This Week in Space 233 Transcript

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-free version of the show.

Tariq Malik [00:00:00]:
Coming up on This Week in Space, NASA has an update for its Artemis program. Scientists say they know exactly when Vincent van Gogh painted The Starry Night. And what does the future workforce in space look like? We catch up with Dr. Amanda Hackler of the USRA to tell us exactly what that Artemis generation could look like.

Tariq Malik [00:00:26]:
This is This Week in Space, episode 233. Recorded on October 23rd, 2026: The Artemis Generation. Hello and welcome to another episode of This Week in Space, the Artemis Generation Edition. Rod is out on a spacewalk this week, so you're stuck with me, with me and the fabulous Rick Genest of Expanding Frontiers and the National Space Society. Rick, thank you for joining in. So

Rick Genet [00:00:55]:
it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Tariq Malik [00:00:57]:
Well, thank you. Thank you. And of course, we have a great guest this week, Dr. Amanda Hackler. She is the director of education for the University's Space Research Association. And they run an amazing internship there with the AFRL, the Air Force Research Laboratory, that we're going to hear all about how it's setting up a new generation of engineers and scientists and astronauts, including an actual astronaut. But that's a spoiler. You're going to find that out later.

Tariq Malik [00:01:25]:
So, but first, first I have a space joke, Rick, because it wouldn't be the start of This Week in Space without one. And it might be an old one, so I need you to show me a little bit of mercy. So are you ready? This one— oh, I should say this one comes from Shahad Shoudhury. So Shahad, and the question is, why do the astronauts have to use Linux at all? Like the computer system Linux, you know? No idea. No. All right. Because you can't open Windows in space. Ah, ah, right.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:02:07]:
That's not as bad as I thought it was going to be.

Tariq Malik [00:02:13]:
This is probably the part where Rod would have another, like a better space joke, but I got bupkis for everybody here. So I need you all. to send us your favorite space jokes. And you've been really good lately at twis@twit.tv. That is twis@twit.tv. You can tell them Tariq sent you. And then Rod might give me like a candy bar or something for bringing in some space jokes. But we have an episode to do.

Tariq Malik [00:02:38]:
And to do that— before we can do that, we have to do headline news. So can I get some music? We'll do that. Headline news. And I nailed that one, right? I know it. But I've got, I've got 3 headlines today. One of them is really, really short because it's happening right now as we are recording, so I don't have the results for you all. Uh, but, uh, but Rick, NASA is, is basically laying out a new plan for the Artemis program, uh, to accelerate not just the flights themselves for Artemis III, but also for the moon landings and everything. And, uh, there was a talk at the International Astronautical Congress earlier in the month where we got an update.

Tariq Malik [00:03:23]:
We got a story about that on space.com as well, where we were seeing some new timelines about, you know, some testing that was gonna be going on, possibly Artemis III sometime in the summer. So hopefully next week when we have our next episode, Rod and I will have a whole deep dive about how that is going for what's going on right now. But as we're speaking, the press conference is recording at the same time as the podcast. So I can't tell you exactly what they said, but I did want to let everybody know that you need to go back and check what those updates are, or you can find it at space.com because we'll have that story later tonight. What's your prediction, Rick? What would you like NASA to say if they're going to accelerate Artemis? Like, would you want a launch date for Artemis III, or would you want some type of testing update on the landers? What do you want to hear?

Rick Genet [00:04:09]:
Well, one thing I'd like is for them to point out which milestones are the stage gates. As in, this is what needs to happen so that we know that this schedule is going to be realistic. So I'd like to actually hear their opinions on that. And then, of course, you know, questions I have is, do we actually have the workforce and supplier capacity to really pull this off? And where are they seeing that coming from?

Tariq Malik [00:04:32]:
Which, of course, Amanda at USRI can have, you know, it's got a lot of input in developing that generation that's going to be there for that too. I would like, I'm hoping we're going to get an update on, on which vehicles are actually flying on Artemis III and how long the mission's going to be. Because I've heard that it's going to be like a 10-day mission. I heard that it's going to be a 20-day mission and that it's going to have maybe one lander, which is the Blue Moon. Maybe it's going to have, uh, 2, uh, with Starship or, or whatnot. So I want like some hard, this is what's going to happen, here's when the launches are going to be. But that— it could be a little early for that. So we'll see, we'll see.

Tariq Malik [00:05:04]:
But one thing that is not in doubt is, uh, our second big story. This is actually like really timely because, uh, there was a lot of disruption in Ukraine. You know, we don't talk about politics and stuff a lot on the show, uh, but, uh, the war in Ukraine, uh, between Russia, uh, there got a lot of kind of space news, uh, over the last week because of the Starshield dropout where for a period of time, they, uh, the Ukrainian military lost all access to Starlink and, and, and Starshield. It sounds like it's back as we're recording this. I was reading a story, uh, today in the Times about how, uh, it's, you know, the president— President Trump said that he had called Elon Musk personally to ask him to turn Starshield back on. It sounds really weird what's, what's going on, but one thing that has evolved is that Ukraine has now reached out to Nokia and ICEYE a US commercial satellite manufacturer because they want to build their own satellite communications network. So I think that the, the value of an independent communications network, uh, has been shown, I suppose, uh, through this whole thing. And it's really weird that it's ICEYE because that is a commercial company that also builds radar imaging satellites, and one of their satellites has been supplying imagery to Ukraine for its military efforts and just got close, a, a too-close-for-comfort visit from a Russian Cosmos satellite that has been sparking a lot of worry too about, uh, space, you know, in-space inspection, space surveillance, and possible weapons.

Tariq Malik [00:06:42]:
So a lot of, a lot of stuff happening in orbit between Ukraine and, and, um, and, and Russia, uh, this week. And then I got one last one. This is a fun one. Have you ever seen Starry Night? Rick?

Rick Genet [00:06:54]:
Of course.

Tariq Malik [00:06:55]:
The Van Gogh? Yeah. Well, by the way, I'm here in my little space pod at the space.com main offices in New York City. Starry Night, or at least one of them, is up at the Museum of Modern Art a few blocks up the, up the street from here. Well, there's been a big mystery over what night that actually was that Vincent van Gogh was observing when he uh, when he painted it. And now scientists say, using, uh, like computer analysis, that they can say like for sure that they know that it was July 22nd, 1889, like, like specifically, like down to the fact that it was like the really, really early, early morning hours, I believe is what they're saying. And they, they were able to run the, the imagery through like star chart projections and computer analysis all the way back reversing. And the reason that this is weird is because it's July, and apparently the best guess until now has been sometime in June, around that period. So now they're narrowing it down so they can know when he was out there, uh, doing it.

Tariq Malik [00:07:59]:
And I just think it's fascinating that there's these scientists out there who, instead of, you know, uh, uh, they're so like interested in art that they want to know like what night sky that was. Because it's not the first time that Van Gogh has had this. Um, he did the Haystacks painting as well, which shows a lot of haystacks on a night sky. And some researchers did a whole big sleuthing thing in Sky and Telescope magazine to find out when that one was as well. So perhaps you and I, Rick, can collaborate on a piece of art, and then in about like 200 years, someone can find out what night it was that we posted that. So there

Rick Genet [00:08:39]:
you go.

Tariq Malik [00:08:40]:
But really great stuff. Really great stuff. Those were researchers out of, I believe it was They said that he— it was July 22nd, 1889, at Saint-Rémy-de-Provence, which is where Van Gogh was when he painted it. So very, very cool stuff. So, uh, but with that, I think it's time for us to do an episode and to get, uh, to catch up with Dr. Amanda Hackler at USRA. So stay tuned, don't go anywhere, we've got more to come. And we're back with Dr.

Tariq Malik [00:09:05]:
Amanda Hackler, uh, Director of Education at the USRA, United Space Researches— Space, Space United Universities Space Research Association. That's great. Well, I'm sure we'll get that in post, right? And, well, Dr. Hackler, Amanda, if that's all right, thank you so much for joining us. Of course. And, you know, I've got kind of a traditional question that I'll ask after that. But for our listeners who maybe aren't aware about you and the USRA, you know, what does the Director of Education do? Uh, and, and, you know, what, what's your position and what are you guys looking at right there?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:09:43]:
Well, first, uh, thanks so very much for the invitation to be here today, Tariq and Rick. Um, so, uh, my name is Amanda Hackler. I'm the Director of Education for the University Space Research Association, or USRA, and in my capacity, I provide oversight for the administration of the Air Force Research Laboratory Scholars Program Which is a traditional internship program that infuses a lot of innovation. We immerse students, high school, undergrad, and graduate students, in a multi-week experience at a variety of different Air Force bases located throughout the country.

Tariq Malik [00:10:22]:
And what was your path to space in general? This is my traditional question that I usually ask everybody. Like, is it something that you found as a kid, or was it a subject that caught your eye later on in life as an adult? How did you find a path to space? And I guess as well education too.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:10:43]:
You know, I have to tell you that that's a very good question. Both of my parents worked for NASA and retired from Johnson Space Center. I grew up right next door to Ronald McNair's family. And so space has always been a big part of my life, particularly growing up in the Clear Lake, Texas area.

Tariq Malik [00:11:03]:
Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:11:03]:
It's ingrained in almost everything. So, and education, you know, I started my career actually teaching at a community college and realized at that point that, you know, education was really my passion. I really relished in the opportunity to support students that needed additional assistance and maybe nontraditional students as well. first-generation students that had never had the opportunity to, you know, really understand what college is about.

Tariq Malik [00:11:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Genet [00:11:39]:
I would love to hear more about this, the internship program. I'm very excited about how we, how we connect the next generation to space and aerospace. So I'd love to hear

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:11:49]:
it. Absolutely, Rick. Well, I have been managing this program for more than 11 years now, and since inception in 2013, the program has just grown exponentially. We've had a tremendous amount of support through our Air Force customer and from the mentors that nurture the students and provide these critical hands-on immersive laboratory-based experiences. But, you know, it's non-traditional in that we also try to infuse enrichment opportunities. So, you know, many of these students that come to us, it's their first time away from home ever. And so We try to really nurture them and provide it and provide an environment where they can really thrive. And we provide workshops for them that includes resume writing and also, you know, workshops that teach them how to craft a manuscript for peer-reviewed publication.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:12:55]:
And what's really inspiring to see is that, you know, post-immersion, a lot of these students are responsible for you know, presenting at notable scientific conferences throughout the country, for peer-reviewed publications, and even for patents. So it's just really exciting to see.

Tariq Malik [00:13:20]:
And am I correct? So I'd seen, I think Rod and I were talking about it, you know, like about the contract renewal with the Air Force. you know, for USRA to run this program for at least the next 5 years, like as a re-up. Like you mentioned, it's been going on since 2013. But you said, I think earlier, at Air Force bases around. Does it move from location to location every year for this experience, or is it at different Air Force bases where you can reach maybe like a wider swath of students? How does that work itself?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:13:53]:
Yeah, that's a really good question, Tariq. So our flagship program is at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that's our most robust program. We support hundreds of students year to year.

Tariq Malik [00:14:08]:
Oh, wow.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:14:09]:
We also have students that we place at Eglin Air Force Base near Destin, Florida, and those are our 2 largest programs. However, we also support an array of satellite sites, other Air Force bases located throughout the country, and we really have a footprint within most of the Air Force research laboratories now in the United States, which has been so exciting because, you know, at the commencement of the program, we were just at Kirtland and Eglin and Air Force Maui Optical Supercomputing Site. And it's just so encouraging to see that we have so much support and that the mentors are so engaged and want to support these students and see them be successful and ultimately enter the Air Force Research Laboratory workforce pipeline after the completion of their opportunities.

Rick Genet [00:15:03]:
Awesome. I'm actually curious. So you've been running— I think you've been running this since the early teens. And so you've been seeing students before and after AI came into play. I'm curious about what you're seeing Like, how are you seeing the students dealing with AI? How are you seeing the mentors dealing with AI or using AI? I should say, I shouldn't say dealing with AI, I should say using AI and how that's factoring into the development of this program.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:15:35]:
Yeah, that's a great question too. You know, unquestionably, AI has just revolutionized, you know, the research that's being yielded out of Kirtland, Eglin, and other Air Force bases throughout the country. And our students regularly leverage these capabilities to support their research to a certain extent. Of course, there are limitations when it comes to things like publications. But, you know, AI is something that we all have to adapt to, whether we're uncomfortable with it or comfortable with it. And so it has been integrated into our programming. And, you know, clearly it'll be a big part of our research part of the research, um, uh, in the future.

Tariq Malik [00:16:19]:
You know, I was very curious too, I guess as a follow-up on that, because you're, you're talking about training a new generation and kind of our working title for this episode is the Artemis, uh, Generation. And, you know, you mentioned the, the experiential types of opportunities during these multi-week, uh, uh, uh, programs. themselves to kind of train that, I guess, that mentality both for students as well as, I guess, these graduate students as well. And I'm curious what that actually means. You know, is it site visits to industry makers? Is it more classroom-oriented? Or is it some kind of a mixture of the both together that the students have to embrace?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:17:05]:
Yeah, you know, I think that what we really try to practice is, You know, we really try to ensure that these students receive real-world exposure to STEM. And that does include things like access to facilities, you know, that are usually not accessible. And we do try to infuse a lot of, you know, education and curriculum into the program to ensure that our students really get a holistic— experience and a true— and really acquire a true perspective on what STEM encompasses and careers that will be available to them in the future. You know, I think one thing that is largely problematic is that, you know, students often opt for careers within industry because it's more lucrative and You know, we want to also ensure that these students understand the amazing career opportunities that are available to them through the Air Force Research Laboratory and other government agencies for that matter.

Tariq Malik [00:18:22]:
Great. Well, by the way, speaking about opportunities that I think we all have to look for, we're going to take the opportunity to go to a quick break. But when we come back, I do want to make sure that I understand how we're setting up the future scientists and explorers through this program, Amanda. So we'll be right back for that. Well, Amanda, I wish that there was a program like yours when I was coming up through school. So I feel like I went to space camp, but that's about as far as I was able to get along when it comes to training or hands-on access, maybe rocket camp at the local community college when I was in high school. But we kind of live in an age where astronauts have returned to the moon now with Artemis II earlier this year as we're recording this episode. And there is a very tangible— I don't want to call it a carrot, but like a tangible experience that my daughter, who is a senior graduating from high school, is able to kind of grasp onto to say, OK, this is now not just something that was from 50 years ago in the past.

Tariq Malik [00:19:28]:
It's a present thing. that I can work to. And I'm curious how, uh, how impor— like, what's the importance or the, or the challenges of taking like today's students and getting them either interested in STEM or reinforcing the access that they might not know they have through the program itself? You know, does it— is it easier or harder? I don't know, you know.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:19:50]:
Yeah, well, you know, I think it's absolutely critical that we begin early exposure to STEM during the formative years of education. Um, you know, we have to, to start, uh, before college. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, the Artemis, uh, program has presented a unique opportunity to inspire the next generation of students, but it's up to us to harness this inspiration and turn it into education and then careers. Uh, we have to develop a robust ecosystem that includes everybody, industry, academia, and government, to ensure that these students have these fulfilling opportunities in STEM early on.

Rick Genet [00:20:36]:
So over the— again, I'm really excited that you've been doing this for so long because now you can start to do these long studies of how things are changing, working, and so forth. I'm curious about how you're seeing the enthusiasm for space change? Because it was a very different time back in the early teens. And, you know, of course, many of us, you know, Tariq and myself and Rod, who's in the background there, you know, we grew up in a time when we were going to the moon. And so, you know, it's been— space has been up and down. So I'm curious how you've been seeing it. How was it when you started? How is it now that Artemis is running?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:21:19]:
Well, I think that, um, you know, Artemis has just created so much enthusiasm, uh, among a new generation of future explorers. Um, and, you know, I grew up in the era of, um, you know, space shuttle, and, um, I think there was always, uh, this global excitement behind this programming. But I think even now, um, you know, it's been really fueled by, um, this new opportunity to explore the universe. And I think that it has created a tremendous amount of excitement for today's students.

Tariq Malik [00:22:00]:
Is the access, I guess, with the technology of which you can reach students, does it allow either more flexibility or more— I guess what's the word? Because you mentioned earlier about having to start when students are, you know, before they get to that college era. And, you know, I'm curious if they have to choose a specialization when it comes to STEM that early, or is the available technology— we talked about AI, I think, earlier today— and instruction based in a sort that that they can develop that expertise or that specialization later on? I mean, how do you equip them, I suppose, with the tools to know how to find a focus that could then lead to a job or a position, you know, with NASA or the, you know, military space, commercial space, that sort of thing?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:23:00]:
Yeah, I don't think there's necessarily a tremendous amount of pressure for students to you know, begin their first year of college and know with absolute certainty what field they want to pursue.

Tariq Malik [00:23:12]:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:23:13]:
However, I do think it is, you know, the onus is on our community to, again, provide exposure to different STEM career fields so that they can make choices early on. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think that that is incredibly important.

Rick Genet [00:23:33]:
So thoughts on— I'm curious, uh, and you probably are amidst, you know, hearing these debates and everything like that. There's the standard pathway, STEM, scientists, engineers, that, uh, that those particular careers. Um, but we know space, you know, needs a lot more than scientists and engineers. It needs the technicians, it needs the operators, needs the entrepreneurs, uh, and that. So how—

Tariq Malik [00:23:58]:
Maybe the journalists, right, too, Rick? Right,

Rick Genet [00:24:00]:
exactly. And the lawyers.

Tariq Malik [00:24:02]:
There we go.

Rick Genet [00:24:03]:
We know more and more. I mean, space law is becoming a, you know, we realize there's a lot of holes there. So I'm curious how, how your internship is addressing those other sort of nontraditional academic fields.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:24:17]:
Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, traditionally, the AmfAR Scholars Program has been entirely focused on STEM disciplines. However, we have established a Scholars Professionals Program that is more broad, and that program is intended to reach early career professionals in, um, an array of different fields. And you're absolutely right in that, um, you know, STEM, it sounds very limiting, but it shouldn't be. Um, you know, it takes an entire workforce, you know, to make, um, Artemis successful, for example. So you're right, there's, you know, lawyers, um, You know, there's a number of different fields that support all of these missions.

Tariq Malik [00:25:06]:
Is it a challenge, Amanda, to kind of keep up on what the possibilities are, especially now where we see not so much a blurring of the lines between government and commercial positions, but in a, like a bit of a How do you say, like, spread out? There's not just commercial Earth observation, there's commercial human spaceflight, there's remote stuff, there's science as well on the commercial side or private side or research side with the AFRL or regular universities. And then, of course, there's government exploration, let alone international exploration. Is it evolving at a pace that you as an educator feel that you can keep up in terms of relating those potential avenues for the students that you face? Or is it still a bit of an accessible, these are the different areas and those aren't going to change even if the roles within them do, that you can train people in?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:26:10]:
I think there are some cornerstone fields, right? But I think that You know, it requires, as an educational professional, it requires me to try to keep pace with the ever-changing needs and demands of the industry. Mm-hmm. I have to educate myself, particularly with the advent of AI. You know, there are a multitude of new careers that are emerging year to year, and so You know, we have to ensure that we tailor the programs to the needs of the government in the future and other sectors as well.

Tariq Malik [00:26:55]:
I think, I think in terms of tailoring our needs, we're probably going to have to tailor it to a quick break, right, John? I think, I think I got that timing right. So, so we'll do that real quick. And then when we come back, Rick, you've got a quick question to follow up on, or you want me to take it away?

Rick Genet [00:27:09]:
Sure. Sure, sure.

Tariq Malik [00:27:11]:
Great, awesome. We'll come back to Rick.

Rick Genet [00:27:13]:
So, uh, I got another question I wanted to ask about, uh, the ecosystem and the community, because you did, you did bring, uh, these points up earlier. Um, so what, what do you think needs to be in place beyond your internship program, which is very exciting? And as Tariq said, if I were, if I were of that age again, I would definitely be applying to this. Um, what do you think needs to be in place for a young person to move kind of beyond this initial inspiration and actually living and working in the space economy?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:27:43]:
Well, you know, I think mentorship is really essential. Um, you know, pairing these students, um, with a seasoned mentor, uh, that has, um, garnered a tremendous amount of, uh, experience in their respective field is absolutely critical to helping them find their own unique career pathway. And, you know, fellowships are also really important to the future, I think. You know, beyond the internships, after, you know, hypothetically a student completes their PhD, I think, you know, being placed into a fellowship that can provide some early career guidance is really fundamental.

Tariq Malik [00:28:28]:
You know, we're at an early stage now, but I'm very curious about how you would see programs like this internship program working alongside some newer initiatives. NASA has come out with this Space Academy plan— Yes. —that they're going to be doing. And while it's still a bit unclear what that might mean, it is clear that there's a drive or a need on both the government as well as the military side of things because NASA and the Space Force are working together on this. to try to find a larger pipeline for a future space workforce, which seems to dovetail very closely with the kind of goals where you're looking to train a new generation of STEM-focused students who have the tools and the capabilities needed to meet a 21st century work environment there. Is that like a— are those like kind of like hand-in-hand types of initiatives. Should there be more from your perspective to give students more opportunities, you know, beyond kind of that work experience and mentorship, you know, through like a full-blown pipeline for support, like a space union for students?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:29:48]:
I always say more is better. You know, the more opportunities that we can provide for these students, you know, the stronger our STEM workforce pipeline of the future will be. And I'm incredibly excited about the idea of establishing this United States Space Academy.

Tariq Malik [00:30:06]:
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:30:06]:
Um, I think that is going to create, um, an abundant amount of new opportunities for, um, STEM professionals in the future. So it'll be very exciting to see that come to fruition. Um, I feel like, you know, with the Artemis generation, we're really turning the page here and, uh, STEM is going to be bolder than ever before.

Tariq Malik [00:30:29]:
That's amazing. Yeah.

Rick Genet [00:30:31]:
Definitely. I'm curious because you mentioned mentors before. Yeah. I know, well, it's very important to recruit good mentors. And I'm curious, you know, how you, how you do it. How does your, your team and group look at this and, and match the technical or find someone with the expertise and the ability to mentor, which are not, you know, necessarily in the same person?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:30:53]:
Well, you know, Rick, the really fortunate thing is that we have so many loyal mentors that have been with us for so many years. We don't even have to recruit aggressively. They know the talent that these students bring to their program, and so they're eager to support them. A lot of times, you know, sadly, we have to turn some away. We just, you know, there's, you know, funding constraints or for whatever reason. But, you know, it's very inspiring to see that these mentors are so deeply committed to the students. They really take them under their wing, and it's a long-term experience, and it requires them to provide a lot of oversight. And the fact that they're willing to take so much time out of their day to ensure that these students have a positive experience is just so encouraging.

Tariq Malik [00:31:47]:
Speaking about that experience, what is it like? Is there like a cap per site in terms of how many students you can have during a single session period for the program itself? Does it change every year depending on like what experiences you're trying to expose the students to?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:32:09]:
You know, the numbers typically don't fluctuate significantly year to year. And it is a highly competitive program. I wish we had room for more students, but, you know, it's all dependent on the workforce needs at each Air Force site each year.

Rick Genet [00:32:29]:
I'm curious about— I'm also curious about metrics of success.

Tariq Malik [00:32:34]:
Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

Rick Genet [00:32:35]:
So I assume you have a chance to— you're following the students after they leave your program and so forth?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:32:41]:
Well, I thank you for asking that question because my background is in evaluation, and one thing that hits home that we're very meticulous about is longitudinally tracking our students, you know, post-immersion to determine if they identify careers within industry, academia, or government, or even if they pursue an advanced degree. But I think, you know, the most compelling testimonials we get are qualitative. You know, the students will will write us a note or, you know, leave feedback that, you know, indicates just how important the experience was to them. So I'm a data nerd, and so I love going through all of the data and just seeing the success stories that have been yielded. It's incredible.

Tariq Malik [00:33:32]:
Any astronauts yet, Amanda? Right? Or— Oh,

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:33:35]:
okay. I have to tell you, my very first intern Um, uh, she actually was selected for the NASA Astronaut Corps this year.

Speaker B [00:33:45]:
Oh, wow!

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:33:46]:
And, uh, she flew on Polaris Dawn and worked with me years ago. Um, she was far smarter than I was. Um, and so she kind of mentored me, I think.

Tariq Malik [00:33:56]:
Was that Anna? Anna Menon?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:33:57]:
It was. This was her?

Tariq Malik [00:33:59]:
Oh, wow! Yeah. So, so, so, so that is a testimonial, right? All the way into space.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:34:06]:
And what an incredible person she is.

Tariq Malik [00:34:08]:
Not just selected as an astronaut, private astronaut, one of the first to go on a private spacewalk.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:34:14]:
Yeah.

Tariq Malik [00:34:14]:
And she got that ground experience with you and the program and everything like that. Well, that was amazing.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:34:21]:
And talk about a power couple too, right, with her husband. That's right.

Tariq Malik [00:34:24]:
Anil, yeah. He actually did— he just came back, right, on Crew-12?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:34:29]:
Actually, I'm not sure.

Tariq Malik [00:34:29]:
Or did he go up on 13? One of those two. Right there. So, so, wow, that is, that is, that is, that's a feather in the cap for sure. And of course there's the science and then all the folks that are, that are finding different, different ways to express their STEM interest after the program. So that's wild. That's wild. I think I got distracted. John, John, do we need to go? I think— We got it.

Tariq Malik [00:34:53]:
We got it for one more question. All right. I was, I was really curious. when you were standing the program up, if the AFRL gave you like a bunch of hard deliverables, right, about what they want to see in students that come to the program itself, or did the USRA say, you know, we think that we need a generation of students that are capable of like this type of critical thinking skills when it comes to approaching a profession in like the space environment, you know, be that on Earth or— or in space?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:35:27]:
You know, I will say that we are so fortunate to have AFRL as a partner. They've always been so collegial. I think ultimately they knew what they wanted to see in their future workforce. And, you know, collaboratively we were able to establish this very meaningful and fulfilling program to fill these gaps in their workforce and to mitigate future risks. So I would say it was a well-formed partnership between AFRL and USRA that brought this program to fruition.

Tariq Malik [00:35:58]:
Awesome.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:35:59]:
Awesome.

Rick Genet [00:36:00]:
Great. I guess one last thing to end with. So for a student, parent, or teacher that's listening today, what is one thing they can do, say, this week?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:36:11]:
This week? Wow. You know, well, I would say this week and in the long term, never give up. Persevere despite, you know, the difficulties that you encounter. Even if you're not good at math, you'll be good at something else. So, you know, This generation definitely gives me hope, and I'm so fortunate to have such a small role in supporting this next generation. Well,

Tariq Malik [00:36:37]:
I do have some more questions, Amanda, about how folks can get involved, but we'll get to that right after one more break. Let's get there. Well, Amanda, speaking about, you mentioned it's been an honor to be involved. I'm wondering how people can get involved. Now, either students who are thinking of participating, like what should they be looking at? When should they be applying? And you were talking about your long list of mentors, people that are applying. If someone is interested in mentoring these students, you know, what, what are your timelines? How can people get involved to get in to help support what you and the USRA are doing here?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:37:15]:
Well, I'm always very accessible. So I would encourage, you know, anybody listening who might be interested to reach out to me directly. And if I'm not the right person, I can certainly find the person that is within USRA. And I think in terms of getting involved, you know, that can be very grassroots, right? It can— the genesis of that can be at the community level, right? It can be something very basic. It doesn't have to necessarily mean involvement in this national internship program.

Tariq Malik [00:37:51]:
Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:37:51]:
It takes this whole ecosystem to ensure that students remain engaged.

Rick Genet [00:37:58]:
Well, very, very neat. The, uh, but on the break we were just talking about statistics, and, um, one thing I've noticed in, uh, programs like this is there's, there's always sort of a, a cliff somewhere. Um, and yeah, I know you work with high school and undergraduate and so forth, and I'm curious about, you know, there's those that are expressing interest, those that apply, those that complete, those that enter. Is it, you know, is it just a certain percentage of each? Is there a cliff between any of those? What are you seeing in the, in the numbers? Is

Tariq Malik [00:38:28]:
differential equations blockade, right?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:38:33]:
You know, no, it's interesting. I think that we've cultivated this very strong continuum, and it's very rare that we see attrition once they get into the programs. And I think that, you know, the mentorship is incredibly important, as I previously mentioned, and I really think that's key to student retention in these programs. You know, these students, a lot of them are capable of working autonomously, but having that extra layer of support from a mentor that they can actually relate to is absolutely, you know, critical.

Tariq Malik [00:39:12]:
What is your schedule like though, Amanda, for folks that want to apply? Should they be thinking about applying in the fall for the summer? Is it a rolling application depending on individual schedules per program, per base, that kind of thing?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:39:27]:
Well, that's a very timely question because the AFRL Scholars Program application period is now open.

Tariq Malik [00:39:35]:
Oh, it is?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:39:35]:
So you can visit our website. Yeah, yeah, that's a good plug. Thank you, Tariq. And so—

Tariq Malik [00:39:43]:
What is the website real quick? Is it the USRA just to do a search there, or is there a specific—

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:39:48]:
You just search it. Oh, I'm sorry. AFRL Scholars. It's the first thing that will come up in your search.

Tariq Malik [00:39:54]:
Oh, wow. That's good SEO.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:39:56]:
Yes. Absolutely.

Rick Genet [00:39:59]:
What is the— like, if I wanted to apply, what's the application involve?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:40:04]:
Well, so, you know, we do require students to submit a pretty comprehensive application just so that we understand a little bit more about their interest in STEM. And, you know, it even— if you go to our website, you'll be able to view an array of different research opportunities, and the students can downselect from the list that's provided. And then the onus is on the mentors at that point to sift through thousands of applications and identify that one scholar that they find very special.

Tariq Malik [00:40:45]:
Okay, so, so they've got until January to apply. Uh, if folks get in, uh, you mentioned it was really competitive, Amanda. Like,

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:40:53]:
it is very competitive.

Tariq Malik [00:40:56]:
When, when, when should they be looking for a response, do you think?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:41:00]:
Well, you know, um, our, our mentors start to select students very quickly, so, um, and, um, you know, before we know it, summer will be upon us, and, uh, we start our scholars, uh, programming in May, so they They, you know, go to their assigned site, participate in an orientation, and then they're off to the races. So it's an incredible experience, and I'd be more than pleased to share more information about it to anyone interested.

Tariq Malik [00:41:35]:
Great. And if— I think we had the link for it, afrlscholars.usra.edu. Is that the correct one? Yes.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:41:42]:
That's the one? That is correct.

Tariq Malik [00:41:44]:
You got it. That's awesome.

Rick Genet [00:41:46]:
Can you give us an example of the types of CVs that you're looking for?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:41:53]:
You know, that's interesting because, you know, I think the perception is maybe that you have to be an Ivy League student in order to be selected for such a prestigious program. But, you know, truly, you know, we encourage students from community colleges to apply and You don't necessarily have to be a stellar student, you know. So just because you have a 3.0 GPA doesn't mean that you shouldn't apply. You know, you don't have to have a 4.0 GPA. We're looking for a lot of diversity in the program and an array of different competencies to fill these positions.

Tariq Malik [00:42:41]:
That's great. You know, is there anything, Amanda, that we didn't ask that you think people really need to know, either as a future part of the space workforce, you know, that they can learn through like the STEM outreach that you and the USRA are doing, or about the program itself in terms of either if they're thinking about applying, why they should take that last leap, uh, or, or whatnot that, uh, uh, that we can share?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:43:06]:
You know, I think going back to my original message, I think, you know, um, as a community, it's critical that, um, we help, um, you know, the next generation of, um, explorers, uh, discover the excitement behind STEM. Um, you know, the, the Artemis workforce of tomorrow is sitting in today's classrooms, and it's up to us to help harness that excitement and turn that inspiration into education and then into ultimately a career in STEM.

Tariq Malik [00:43:44]:
Great, thank you. Rick, did you have any other questions, any other comments?

Rick Genet [00:43:48]:
No, I'm just very excited to hear about this. I'm going to be, of course, passing this along through my networks and try to get as many people to, you know, consider the application. So congratulations on this extremely successful an exciting program.

Tariq Malik [00:44:04]:
That's right.

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:44:04]:
Well, thank you so much, Rick and Tariq. It has genuinely been a pleasure, and I always look forward to the opportunity to promote STEM.

Tariq Malik [00:44:14]:
Well, thank you so much, Amanda and Rick and everyone for listening in. Amanda, if folks want to know more about the work that you're doing with the program or with USRA, where should they look to find out more about you?

Dr. Amanda Smith-Hackler [00:44:24]:
So I would encourage listeners to visit www.usra.edu The website is very comprehensive and provides an array of information relating to all of our program portfolio.

Tariq Malik [00:44:42]:
Great. And Rick, where can people find out more about the work you and the NSS and your own work that you're doing?

Rick Genet [00:44:49]:
Excellent, excellent. www.expandingfrontiers.org and nss.org. So invite all and everyone to have a look.

Tariq Malik [00:44:59]:
Check it out. Check it out for sure. And you can find me, of course, at space.com as always. This weekend at the TWA Mission '60s event here in New York City. And next week at the Smithsonian where they're going to open a whole new exhibit. So I'm really excited about all of that. But you can also find me on the socials @tarekjmalek and on YouTube @spacetronplays if you like that stuff. But thank you all so much for spending your time with us for this episode that we are calling The Artemis Generation.

Tariq Malik [00:45:28]:
And thank you, Amanda and the USRA, for your time. Thank you. You know, we have new episodes every week here at This Week in Space at TWiT. Oh, you actually, you can email us by the way at twis@twit.tv. That is twis@twit.tv, T-W-I-T.tv. And we welcome your comments, suggestions, and ideas as well as big thumbs up. Give everyone a say, say Tariq did great this week so that Rod knows that I did an okay job. And of course you can learn all about the great work that Rick and Rod are doing at the National Space Society at the nss.org site.

Tariq Malik [00:46:03]:
You can learn about space at space.com. They're great places to satisfy your space cravings. And so those new episodes, they publish every Friday on your favorite podcatcher. So be sure to like and subscribe and give us all of the great rewards— or reviews, pardon me. Rod says 5 stars or a thumbs up will do nicely, but I heard that he also takes cash if you want. So you can take a look at that. And you can head to our website at That's right. And you can get all of your great programming on the TWiT Network ad-free with the Club TWiT. So please look into that, and I will see you all in the next one.