoy about being this part of the world.

Leo Laporte [02:16:18]:
Now you're drinking the originali, but they Also make a dark side and a wild side. Have you tried the outside?

Richard Campbell [02:16:25]:
I have not, but I understand it's just different flavorants on the same base product. Now what I appreciate is, although it's in Lithuania, on the back of this bottle is actually an ingredients list.

Paul Thurrott [02:16:37]:
Oh.

Richard Campbell [02:16:37]:
And the number one thing on the ingredients list. I use Google Translate to understand it. Product number one in this bottle, water. Remember, it's 43 alcohol, which means the other 57 is going to be water.

Paul Thurrott [02:16:49]:
Yeah.

Richard Campbell [02:16:50]:
And the second product is grain alcohol.

Paul Thurrott [02:16:54]:
Right.

Richard Campbell [02:16:54]:
Which is just a simple definition of. Of what that is. That grain happens to be rye.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:00]:
Okay.

Leo Laporte [02:17:02]:
What else is.

Richard Campbell [02:17:03]:
But you don't translate ingredient list on a liquor bottle.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:05]:
No.

Richard Campbell [02:17:07]:
What is Lithuanian for hooch? Exactly. Anyway.

Richard Campbell [02:17:13]:
It'S interesting to see an ingredients list on a bottle.

Leo Laporte [02:17:16]:
I want you to try and the.

Richard Campbell [02:17:18]:
Story that's on the back of the.

Leo Laporte [02:17:19]:
Bottle at some point just to see if Stombres vodka is good vodka.

Richard Campbell [02:17:24]:
I'm sure it's fine.

Richard Campbell [02:17:27]:
If I really want to go crazy on the vodkas, I go hang in Poland because they have a vodka for all occasions.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:31]:
Yeah.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:33]:
Upset we got a box to Poland is cheese is to France.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:39]:
It's 786 varieties.

Richard Campbell [02:17:43]:
But the only place you can find a 25 year old Starka is in Poland. So underground. An opportunity to try that. But yeah. No, no, I think they've dug it up already and put it in bottles for you to purchase at probably a higher price than 12 bucks.

Paul Thurrott [02:17:57]:
They've dug it up like a crypto. Yeah, it's fine.

Leo Laporte [02:18:01]:
Anyway, a nice change to a little something local, a little something different. Not expensive.

Richard Campbell [02:18:07]:
It's. You know, you call this the brown liquor segment for a reason, Leo. Because I can find a lot of different brown liquors from a lot of different places. Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:18:16]:
You know, now I'm wondering if I can. If I can buy this in the United States.

Paul Thurrott [02:18:21]:
No, there's no way.

Richard Campbell [02:18:22]:
But you know.

Richard Campbell [02:18:25]:
I hope, you know, they're clearly making a push like it's getting hip to find unusual products. It's like.

Paul Thurrott [02:18:34]:
This.

Richard Campbell [02:18:34]:
So I'm not saying it's out of realms entirely. I'm going not bring a bottle. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing these sort of things. But I've been begging for Divin to head west forever. The best darn brandy I've ever had.

Leo Laporte [02:18:47]:
Liquor Barn has it for 16 bucks.

Richard Campbell [02:18:50]:
It's amazing, dude. Beautiful.

Leo Laporte [02:18:53]:
I might want to just. Just to have some.

Richard Campbell [02:18:56]:
Well, and it's the thing. It's like, it's Coming up on Christmas, you want to blow a whiskey person away? Try some Lithuanian whiskey.

Leo Laporte [02:19:03]:
I got some. I got some.

Paul Thurrott [02:19:07]:
Yeah, it's stork time.

Leo Laporte [02:19:09]:
Stork time.

Leo Laporte [02:19:12]:
They might think I'm trying to hurt them.

Richard Campbell [02:19:15]:
And I'm not saying you're not, but you know, wow.

Leo Laporte [02:19:20]:
They also.

Richard Campbell [02:19:21]:
Anyway, it drinks just fine. It really does.

Leo Laporte [02:19:26]:
It sounds great and it goody, goody liquor.

Paul Thurrott [02:19:30]:
He doesn't want to leave the country. He has to say that now. But yeah.

Richard Campbell [02:19:35]:
Wow.

Leo Laporte [02:19:36]:
They say that in the old days, Lithuanian men would make starka to celebrate the birth of their first son.

Richard Campbell [02:19:46]:
That's the thing. That's a 500 year old.

Leo Laporte [02:19:50]:
Story.

Richard Campbell [02:19:51]:
They've been doing it since the 15th century, since the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Leo Laporte [02:19:55]:
That's Richard Campbell. You'll find his, his other works@runasradio.com. of course that includes run his radio the podcast also.net rocks that he does with Carl Franklin. And he is a world traveler. His next appearance on these shores will be Monday when we do our holiday special. We're going to pre record for New Year's Eve. You can join us at noon this coming Monday.

Richard Campbell [02:20:20]:
And I'll be an exotic lower Makunjee.

Leo Laporte [02:20:23]:
Exotic. There will be liquors of a variety.

Paul Thurrott [02:20:26]:
Geographically you'll be in lower Macunji, but politically or whatever zip code, you will be in Makunjee.

Richard Campbell [02:20:33]:
Okay.

Paul Thurrott [02:20:34]:
Because nothing makes sense.

Leo Laporte [02:20:36]:
One of the things we'll learn on Monday, no doubt, is about Macungi. There will be no Windows Talk, but there will be stories.

Paul Thurrott [02:20:43]:
Oh yeah, I get stories.

Richard Campbell [02:20:45]:
I guess I should. I guess you should go get a Pennsylvanian whiskey because I know they exist.

Leo Laporte [02:20:51]:
Really?

Paul Thurrott [02:20:52]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they definitely do. Yep.

Richard Campbell [02:20:55]:
Yeah.

Leo Laporte [02:20:55]:
Well, I'm gonna look for a Petalumen whiskey. Whiskey. Actually, we have some. We have our own little distillery here in Petaluma. Griffo. Yeah, I'll get a little Griffo to drink along with you.

Richard Campbell [02:21:05]:
You guys, I don't know if we're gonna make it cozy. Maybe we'll just, we'll do some spiked eggnog.

Leo Laporte [02:21:09]:
You know, I am an eggnog fanatic. I love eggnog.

Paul Thurrott [02:21:12]:
I. I could probably actually, maybe we should film this in front of the fireplace. We could just like, please get to the whole thing.

Leo Laporte [02:21:20]:
Please, Would you? Yeah, get a couple of big leather armchairs, a mastiff dog.

Paul Thurrott [02:21:26]:
I don't know about the leather armchairs, but I have the fireplace. We'll see. I'll see what we can set up some cameras.

Leo Laporte [02:21:32]:
This is going to be a lot of fun.

Richard Campbell [02:21:33]:
We'll work on our best Nick Offerman impressions.

Leo Laporte [02:21:36]:
Exactly. I'll get a Yule log behind me.

Paul Thurrott [02:21:38]:
And just 45 minutes of us. Be like. It'd be fun.

Richard Campbell [02:21:42]:
It's good having a little sip. Just doing.

Leo Laporte [02:21:46]:
I like how he nursed that.

Paul Thurrott [02:21:48]:
That drink.

Richard Campbell [02:21:49]:
He did his job with that. Yeah, I. I would have drank that a bit faster than.

Leo Laporte [02:21:56]:
Paul Hot is at theat.com Become a Premium Member for all the goodness. But of course there's lots of stuff there for everyone. And his books are@leanpub.com including Windows Everywhere and the Field Guide to Lindows 11, both available at a set.

Paul Thurrott [02:22:11]:
Did you just call it Lindos 11?

Leo Laporte [02:22:13]:
Lindo's 11. It's the next edition of Linux and it's going to be very exciting. I can't wait. Lindows 11. Thank you everybody for joining us. We do Windows Weekly Normally of Wednesday, 11am Pacific, 2pm Eastern, 19 o' clock UTC. You can watch us live if you're in the club, and I hope you are. Please, if you're not on Club Twit, go to Twit TV Club Twit and join the fam.

Leo Laporte [02:22:39]:
So if you're in the club, you can be in the Discord Watch there. Although a lot of even the people in the club like to watch on YouTube. That's open to all. Twitch, X.com, facebook, LinkedIn and Kik. We stream on those five other platforms after the fact. You can download copies of the show from our website, TWiT TV WW. We have audio and video available. There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to Windows Weekly.

Leo Laporte [02:23:04]:
Very handy if you want to share a clip with friends and family or enemies, whoever you want to share it with. Best thing to do, subscribe at your favorite podcast player. That way you'll get it automatically as soon as we're done. And again, you choose between audio or video, or both. Leave us a nice review. Tell the world about this fantastic show. Mr. Thurat, Mr.

Leo Laporte [02:23:26]:
Campbell, great to see you. Safe travels, Richard.

Paul Thurrott [02:23:29]:
Yes.

Leo Laporte [02:23:29]:
Next.

Richard Campbell [02:23:30]:
Thank you.

Leo Laporte [02:23:30]:
Next meet, we will be in Makunji for our holiday special.

Paul Thurrott [02:23:36]:
I was looking forward to it. It's just like a Hallmark Christmas video.

Leo Laporte [02:23:40]:
You know, it's nice turned upside down. We might have a visit from Krampus. I don't know. It'll be exciting. That's all I can say.

Paul Thurrott [02:23:47]:
Whatever. The Dutch. Pennsylvania Dutch version of Santa Claus.

Leo Laporte [02:23:51]:
They must have Krampus in Pennsylvania. It's terrible.

Paul Thurrott [02:23:54]:
Yeah, definitely.

Leo Laporte [02:23:55]:
To punish the bad children for not being good.

Paul Thurrott [02:23:59]:
Yep.

Leo Laporte [02:23:59]:
Thank you, everybody, for joining us. Have a wonderful week. We will see you next time on Windows Weekly