This Week in Space 203 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Tariq Malik [00:00:00]:
Coming up on this week in space, Artemis 2 is one more step closer to launch. Could we get off the ground? We've got an amazing picture of Saturn to show you. And Rod and I get down to brass tacks about whether or not the United States is in a space race to the moon with China with Dr. Namrata Goswami of Johns Hopkins University. Stay here and check it out.

Rod Pyle [00:00:30]:
This is this Week in Space, episode number 203. Recorded on March 27, 2026: China Rising. Hello, and welcome to another episode of this week of Space, the China Rising edition. I'm Rod Pyle, editor in chief of Badass magazine, and I'm with, as you probably guessed, Tarek Malik of Space.com. how are you, buddy?

Tariq Malik [00:00:50]:
Hello. I'm doing well, Rod. How are you doing today?

Rod Pyle [00:00:54]:
We're back. This week we're going to be joined by Dr. Namrata Goswami, who is an author and professor of space security at Johns Hopkins University, who's specializes, as I believe she will tell us, in looking, among other things, she actually does quite a bit, but one of her primary areas of study is kind of the east versus west in space. Everything from civilian programs to top security stuff. Before we start, of course, please don't forget to do us a solid. Make sure to, like, subscribe and support the podcast with all your might, because it means everything to us and keeps Tarek happy, which isn't easy to do. So give us. Give us all your.

Rod Pyle [00:01:34]:
Give us all your thoughts.

Tariq Malik [00:01:35]:
I need the validation. Both Rod and I do. Rod needs it more, though, but I doubt it.

Rod Pyle [00:01:40]:
But now, to make you happy, let's go to a fresh space joke from Corey Klamoski.

Tariq Malik [00:01:46]:
Hey, Tarek, guess what, Corey.

Rod Pyle [00:01:49]:
Hey, Tarek, guess what?

Tariq Malik [00:01:51]:
What? What? Rod?

Rod Pyle [00:01:52]:
Gravity is one of the most fundamental forces in the universe, but if you removed it, you get gravy.

Tariq Malik [00:01:59]:
Mmm. Gravy. It. Oh, it. It. Oh, I get it.

Rod Pyle [00:02:03]:
Gravy.

Tariq Malik [00:02:04]:
I was just thinking I'm hungry, I guess. So I was thinking about gravy.

Rod Pyle [00:02:08]:
Gravy. Mmm. Now, I've heard that some folks want to make us into a slurry of warm gravy when it's joke time in the show, but you have the power to help keep that from happening. Because I don't want to be a stain on somebody's shirt any more than I'm already a stain on somebody's soul.

Tariq Malik [00:02:23]:
Oh, wow.

Rod Pyle [00:02:24]:
Send us your best based jokes.

Tariq Malik [00:02:25]:
That got dark tv.

Rod Pyle [00:02:27]:
We'll blame it on you on the air. And now on a headline news.

Tariq Malik [00:02:35]:
Headline news. I got, I got it. I got it.

Rod Pyle [00:02:41]:
Okay. Sigh. It's time for another Artemis update.

Tariq Malik [00:02:45]:
Maybe the last one. Maybe the last today.

Rod Pyle [00:02:48]:
It's the week before. Ooh, I'm vibrating with excitement.

Tariq Malik [00:02:51]:
Watch as we, as we are recording, we are like five days away. So six days. What is it? What is it?

Rod Pyle [00:02:58]:
It's the.

Tariq Malik [00:02:59]:
It's. Yeah, we are, we are just four days away. Five. Five. Five days. I don't know how many days away. So anyway, April 1st. April.

Tariq Malik [00:03:06]:
April 1st is the, is the, is the launch date. And as we are talking math challenges. Oh, my gosh. It is. It is. It is a hoot and a half, apparently. But as we are talking now, the four astronauts of the Artemis 2 mission are arriving at the Kennedy Space center for the actual mission. So we are already closer than we got the first time around back in February before the rollback.

Tariq Malik [00:03:30]:
So it seems like everything has been going, you know, according to plan. I heard from NASA this week. They're all extremely confident. It seems like it's an actual thing. And now we have the schedule of events from NASA, which we didn't have before. So as of right now, it seems like Artemis 2 is on track to launch to the Moon on April 1st at 6:24pm Eastern Time. And then we are off to the races and we're going to swing around the moon and it's going to be a hoot and a half, I tell you. So there we go.

Tariq Malik [00:04:05]:
That's your update. It's all good news so far right now. Let's enjoy it.

Rod Pyle [00:04:09]:
So let's enjoy it until we hit those TSA lines as we're getting on our flights to go cover this thing.

Tariq Malik [00:04:15]:
Oh, don't try to not think about that. Although as we are speaking, there is a, there is an agreement making its way up the hill. So. John, do not shake your head. Do not shake your head, John. No, we are going to get through this.

Rod Pyle [00:04:26]:
Don't curse us.

Tariq Malik [00:04:27]:
One of my, one of my flights. Just a quick aside. One of my flights home was going to be through Houston's George Washington or George Bush Airport. And that's the one that has like the 8 to 10 hour lines. And I changed it. I changed it because I don't want to deal with that.

Rod Pyle [00:04:40]:
So just, just take a train.

Tariq Malik [00:04:42]:
Yeah.

Rod Pyle [00:04:43]:
Okay. Let's talk about Saturn. You've never seen Saturn like this. This is your story, so go for it.

Tariq Malik [00:04:50]:
Yeah, I will. I will do. By the way, I'll point Out that, that Artemis 2. That confidence came because NASA had a lot of big new moon base shakeups. And in that big announcement they unveiled this new photo of Saturn from the Webb Space Telescope, also from Hubble. And it's just shiny. And we don't talk about science a lot in the new section here. We don't.

Tariq Malik [00:05:12]:
You know, sometimes we do, but most often, and not because I'm a spaceship guy, I get the feeling that Rod is a spaceship guy, that we talk about spaceflight a lot. And this is spectacular. These are, these are views of Saturn as seen through different wavelengths from the Hubble Space Telescope which has of course that visible light spectrum, and the Webb which sees it in infrared light. I like the infrared one because it has more oranges in it personally. And it's the most detailed view yet of the planet with all of its bands as seen by these telescopes. And I just wanted to kind of point this out to people because we're on like the, the, I think the five year anniversary of, for Webb and it's, you know, we keep thinking about how it keeps looking back. In fact this week it found like the most distant galaxy yet again, you know, because it keeps seeing deeper and deeper. But it can find some really gorgeous things close to home to them.

Tariq Malik [00:06:08]:
And we can even see some of Saturn's moons in this. I think it's Titan is what we're seeing in the image in Webb because it has that thick atmosphere that keeps it warm. Titan. Yeah, I know it's exciting. It's really exciting. And I just wanted to call this out. And these were taken in 20 by both of these space telescopes. And then of course they have to download the data and what do they call that, process it, process it over time so that they can show are

Rod Pyle [00:06:36]:
we moving towards rings edge on or the rings moving out of that phase?

Tariq Malik [00:06:40]:
I think they moved out of that phase recently and because it was, if memory serves, because we can see clearly in these images that the ring, the ring planes are in that nice tilt. So it's a really great time to observe Saturn through a telescope because when is edge on you can't see the rings except for a line. And that's kind of sad, but, but it's a nice view. It's a nice view for sure. And I want to share it. So.

Rod Pyle [00:07:07]:
Yeah, well, I miss one of the things I miss about working at Griffith Observatory back in the day when I was there, gosh, 10 years was after hours we'd be able to go up and use the Zeiss 12 inch refractor and look at things like Saturn because, you know, in an observatory on a hill overlooking one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country, you don't get

Tariq Malik [00:07:27]:
to see a lot.

Rod Pyle [00:07:28]:
But planets are good and Saturn was amazing.

Tariq Malik [00:07:30]:
Yeah.

Rod Pyle [00:07:31]:
Speaking of amazing for all mankind on Apple TV is getting its sixth season, but that's going to be it. And the showrunners are very happy because they feel that allows them to tell the story they wanted to tell. And you know that season five will go live on March 27th, so you'll be seeing that soon. My question is.

Tariq Malik [00:07:55]:
Yeah, it means it's going live now. So as we're recording. Oh yeah. Today.

Rod Pyle [00:08:01]:
But my question is, is anybody else sick of Ed Baldwin yet?

Tariq Malik [00:08:04]:
I am not.

Rod Pyle [00:08:05]:
Certainly am.

Tariq Malik [00:08:06]:
Do you think that he survives this season because he's like in the show, he's elderly.

Rod Pyle [00:08:11]:
Who I miss are the two that got flash frozen like a couple of foil rat burritos on the moon. Those guys.

Tariq Malik [00:08:17]:
Yeah, they had a great arc. They had a really good arc and they saved the moon. Bas.

Rod Pyle [00:08:20]:
Listen to you. Showbiz. So anyways, here it's coming. You'll get your season five starting today and you'll get your season six starting, I don't know, in a year, year and a half, however long it takes to do that kind of thing. So people who love the show are, are ecstatic. If you haven't seen the show, it's a fictional alternate history of human space flight starting with the, with the Soviet Union beating the US to the moon. And from there on we ramp up Apollo missions. We don't stop Apollo missions.

Rod Pyle [00:08:52]:
We all love seeing that. And we go on to Mars. And of course, all along the way we're fighting each other.

Tariq Malik [00:08:57]:
Yeah. And it's a really good to point out that every season is like a generation after the last season. So each season is a 20 year time jump. And so I think we're getting very close. Why this season six news is important is because I think that season six pretty much will bring them close to present day. And that's kind of like the, the, the story of what could have been if we didn't stop and we had a different approach to space expression. I love alternative history. It's really great, especially when it involves space stuff.

Rod Pyle [00:09:25]:
So. All right. And finally, give us your read on progress on the Nancy Roman space telescope. They had it on the shake table.

Tariq Malik [00:09:34]:
Well, not only do they have it on the shake ship, they put it up there at Goddard where they shake it to make sure that it can stand Launch. Exactly. They blast it with acoustic sound waves for what the conditions might be at liftoff to make sure that nothing breaks off. Right. Which, by the way, we'll point out that when they did this for James Web, a bunch of screws rattled loose. Remember that? Do you remember that, Rod? Go find them all. So, but no, it sounds like it, like it passed the test with good colors. And actually, we got news akin to this because just today, right before we started recording, NASA put out an announcement that they're going to unveil the completed Roman space telescope on April 21st.

Tariq Malik [00:10:15]:
So they're going to show that off to everyone. So it is done, it's finished, and we're, we're going to go and see how, how it does when it gets to space. This is supposed to be one of the most comprehensive space telescopes ever. And if folks might be wondering where it came from, this is built on, I think, the bones of an old spy satellite that was given to NASA and then turn into the W first project and then renamed the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope.

Rod Pyle [00:10:43]:
You know, I followed the, the blisteringly difficult track of wfirst for a long time, but amazingly, I didn't realize that that was what. Are you sure this is.

Tariq Malik [00:10:54]:
I'm pretty sure they renamed it because they were gonna cancel the project and they renamed it after a famous female scientist and then that made it uncancellable. So maybe I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, someone call me out and then I will eat a hot pepper in front of Rod on the stream. So I may regret that I said, oh, boy.

Rod Pyle [00:11:14]:
Like Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear where he offered to eat on a pizza or something if he, if he.

Tariq Malik [00:11:19]:
No, I'm going to eat a hot pepper because I like hot peppers, but it'll be like a hot one. So. Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

Rod Pyle [00:11:25]:
Okay.

Tariq Malik [00:11:25]:
I'm pretty sure.

Rod Pyle [00:11:25]:
No, you're right. The Wide Field Infrared Survey Telescope W first is now officially the Nancy Grace Roman Space.

Tariq Malik [00:11:31]:
There we go. I knew it.

Rod Pyle [00:11:33]:
Because WFIRST, I don't remember the exact year, but WFIRST was in work since the 2000s at least, I think. Wow, that's, that's some creaky hardware by now.

Tariq Malik [00:11:45]:
Well, well, and the, the telescope bones that they made for, they basically, they gave them two spy telescopes and then they were able to take them. They were Hubble class reconnaissance satellites and they were able to take that, the bones and like adapt them for this W first project because it was on the. What do they call that? The the big 10 year to decadal Survey.

Rod Pyle [00:12:08]:
Yeah.

Tariq Malik [00:12:08]:
As an important space telescope to develop. So they were able to put that together at a bit of a savings advantage because they already had, like, the bare bones as long as you, you know, got comfort that. So it's nice to know that we're done now. So let's hope it gets off the ground and everything works fine.

Rod Pyle [00:12:26]:
Let's hope so. And let's run ourselves to a break. And we'll be right back with our guest, Dr. Namrata Goswami. Standby. And we are back with Dr. Namrata GosWami. All right, now put on your seat belts because I got to read you this introduction.

Rod Pyle [00:12:41]:
She is an author, a professor of space security with the Shriver and West based Scholars Program at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University, which would be enough by itself, but no. She's also taught space policy and international relations at the Thunderbird School of Global Management at Arizona State University. Good Program is a faculty affiliate with ASU and their interplanetary initiative at a Jennings Randolph, Senior Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace and a research fellow at the Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses. Did I miss anything?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:13:16]:
No, those are former appointments, but thank you.

Rod Pyle [00:13:18]:
Well, any appointment is a good appointment, so that's pretty exciting. And as I, as I said, I picked up from reading a little bit about you. Your areas of research include geopolitics. That's a big one, ethnicity, war and peace, and many others. And of course, we're interested in the new space race, east versus west, if that's indeed how we wish to frame it. But before we do so, we have two bits of home housekeeping. You have a quick disclaimer, and then Tarek has a question for you that he loves to ask.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:13:49]:
Yeah, sure. So everything that I say is my own opinion and does not represent the perspective of the U.S. Space Force, the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government. So thank you for letting me do that.

Rod Pyle [00:14:04]:
All of whom you've worked with. Tarek.

Tariq Malik [00:14:06]:
Oh, yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. And I know that we've got a lot of great stuff to talk about here about space competition, but I'm very interested. And I usually ask everyone at the start kind of where their origins in space began. You know, how did you get involved in studying space programs and their advancement? Is it something that you really enjoyed when you were a kid and you were looking to fall into it, or is it something that you kind of found later and discovered that passion at that point in time.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:14:43]:
Yeah, sure. So, great questions to start with. So I actually talked about that a little bit of my life journey at a TEDx talk at the Rosa Parks Museum in Montgomery, Alabama. A great honor to be in that particular forum. So, growing up in Northeast India, which is the intersection of Burma and India, these are areas which are extremely remote, very beautiful, mountainous. So the one thing that I grew up inspired by is the view of the night sky. So the stars were exceptional in these particular areas, the view and very less unmatched artificial light. So in some sense, attraction to the universe is a part of the oral tradition in Northeast Indian communities.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:15:35]:
Many of the communities draw their origin story from out on the universe. And these are tribal communities. And so that was something that got me interested. But in terms of a very focused study and discipline, I would say that I was interested in studying international relations and grand strategy since high school. I've always been interested. My father had a very good library that gave me access to great world history going forward. What happened was that once I specialized in understanding Asian international relations and grand strategy in general, I realized, doing literature review, that there were very few who actually focus very specifically on the comparative study of, say, US China, India and other Asian nations. So in some sense, I came to it based on my earlier work on international relations and realizing that this is a particular area that needed more focus and more research.

Rod Pyle [00:16:35]:
So in my reading on this topic, I have not infrequently seen the phrase the great game invoked, which of course refers to the Europeans scrambling over what parts of the world they could carve up over a century ago. And applied to this new race, which, if you conceive of it as a race, is east versus west once again to get to the Moon. Do you see it in those terms? Or is this not really race for China, but just a progression that we happen to be the other number in?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:17:10]:
So I would see it more like a scramble, right? So one of her book called Scramble for the Skies, the Great Power Competition to control the resources of other space. Talk about that. So I think why I would see it different, for example, from the concept of a race during the Cold War, is that both nations were going to a particular mission together. So sending humans to the moon, for example, who gets there first? Right. Very, very specific focus in the scramble we see today, which might turn into a race. From the recent announcements by Jared Isaacman and NASA, you see that there is a race happening right now. But in the earlier framework, if you think about China, Space program. It was a lot about going to the moon around 2002 to access the resources on the moon and to basically then think about what kind of infrastructure does a nation need to build to basically enable that particular nation to think about how can we extract the resources on the moon, what kind of infrastructure do we need to build, for example, in low Earth orbit to then help you to do what you want to do on the moon.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:18:25]:
And then if at all, you're able to actually achieve some level of proficiency on the moon, you think about deeper space settlement ideas. Right. So because of that, you now see a scramble happening around the world where space is viewed not just as a support for Earth and understanding, for example, how the climate works or weather forecasting. It's becoming a lot about which nation has the ability to showcase the first economic potential beyond Earth's orbit. So it is a scramble. But I see that a race is possible from what I've seen in the last few months.

Rod Pyle [00:19:05]:
All right, Tarek's got a question. But first, let's boost ourselves into an ad break and we will re enter shortly. Stand by.

Tariq Malik [00:19:12]:
You know, that was actually my next question because Rod and I were having a discussion about if we are truly in a race or not. And when I've spoken to folks in the past, they would say, well, China doesn't know we're in a race if there is a race going on. But as you mentioned, Jared Isaacman earlier, just a couple days ago, the chief of NASA, without naming names in terms of saying China outright, referred to them as our great rival that the United States has out there. And I guess from that standpoint point, I mean, because it does seem like it's not a race where it's, we have to get there first against all out. But from the, I guess, I guess the question was, is there really like a race going on? But it sounds like from what you just said, it could turn into that depending on what happens with this new initiative that, that NASA. Because China seems to have been going on. Correct. On their own kind of stepping stone approach towards 2030, if I understand that right?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:20:10]:
Yeah, that's correct. So if you think about China space program, they announced their mission goals in 2002. So that's more than 10 years ago, right?

Rod Pyle [00:20:20]:
Way more. That's like Constellation project time zone.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:20:24]:
Yeah, yeah, that's like 20. Yeah. Nearly 2002 is when they started thinking about their lunar program. And then by 2004 in, in consultation with their senior lunar and space scientists, they started giving out dates and what exactly are they doing? And so the focus on space resource utilization, as well as identifying which areas in space this included low Earth orbit, geosynchronous orbit, cislunar space, and beyond, are important to be developed. And I think in some sense, China was actually setting the framework for the post Cold War, which is that that it's not the Apollo kind of missions that we can think about, which is about sending humans and sustaining them, but for a shorter time. The idea was about how do you actually build infrastructure that is able to sustain presence beyond a few short months. Right. And in some sense, when you think about Mike Pence's famous speech in the national space Council in 2019, he indicated this.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:21:29]:
So he basically tasked NASA. And this, remember, happened right after China landed on the far side of the the moon for the first time for humanity with a space resource utilization perspective. And so at that time, Vice President Pence, who was the chair of the National Space Council, pointed out that, well, the US really needs to compete with China because this is not a race as we thought about in the Cold War. This is a very different kind of race. This is about having the strategic high ground. So in some sense, when we think about that, and to answer your question, Tariq, China actually set timelines at that time. And they were not really competing at the time with the US they were wanting to be the leader in terms of a return to the Moon. And if you remember, at that time, President George Bush had come up with an initiative to get back to the moon by 2020.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:22:23]:
So in some sense there was some kind of assessment of what the US Was going to do. We couldn't predict at that time that President Obama would change the mission right when he became president. So, yeah, in some sense, China was setting those timelines. And at that time, they also identified the years when they're going to do some of the activities. And while they slipped on a few years because of the long March 5 rocket failing twice when they were testing it, they have somehow caught up with the years that they had put forward. And so, yeah, very steady, very focused development of capability.

Tariq Malik [00:23:00]:
That's interesting.

Rod Pyle [00:23:00]:
You know, I had gotten comfortable with kind of equating when people would ask if I was doing radio or something, where's China now? And I'd say, well, they're right about in the middle of the Gemini program, or they're kind of nipping at the heels of the command module in terms of technology. But since they put up the modular space station, everything, of course, that argument's out the window. I Did want to ask kind of a slight tangential question here. You know, when you look at the way the US Tries to sell its programs to the public in terms of, look, this is a good thing to do, a good thing to support. You know, we name our programs after Greek mythology. We name our spacecraft after famous naval vessels, usually. And that's fine. That works.

Rod Pyle [00:23:44]:
Okay. The Chinese, though, do something very different, which is they. They wrap their program deep in Chinese mythology, which goes back thousands of thousands of years. And if you read their white papers, there's a lot of talk about, you know, China needs. I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but, you know, China needs to be an integral part of outer space and control this and dominate that and blah, blah, blah. So it's not. It's not we want to catch up with the west anymore. It's that this is our new ocean and it belongs to China.

Rod Pyle [00:24:15]:
And here's why. Because it goes deep into, you know, the rabbit on the moon and all these other mythological things. I'm not really expressing this well, but do you have thoughts on how skillfully they've managed that with their public perception?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:24:29]:
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because one of the focus of my research is culture and strategic culture, primarily.

Rod Pyle [00:24:36]:
Oh, interesting. Okay.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:24:37]:
Yeah. So how I define strategic culture is how elites perceive a particular opportunity or threat. And so here they see a big opportunity in terms of. Of extending China's attractiveness to countries they want to target. For example, in the Belt and Road Initiative. Right. They're trying to build that. That kind of influence that nations would join.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:25:00]:
For example, their international lunar research station, very similar to our Artemis Accords, not the Artemis Program. People always mix up the two. They're two different things. And so for China, the ILRS is actually a fuse thing, which is not just. Just a chord, but also the actual program of what they want to achieve. Right. So now, in terms of answering your question, in terms of culture. So Chung Er, as you know, is the famous moon goddess which you mentioned.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:25:25]:
So historically, she was the one who went to the moon. There's a whole story of her drinking the auxiliary of immortality. So there's a lot of work on that. So, yeah, they name it after that. In fact, when I visited China and did film work, and I asked them the question as to how much societal acceptance is there in terms of the lunar program? Like, for example, how much do people relate to this? Right. So he said, well, you should go visit the Moon festival. There's a moon Goddess festival. And we connect that we are present there in terms of connecting it to our space program.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:26:01]:
There is a lot of education that happens, for example, at the level of schools to explain why China is doing this, this. And that's why, Rod, you notice their lunar scientists do a lot of interviews in Chinese media, like Wu Weiring, and do interviews very often to explain why China does that. Right. So, for example, Luke connects it to the historical legacy that China needs to achieve based on their culture. But he also argues that, for example, when you think about a program like Chang' E6 and Chang' E7, right. He gave an interview a year ago in Chinese media saying that, well, if a young Chinese student listens to me, what he should realize is that every program that China has built from Chang' E3 onward to, say, the research based on the moon, they are interconnected. So one builds on the other. And so he was very good in explaining why China bought back, for example, samples from the lunar South Pole, the first nation to do so.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:27:02]:
He connected it to the idea that, well, one day we are hoping that once we have a good sense of what those samples are in terms of platinum group metal, water ice, we're going to then use it to scale up the program. Right. But he always, as you very wonderfully put it, connects it to that historical sense of China's destiny and so locating it within Chinese folklore and culture.

Rod Pyle [00:27:31]:
Very well said. Way better than I did, by the way. All I needed to know to understand their approach to this, I was in Shanghai. Well, I go there every couple of years, but I was there probably six years ago, and I went to the Science and Technology Museum. And of course they have a rocket wing. The exhibits aren't great, but they've got a full size Shenzhou and so forth there. But they had a room that had a bunch of models of rockets. So they had China's rockets, Russia's rockets, American rockets.

Rod Pyle [00:27:58]:
And the long March 2nd was exactly the same size as the Saturn V. So they are a little out of scale, but golly, does that work into their narrative.

Tariq Malik [00:28:08]:
You know, I've never had the chance to be there. But unlike the integrating it into the culture, I've seen like, images where they. I think they built like restaurants in the rockets themselves. It was a McDonald's, Rod. And that kind of level of. I mean, we're all used to NASA being on T shirts and stuff like that here, but it seems like there's like a different approach to what space is and why we're there that I'm getting.

Rod Pyle [00:28:36]:
Let's get Back to that after we rock it off to a break. So stand by.

Tariq Malik [00:28:40]:
You know, I'm very interested. You kind of alluded to this earlier about what the end goals are. You know, during the space race between the US and the Soviet Union, it was get there first, you know, hell or high water. And. And it seems like there are very different goals in the US about what? Why we're going to the moon. We heard that even, you know, just a few days ago as we're recording this from Jared Isaacman about, you know, there's a decree from the president to build this moon base. So we're going to go build the moon base and do all these other things. He actually said do the other things, you know, to evoke JFK is what he said.

Tariq Malik [00:29:13]:
And so from what you've seen, then, what is the pure goal then, aside from the science there, for China to not just get to the moon, but for the space program itself overall to show, I guess, the folks in China what they're doing there?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:29:34]:
Yeah, absolutely. So it's a combination of goals. One is of course, to showcase that China has very advanced capacity to do space science. So collect data, understand it, and then share it with the world. So their scientists and academics in this field are publishing in peer review pieces in the West. Right. Nature runs a lot of articles, for example, on the Chang' e 4, the Chang' e 5. And so they, they do a collective work there.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:30:00]:
That's one goal. But if you think about it from the Communist Party of China or the larger goal, right, as to why they are investing in space, there are three interconnected goals. One is, of course, the civilian goals, which is that we become, as far as possible, capable to have a permanent presence in low Earth orbit with the Tiangong Space Station. But the Tiangong Space Station is a stepping stone to understand how to survive in space, including challenges of cargo, support, human and support to then scale it up to cislunar space. They call it the Earth Moon Economic Zone. So cislunar, very clear connection to the economy because they have to explain to their people why they're investing in this capability. So for the Moon itself, they are focused on understanding the far side and the South Pole, primarily for reasons identified by the China Lunar Exploration Program team that they. This is about three things.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:30:59]:
One, to see if water ice can actually be extracted so that you can turn it into fuel, for example, for rockets and for human sustainability. But that's not. Human sustainment is not the focus. The focus is to see if you can do automation. 3D printed building of architecture. So that's number one, number two is helium three. For the longest time, countries like China and India have been focused on accessing or extracting the Helium 3 component that is existent on the moon for nuclear fusion and for that kind of experiment, once that becomes feasible. Indian scientists in fact point out that the country that cracks this is going to be leading in the space of the way we do space or space travel.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:31:47]:
And then the final is basically to understand if you can build with the resources on the moon based on a base and infrastructure capability, rockets that can then take off from the moon to do other deep space faring activity. So the rationale for them is clearly explained by Wu Weiring, who's the chief designer. He argues that the fact that we try to launch from Earth with the deepest gravity well in the system is a fool goal because your rocket is mostly fuel, your payload is very less and reusability helps, but it cannot compete with, for example, if we have a capacity that can launch from the moon that has one sixth the gravity of Earth, right? And so that's the goal for the Moon. But they are not given up on their goals for Mars. So while they do not connect their moon capability to their Mars program, like the US does for Chinese strategic culture, they argue that, that the Moon is strategically important for its own sake. They do not connect it to their Mars program. Their Mars program is a very separate deep space program. Right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:32:56]:
And they say that, well, the Moon and Mars are very different. You know, if you think about the atmosphere, Mars is very thin atmosphere. But you cannot really say that just because you survive on the Moon, you'll be able to survive on Mars. So their argument is that, well, in 2028, the goal is to get samples from Mars. Don't forget that they are the first Asian to land on Mars surface. Soviet Union did it, but never communicated back successfully. They crash landed. So their goal was to show that in their first independent mission they were able to not just get to Mars orbit, enter Mars orbit and land, but they could also communicate back.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:33:37]:
Right? And so including determining what kind of radar support was needed, the autonomous landing. And so the goal is now to bring back samples from Mars and then by 2041 to establish a Mars base, very similar base. And interestingly, one way that I kind of vindicate or try to see if my data from open source can be validated is to see three things. One, that first of all, it's made it to some level of official media, but that's not enough because that could be Propaganda. Right. Second, what are they actually doing? Are they actually accomplishing missions to the moon? Have they got to Mars? Okay, that ticks. And then finally has it made it to official statements and official documents within the China National Administration, the China Academy of Sciences? And so seems like these missions are all within those. And more importantly for your audience, one way to really understand China's space program is to see if it is reflected in the, the 14th Five Year Plan and the 15th Five Year Plan.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:34:41]:
Right. And all these missions are now part of those long term budgeting. So yeah, so those are their, I

Tariq Malik [00:34:48]:
was gonna say, I've heard that that's a key benchmark is to see it in the documents, in the, in the government documents. And once it's there, you know that they're gonna, they're committed to the missions themselves.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:34:58]:
So yeah, they're very careful not to claim, I mean outlets like Global Times are propaganda. Right. They would say things very bombastic. Right?

Tariq Malik [00:35:08]:
Right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:35:09]:
Like China's the first nation in the 21st century to plant a flag on the moon. Very, very bombarded. But they're nationalistic, you know that. Right. That opinion pieces would be propaganda. But in the official document what I noticed is that because they are worried about saving face if they do not accomplish that, they're very careful. So for, let me give you an example. So when they were talking about lunar sample return, they actually simulated the sample return for 10 years on Earth.

Rod Pyle [00:35:39]:
Wow.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:35:41]:
And 656 times.

Rod Pyle [00:35:44]:
Wow.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:35:44]:
Before they actually did it. And so yeah, you can see that there's very, a lot of care because ultimately it's all about the legitimacy of the Communist Party, their scientific prowess and a historical lesson too that if you don't accomplish it, you lose, lose reputation.

Rod Pyle [00:36:04]:
And you know, I have to say from, from the peanut gallery here, the time I spent working at jpl, a lot of what I was looking at and covering was from Mars sample return. So talking to the guy who was working on the 6 degree of Freedom arm for the fetch Rover, the return craft, the casks that everything was going in and of course all the work that perseverance was going to do towards that. So here we're launching this mission that's going to take samples, put them in little cap tubes and preserve them for pickup and return to Earth without having yet budgeted for that pickup and return to Earth. And it's kind of been, I'm a product of my generation, I'm a boomer. But it's kind of heartbreaking to see us losing that lead that we had because there had been a lot of money and effort spent on that. Let's run off to a break and I'll try and regain my optimism and we'll be right back. Standby Tsunami. One of the big questions for me is kind of the ground rules for contested cislunar space, particularly on the surface of the moon.

Rod Pyle [00:37:10]:
So this two part question, I guess part one is what rule, what role will safety or exclusion zones play on the moon in lieu of claiming property, which we can't do under the Outer Space Treaty, at least as it's written. And part two of that question is, it seems to me, and I haven't read this anywhere, this is just me blow beating. Whoever puts down the first nuclear reactor for safety reasons can claim the first big exclusion zone, which is kind of a de facto real estate claim in a sense, at least in terms of first mover advantage. So can you comment on that however you, however you choose?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:37:49]:
Yeah, I think you raised a pertinent question. I've been grappling with that too. Right. So when the Outer space treaty of 1967 was written, I was wondering if they had kind of thought through a scenario where even if you don't claim sovereignty, if you build a permanent structure on a particular area of the moon, and as you know, the moon is the size of Africa, not every area has strategic advantage. So that means like you're, it feels like you're claiming it, right? Because you're the one with the permanent structure. From Jared Isaacman's recent announcement, we Learned that the US is now going to build a 20 billion lunar base. Right. And it's about permanent presence, it's about showcasing that sustainability.

Rod Pyle [00:38:33]:
So.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:38:33]:
Yeah. So the question you ask is vital. The Artemis Accord talks about safety zones that you have to establish. And as you said, if there is a nuclear power generating capability. What about that? So in the legal subcommittee of the United Nations Committee on Automatic Space Uncopolis, they talk about the importance of, for example, Article 9 due regard of the Outer Space Treaty. How do we do consultations, for example, if this future is coming? What about if you establish safety zone? So the inspiration behind the safety zone under the Artemis Accord was to ensure that others when they come in, have some level of consultation. It's not to negate someone from coming in. It's basically to have that safety process in place.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:39:26]:
Right. But think about a situation. If you have, for example, a safety zone around an infrastructure space resource utilization facility or a nuclear reactor facility. Right. That makes it much more complicated. Complicated? I haven't seen discussion surprisingly on these particular aspects. Right. So at the level of the legal subcommittee, the focus is a lot on ensuring that, especially from the Russia and China position that while we can do space resource utilization and their positions are shifting too.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:40:00]:
For example, China was the first nation to say that well, Outer Space Treaty Artemis Accords does not comply because it's outside of os. Right. Then when they proved that they can do a lot of activities on the moon, they shifted to say that well, we can do space resource utilization and our entire chung or mission is under that particular framework. Right. Russia was totally against it, but then slowly changed its perspective saying that from it being illegal to now saying that well, you can do space resource utilization. Right. So in some sense this is a future. I see that the nation that are the most capable, be it the first, be it the second, if they establish a permanent base where they have spent money, infrastructure their own citizens risk, which is risky, right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:40:51]:
They will be establishing zones. For example, for China it might be a zone of non interference. For the Artemis Accords it's safety zone. Once you have that, that no matter what, you will want to limit who you actually allow to come in because there would be proprietary technology there that some commercial companies might not want your you to open up. So that's the kind of future I am seeing and I'm actually concerned that we are not taking this more seriously. I have been talking about this for several years now that we need to think, think about this future and it's upon us. It can be reactive. Right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:41:32]:
I don't think people realize that establishing structures on the moon is not similar to having an International Space Station in low Earth orbit. This is where it's a permanent structure which means that you really actually take over that particular area and then you might limit someone else from coming in.

Rod Pyle [00:41:51]:
And it's on a big rock that has resources, unlike iss. Yeah, Tarek.

Tariq Malik [00:41:57]:
Well, you know you mentioned the Artemis Accords earlier there too. And one of the questions Rod and I had was it was kind of what happens. There's like, I think as of now we have more than 60 partner nations that have signed these Accords. You know, this list of agreements of how to behave and on the moon that NASA has established over time and should, you know, should this moon based plan falter, right that, that Jared Isaacman has, has, has announced as you were talking about. And, and China, you know, does build these first structures on the moon. Do you see the potential for that, that Artemis Accords coalition? You know folks, I don't want to say jump ship. Right. But, but if, if there is more IM possibilities, you know, by, with a China that already has a structure on the moon first, rather than waiting for NASA and their partners to get there.

Tariq Malik [00:42:54]:
Is that a risk that that exists or is that there's something that, you know, that, that folks are rattling sabers and, and fear mongering to say this is what we could lose if we, if we're not there first in the

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:43:07]:
U.S. well I think the way the world is being configured today. And so when you talk about the globe, talking about nations in Latin America, nations in Africa, there are 55 nations in the African Union, they have an African Space Agency. They are actually right now looking to see who they can collaborate with. Right. Several African nations have signed on to the Artemis Accords, as you know. So I think how I see this playing out is that on one hand you have the Artemis Accord that is a non binding bilateral agreement between NASA and a particular space agency that has multilateral effects. Right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:43:50]:
So India signed on to the Artemis Accords, which is quite interesting in 2023. And the reason I see India signing in is because of the fact that this allows India a seat on the table able because India after all can get to the moon today, has already shown that they can land on the moon and now they have announced their own individual program to build a lunar habitation by 2040. Right. And so in some sense when I think about the countries that signed the Artemis Accords, their entire desire, especially space faring nations like Japan, India, was that we will be on the table when that particular permanent infrastructure is built by the United States and we can actually then add to the governance infrastructure. As to how you use these resources, this comes from a particular trauma, especially for India. India did not test nuclear when the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty was established. And because it did not test nuclear, it has never been able to get into that regime, whereas China has. Because China tested in 1964, the regime was established 67, 68.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:44:59]:
So because of that India's taken choices and the Prime Minister's office pointed it out that we need to be on the table today. Now in some sense what China is doing is a little different. They haven't come across out with a set of principles that actually enable space governance. They are saying that they are going to establish accord like principle structure with the international Lunar Resuscitation Space Governance mechanism. Right. So they're solely focused now on partnering to build space technology and capacity together now when you want to. So for example, say a big nation A big space faring nation in Asia like India or Japan joins with China to build a base on the moon. Right.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:45:44]:
Given the geopolitical nature of space investment, given the fact that, that Japan and India sees China's claims, for example, on territory here on Earth, which is theirs, which they argue is their territory, very unlikely they will jump ship. Right. In terms of that context now that's those two nations I cannot see, but I can see some nations that are in the developing world that sees that. Well, China has actually built capacity. They are offering it to us in terms of enabling our own infrastructure, our ability to get to the moon. And for some reason the US does not, is not able to do it. Right. Because it's just announced it today.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:46:25]:
China announced it in 2002, 2003, much earlier. Right. And they're showing capability. So that could happen. That could happen. That if you cannot be there first and are able to establish presence in strategic real estate, which is the moon, the country that does it first will have an advantage to my mind.

Tariq Malik [00:46:47]:
Yeah. Wow.

Rod Pyle [00:46:48]:
Boy, you know, we're getting close to the end here and I've, I think we've gotten through half the questions, maybe 40%, so we may have to ask you to come back. But I guess one that kind of is a natural here is, you know, besides the lunar surface, there's, there's contested space in orbit as well, and lunar in general, or potentially contested space, let's put it that way, primarily east, west us, China, but others as well. From your perspective, since you're kind of an insider here, what is the role of Space Force if this becomes a contested area? Because when it was first being sold to us in the mid 2000 teens, and there's a little bit of inference here, but you know, the idea kind of came across, at least in the administration is, and I'm only exaggerating slightly, basically we're going to have lantern jawed military guys in Viper fighters zipping around in orbit, shooting at each other. I don't think it'll ever be crude, but maybe it is. But I mean, what forms does this take in your understanding?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:47:59]:
Yeah, so if you look at the latest executive order that the President put out called American Space Superiority, there is tasking for the US Space Force to establish cislunar space domain awareness, first of all to understand what's out there and then to build capacity to be able to respond to some level of eventuality if it happens there. Right. So if you think about orbit, we already know what the Space Force does. Right. It basically Enables space assets to be used for joint operations. This includes intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, missile tracking, low Earth orbit, constellation structures help in that as well. And then geosynchronous orbit for nuclear command control. But when it comes to CIS lunar space, I think the Space Force is only recently waking up to the fact that once, because it's a new service, it was established in 2019, that its area of responsibility extends to that level.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:48:59]:
Right. And so right now I think it's trying to understand and focus on what would that mean to develop cislunar SDA in the future when we actually have a base, for example, a permanent base that Bai Zaqman just announced and the US is hoping to achieve by the2030s where we will have scaling up, including American citizens. I can see the Space Force doing activities like responding to say, a disaster very quickly. NASA is not geared and built towards, towards that, especially if there is escalation of dispute, for example, some level of response there. And also enabling, for example, as the U.S. navy is doing for us in the oceans, enabling U.S. commerce. So if we have commercial activity, I can see the Space Force playing that role, enabling that the access routes are free, including not just for us, but for our allies and partners that Tariq pointed out in terms of the Artemis Accord.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:49:55]:
So I think when I hear the allies and partners sign the Artemis Accord, there is an expectation that the U.S. not just NASA, but the space Force, will also play a role in this future, including the role of securing lines of communication.

Tariq Malik [00:50:13]:
You know, we've talked a lot about this, this, this great race, if we're going to call it that, you know, with, with between the US and China. But you, you mentioned something that was, I think is really important, important is that there are other space agencies that are out there and a lot of them are targeting them. And you mentioned India in particular. And it reminds me that, you know, we didn't have confirmation that there was water ice on the moon until Chandrayaan, you know, the orbiter and the essential findings that that mission made for that. And then we've seen the lunar landing progress that's going on there. And, and is it, is it, is it possible or do you see just in your research that there's, there's, there's an over focus on this, this kind of dual power, you know, race, if you, if we're going to call it that, when, when really there's, there could be a lot of other players that are, that are just, just, you know, just as in the running, if we're going to Call it this race then, you know, as, as the US and China there. Because I could see a lot of, a lot of wiggle room, you know, where, where with all these different stages going forward about, you know, who might, who might, you know, get where first, you know, when it comes to the moon.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:51:33]:
Yeah, I mean, specifically for the moon. Right. So the, I think the biggest shift that has happened in the post Cold War period is that you have nearly 76 nations establishing space programs and not just focused on what space, low Earth orbit can do for us on Earth, including navigation, financial transactions, communication, but also what can we do beyond that to assist lunar space. And beyond what this has done is that I always say that the words you use really matter. The focus that the US has is so much on missions. And unlike that, nations in Asia and Africa talk about activities instead of mission. So that's a big change. When you talk about, when you think about space in terms of the activities you can do, that changes the game.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:52:23]:
Right. So in that context the moon is also seen as. What kind of activity can you generate? Economic, commercial, military, what is it? Right. So what I'm noticing is that besides India, Japan, Japan has been focusing on developing the capability to get to the moon. They, in their perspective it was not a success with their slim lander that topple, but I would think that it was a success because they communicated back and they were able to find the problem, the solar panels. The issue. You have Australia now interested in the moon, you have Turkey, it's fascinating. You have nations in ASEAN that are thinking about whether we can join a particular lunar infrastructure, infrastructure development capability.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:53:07]:
India, Japan signed an agreement to go back to the moon to now confirm where the water is, specifically to build a base with the Chandrayaan 5. So there's a lot of interest on the moon. And I think in some sense it has been inspired by what China accomplished in the last few years and their missions to the lunar far side sample return. And by the way, the one thing that I don't think people realize is that China is also building a new map for the moon. They just released it with their data, not their Apollo data. So the Chung er brought back a lot of data and now they have done this beautiful pictorial depiction of the moon of where the resources are, where is the water ice. And so that is galvanizing a lot of activity from other nations and, and interest. And so.

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:53:59]:
Yeah, and commercial too. Japan. Oh, the other thing which is so important with the moon is regulation. Nations have established very specific regulation to enable their commercial sector to go and do space resource utilization. Ispace is one.

Tariq Malik [00:54:17]:
That's great.

Rod Pyle [00:54:18]:
Wow. Well, I've got a whole list of questions hanging on here, but they're going to have to wait. I want to thank everybody for joining us today. For everybody, episode 203 of this Week in Space that we call China Rising with Dr. Namrata Goswami. Nami, can you remind us where you might best follow your work online?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:54:34]:
Yeah, I think the best place is LinkedIn.

Rod Pyle [00:54:38]:
Okay. And where can we find your book, Scramble for the Skies?

Dr. Namrata Goswami [00:54:43]:
It's in the Bloomsbury website, but I recommend Amazon because Amazon gives discounts, so. Yeah, so that's where you'll find it. And I would recommend buying the paperback because it's a lot cheaper.

Rod Pyle [00:54:56]:
Yeah, which is what I did. Haven't read it yet, but I've got it. Tarik, where should we look for you in webland?

Tariq Malik [00:55:02]:
Well, you can find me at space.com as always, on the socials, @tariqjmalik on YouTube, @spacetronplays, and hopefully soon with Rod at Artemis 2 at NASA Mission Control at the Johnson Space Center. If the stars align and we get off the ground, it'll be really exciting to see.

Rod Pyle [00:55:22]:
And of course, you can find me at pylebooks.com or@astermagazine.com and as my good pal mentioned, possibly. Hopefully. I hope. Fingers crossed. In Houston next week, haunting Mission control for the Artemis 2 mission. God willing and the river don't rise, as John Wayne used to say. Remember, you can always drop us a line at twis@twit.tv. We welcome your comments, suggestions, ideas, space jokes and insults for Tarik and new episodes.

Rod Pyle [00:55:48]:
This podcast published every Friday on your favorite podcaster. So make sure to likes and subscribe. We'll take five stars, 3,010 issues. Whatever you got, just give us five or something. Because we need to show the network that we're worth their trouble. And you can follow the TWiT Tech Podcast Network @TWiT on Twitter and on Facebook and Twitch.tv and Instagram. Thank you very much. Thank you, Nami for joining us.

Rod Pyle [00:56:09]:
It was a real pleasure having a good day. I hope we can do this again and we'll see you all next week. Take care, everyone. And go Artemis 2.