TWiT+ Club Shows 761 Transcript - Media Club With Mikah #2

Please be advised that this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word-for-word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-free version of the show.
 

TWiT.tv [00:00:00]:
This is TWiT.

Mikah Sargent [00:00:03]:
Hello and welcome to Media Club. If you like media, well, then this is the perfect place for you. We have been doing this now once, and this is our second time. And the first time we watched The Fifth Element. This time we watched the 1999 film The Matrix, and we'll be talking about it today on the show. I want to remind I want to remind everybody that you are invited, encouraged, welcome to participate in this. That's part of the fun of the club. So if you have thought— I mean, and listen, you can be an audio-only person.

Mikah Sargent [00:00:46]:
Of course, I'm reading your comments as we're going along to see what people are saying. So we've got that as well. But always feel free to, you know, become part of the conversation if you feel equipped to do so. Now, The Matrix. 1999 was the year. And I have to tell you, so Joe, I should also say I'm Micah Sargent. I forgot about that. Joining us today, the wonderful Joe Esposito, as well as Anthony Nielsen, all here.

Mikah Sargent [00:01:18]:
Thank you for being here, gentlemen. We appreciate it.

Anthony Nielsen [00:01:22]:
Glad to be here.

Mikah Sargent [00:01:24]:
And let's get into it. I didn't know—

Anthony Nielsen [00:01:27]:
or should we start with the, uh—

Joe Esposito [00:01:29]:
Oh, that's right. Yeah, wait.

Mikah Sargent [00:01:30]:
Oh, that's, that's so true. Okay, this is really exciting. Um, leading up to—

Joe Esposito [00:01:34]:
I forgot about this—

Mikah Sargent [00:01:35]:
to doing The Matrix, uh, Joe messaged me and he said, can you send me video of you saying— I'm not gonna even say what it is, maybe some of you'll guess— send me video of you saying this. And I was like, not only am I gonna do that, I'm gonna send you a video with a green screen behind me because I know you're gonna do something wild. And You did. And let's roll it.

Anthony Nielsen [00:02:08]:
Whoa.

Joe Esposito [00:02:11]:
Buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, 'cause Kansas is going bye-bye.

Mikah Sargent [00:02:41]:
Welcome to an event. Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is.

Joe Esposito [00:02:59]:
You have to see it for yourself.

Mikah Sargent [00:03:03]:
Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. Joe, thank you so much for doing that. Just outstanding work. So, leading up to this, you mentioned, Joe, that this trailer was something that always stood out to you, the original trailer. And I have to be honest, I remember— watching The Matrix as, you know, a relative youngster, so much so that I can remember my mom saying, cover your eyes, at different parts. So that clearly means that I have no recollection of seeing the trailer on TV.

Mikah Sargent [00:03:48]:
So I wanted to ask you before we get into things, do you recall hearing about this film being made, maybe seeing the trailer? Were you excited about it at the time? Confused about it? What were your feels?

Joe Esposito [00:04:02]:
You're asking me or?

Mikah Sargent [00:04:03]:
Yeah, yeah, sorry, Joe, yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:04:05]:
Yeah, I remember hearing that Keanu Reeves was in a science fiction film. I don't remember before the trailer knowing much about it, but, you know, and I knew who Keanu Reeves was. I wouldn't necessarily say I was a big Keanu Reeves fan. I liked him, but I didn't necessarily follow everything. And then I remember seeing the trailer and the trailer was, I mean, I immediately knew I had to see the movie for 2 reasons. One, there's a snippet of it which wasn't played in that video because it probably would get caught by something. But there's a snippet of a Crystal Method song, and I'd gotten huge into the Crystal Method from The Replacement Killers in '97. And I was big into electronic music, which I still am, and that really kind of was the big thing.

Joe Esposito [00:04:45]:
So when I heard that, I was like, oh, good music choices. And then the Enigma song that they use for the back half is still one of my favorite uses of music that doesn't seem to fit what it's showing.

Mikah Sargent [00:04:56]:
Oh.

Joe Esposito [00:04:56]:
And yet it does convey the kind of grandiose nature of it, like how big the movie was gonna be.

Mikah Sargent [00:05:02]:
Uh-huh.

Joe Esposito [00:05:02]:
And I think it's also a great trailer in that once you see the movie, you realize that a lot of things from the end of the movie are in it, but watching it doesn't give it away. So you're seeing a lot of things that later will become big moments later in the film. They're in the trailer, but it doesn't do what a lot of modern trailers do where it just tells you the whole plot.

Anthony Nielsen [00:05:23]:
Right.

Joe Esposito [00:05:23]:
So you really don't know what it is, but you're just like, okay, this looks wild. So I was aware of it, and as soon as I saw the trailer, I knew I had to see it day one. So yeah, it was— that was one of the big trailers for me.

Mikah Sargent [00:05:32]:
The context of it is not there. And so, yeah, everything just feels like, ooh, what's that going to be? How's that? And you're right, trailers these days— in fact, my significant other and I will kind of start a trailer and then oftentimes stop halfway through because we're like, okay, we got enough of what this is going to be. We don't want any more spoilers, especially with comedy stuff. It feels like all the good jokes get dropped in there. Now, Anthony, you're a little bit older than I am. Do you remember the trailer?

Joe Esposito [00:05:58]:
Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [00:05:58]:
Yeah. Um, no, no, I, I went into this cold watching it at a friend's house. So it was, uh, definitely like, I, I can remember the living room, like the, the CRT TV.

Mikah Sargent [00:06:11]:
Oh my God.

Anthony Nielsen [00:06:12]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:06:12]:
It was, uh, that's wild. A long time ago.

Anthony Nielsen [00:06:16]:
Yeah. I, I'm trying to think, like, I must've been in like 8th grade or something or, or something like that. But, um, definitely, uh, You know, you said you watched it at a friend's house.

Mikah Sargent [00:06:26]:
So did that—

Anthony Nielsen [00:06:27]:
Yeah, he was like, or, oh yeah. So maybe a year later. So it might've been like, you know, freshman or something, but it was, yeah, like on DVD or VHS. And, uh, like, I didn't know anything about it. He was just like, you gotta see this. And we had a group there and like, yeah, definitely a very informative movie of my, uh, my youth.

Mikah Sargent [00:06:48]:
Wow. So. With this film, something that was fascinating, I had no idea— we're going to talk about kind of the behind the scenes leading up to it, and then we'll get into the film itself. First and foremost, when the Wachowski siblings pitched this film, they shopped it to a bunch of different studios, wrote the script in the mid-'90s, of course, and it was Warner Bros. who were pretty sure that they were going to take it. However, they had trouble visualizing it.

Joe Esposito [00:07:19]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:07:19]:
And so the story goes that the siblings commissioned comic artists to— I believe it was Jeff Darrow who ended up working on the film itself, and Steve Skroce. I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that, but they basically storyboarded the entire film and made what ended up being like a bound comic book, pretty much. But after that, they said, okay, you know, the executives were starting to get it. Okay, maybe. But the fact is, Wachowski siblings, you've never done this before, so—

Anthony Nielsen [00:07:49]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:07:51]:
Well, we don't really want to invest a bunch of money in you. So, they ended up kind of having to prove themselves by directing the movie Bound from 1996. And that one ended up winning— I believe it won awards, or at least it was critically acclaimed, and was the proof in the pudding moment to, okay, we're going to give you the budget that you need for this, of $63 million, earning $400 million.

Joe Esposito [00:08:17]:
Wow.

Mikah Sargent [00:08:17]:
$466 million worldwide, and it became the first DVD ever to sell more than a million copies in the US. And so people sometimes say that The Matrix is responsible for DVDs, for people sort of leaning into the DVD format as a concept. And I thought that was interesting. I honestly didn't know about the Wachowski siblings' history when it came to needing to kind of prove themselves. And it, you know, I'm so used to, I think these days, just people already having that level of, you know, of ability and history. And so you go, okay, yeah, here's the money that you need. But yeah, did you know about this? Have you seen the— especially we thought about you, Joe, the comic book, the sort of storyboards.

Joe Esposito [00:09:15]:
Did you—

Mikah Sargent [00:09:16]:
have you had a chance to see any of those?

Joe Esposito [00:09:17]:
I've seen them. I own a Jeff Darrow art book. I have right here The Matrix. Oh, of course, put it in front of my face, moron, so you can't hear me. Yeah, Matrix. This is the original first issue of this graphic novel that I've had for however many years now.

Mikah Sargent [00:09:32]:
Love it.

Joe Esposito [00:09:32]:
Of all the different artists that are in there, Jeff Darrow is one of them. Oh yeah, I'm a big Jeff Darrow fan. As an artist, I hate him because the level of detail he manages to convey into things will melt your eye sockets. And some of his designs are one-to-one what's in the film. It's just amazing. So yeah, I knew about what I did. I knew about the Wachowskis having to make Bound, which I'm very happy they were forced to make Bound 'cause I'm a Bound fan. I don't know if we'll ever cover it on the Media Club, but it's a movie, so you should watch it, everybody.

Joe Esposito [00:10:02]:
It's a good one. But I knew about that, which is kind of wild to me that, 'cause again, like you, I'm sort of used to, oh, they recognize like Backroom style. Oh, this person has talent. We're just gonna give them a budget.

Anthony Nielsen [00:10:14]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:10:14]:
And that's more of a modern thing now. But at that time, that, that comic— I've seen scans of it and it's, it's just beautiful work. It's one of those things where now I'm kind of glad that Warner Brothers were the way they were because it got us this artwork. And it really just, I think, helped to flesh out the tone of the movie in a lot of ways. Because I don't know— and Steve Scroce is the other artist— but if those artists hadn't been involved in the making of it, I wonder if it's like a Syd Mead situation with Blade Runner. Would it have been the same without those artists kind of fleshing out the visuals to help them along, or would we have had a different looking movie? It's hard to say. Uh, you know, it's a— what-ifs are always impossible. But, um, I knew about the history of that because I've been a Jeff Darrow fan for a long time, because he's just a magnificent artist.

Joe Esposito [00:10:57]:
If you've never seen his work, go look up his stuff like Hard Boiled and, uh, Rusty and the, the Big Guy, that type of stuff. It's just beautiful, beautiful work.

Mikah Sargent [00:11:05]:
Now, another thing that I found interesting, this was all or primarily, mostly shot in Sydney, Australia, at Fox Studios. So the American metropolis that we see at times is actually Sydney, Australia. You can see some of the landmarks, Martin Place, uh, and that's, that's like where the woman in the red dress walks by. And so if you are an Australian, particularly one who lives in Sydney, perhaps you would have recognized some of the stuff that was going on. This film, 4 Oscar nominations, 4 wins for editing, sound, sound effects editing, and visual effects. That is 4 for 4, beating out Star Wars: The Phantom Menace in every category.

Joe Esposito [00:11:52]:
Rightfully so, everybody. Rightfully so.

Mikah Sargent [00:11:56]:
And that's, you know, Scrappy at the time, this $63 million cyberpunk film ended up out-Oscaring all of the other competition that was there. And I— of course, you have different actors that have different levels of commitment. But when it came to this film, the principal cast reportedly all had to spend 4 months in training. And they did so under the choreographer Yuen Woo-ping, who was a kung fu choreographer primarily. And so, they— That is part— I have to tell you, I love a well-choreographed fight scene. It's one of my favorite things. And I mean, this film is full of them.

Joe Esposito [00:12:43]:
Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [00:12:44]:
Yeah, I was just saying, like, it definitely kind of like set a new standard for Hollywood anyways, right? Like, actors training for months on end wasn't like a normal thing back then. And now it's pretty commonplace.

Mikah Sargent [00:12:57]:
And this film has something else that I didn't know, which is a bit of a pattern of actors hiding injuries. So, there are 2 instances that are very well known. One is that Keanu Reeves had just finished having spinal surgery. His vertebrae in his neck were fused.

Anthony Nielsen [00:13:20]:
Mm.

Mikah Sargent [00:13:21]:
And so, this was from— I was trying to figure out, like, what caused this in the first place, and apparently, it was from years of physical movie roles, of course, but also intense racquetball. So, just be aware that racquetball can cause issues, but mainly it was multiple motorcycle accidents. So they had to, like, fuse part of his spine in order to relieve pressure on his spinal cord because he was starting to lose feeling in his legs. He didn't have the balance that he once had. He was falling down in the shower. And so right before boot camp, he did this surgery called an ACDF, and They had put, like, a metal plate in. He was in a neck brace during a lot of the practice. Yeah, there you go.

Mikah Sargent [00:14:09]:
And so, for the first, I think, 2 months of the 4 months, he couldn't kick. He wasn't able to kick yet. And so, they had to kind of adjust the training for him. But yeah, he didn't show up, or he didn't tell anyone that he was going to go have the surgery. He just showed up and was ready to go because he was worried about losing the role. And then another issue, Carrie-Anne Moss, at one point, and we'll talk about it a little bit more when we get there, she injured her ankle and then kept that a secret because she was worried she would lose the role if she didn't. Really kind of— I mean, it makes sense, but also, I had no idea that, you know, especially Keanu Reeves having that level of injury. And so, maybe you'll notice a little bit of stiffness at times, but...

Mikah Sargent [00:14:55]:
I didn't pick up on it. Um, did you all know about the, the neck stuff?

Anthony Nielsen [00:15:00]:
It was all like— I, I went out and bought the DVD and went, you know, watched every single feature, and like a lot of that stuff was in there.

Mikah Sargent [00:15:09]:
Wasn't it? That's good. Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:15:10]:
Uh, I was gonna say this, the special features have a lot about that. So that, that's— I remember that, and it's, um, it's actually fairly common. And a lot— like, if you watch a lot of Hong Kong action films, you start finding out that a lot of those performers are, you know, working under terrible injuries and they just keep going because that's the culture for it. Whereas— and by the way, about Carrie-Anne Moss, it is criminal to me that she's not mentioned in the trailer like Keanu Reeves and Laurence Fishburne are, because she's as important to this movie as the two of them.

Mikah Sargent [00:15:41]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:15:41]:
It is literally the trinity of main actors and they don't mention her, which I'd forgotten. And it's just such an— I mean, I don't know what it's from. I can guess, but it's such an oversight because, man, she's awesome in this. So she should be in that trailer.

Mikah Sargent [00:15:53]:
God, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. And in fact, the film opens on— now that we're getting into the plot of it— well, actually, no, before we get into the plot, just general overall feelings about the film. It sounds like you both really liked it. Did you walk away your first time wanting more? Did you walk away your first time kind of being satisfied? Or did you walk away going, Wow, there were dozens of things they could have done differently. And I've, uh— we'll start with you, Joe.

Joe Esposito [00:16:24]:
Uh, well, okay, the, the, the— you know how talk— people talk about going to the theater and the communal watching experience, and it's this magical thing? Okay, I went to movies a lot as a kid. I think that's 90% nonsense because people have always been terrible in theaters, making noise, talking, all that stuff. But there are exceptions, and this is one of the 2 movies where the theater experience could never be replicated ever again in my life, I'm sure. One was when I went to see Akira, I know I'm supposed to pronounce it Akira, but I'm white and American, I'm sorry. So it's Akira for me. They remastered it and redubbed it, and I saw that and it was beautiful because it was a moving work of art. But then this one, this was this thing where when everybody went in there, nobody I think really knew what it was going to be. And over the course of it, you could feel everybody in the room starting to realize what it was.

Mikah Sargent [00:17:09]:
Wow.

Joe Esposito [00:17:10]:
And when there's a point where Neo is supposed to run and he turns to fight, and I and I've never experienced this ever in any other venue, a guy down in the front row stood up and— and I'll use the family-friendly word— and said, yeah, fudge him up, Neo! And the whole place went crazy.

Mikah Sargent [00:17:26]:
And that was awesome. Awesome.

Joe Esposito [00:17:28]:
So I'm like, you're never gonna beat that, man. You just can't beat something like that. So that was— that's one of the memorable experiences of my young life, was going to a theater when that guy stood up and everybody just roared. And it was awesome. It was fantastic. So I was ready for more of this. And I like the other 2 movies. I know a lot of people don't.

Joe Esposito [00:17:44]:
So I've always liked what What the Wachowskis have done.

Mikah Sargent [00:17:47]:
Uh, Anthony, when you watched it at your friend's house, were you, were you sold on it?

Anthony Nielsen [00:17:52]:
Oh yeah, my mind was blown. Like, I was at the right age, didn't know it. Like, especially going in blind too, it's like you're primed for, for, uh, quite a shock. And, uh, yeah, no, top, definitely top 5, um, of mine.

Mikah Sargent [00:18:08]:
Wow, that's cool.

Anthony Nielsen [00:18:09]:
That's cool. Pushed me to, like, you know, one of the movies that got me into the whole video side and everything.

Joe Esposito [00:18:15]:
Oh, wow.

Anthony Nielsen [00:18:16]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:18:16]:
Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [00:18:17]:
And we'll have to—

Mikah Sargent [00:18:17]:
we'll especially have to talk about that aspect of it as well, because, of course, bullet time is very popular as a, you know, the movie technique that took place. So, as Joe, you mentioned, not seeing Trinity in the trailer, a little bit odd because it does begin with Trinity, Carrie-Anne Moss, and you see agents arrive, you see her take on all of these officers or guards, and then it kind of quickly moves along to us being introduced to Neo. But during this, of course, that freeze kick that takes place, the bullet time, we know now, shortly after, about how there was this ring of cameras being used and firing the sequence around the actor, and then the sort of interpolation that needed to take place.

Joe Esposito [00:19:12]:
Right.

Mikah Sargent [00:19:14]:
That, of course, is part of the reason why the team won the Oscar that year.

Joe Esposito [00:19:21]:
I—

Mikah Sargent [00:19:21]:
Bullet time is obviously, I mean, to this day, still amazing. I think about how, for me, it's more interesting when it's— it feels just so novel. And just the ingenuity that's involved with Being able to pull that off. Now, because again, I didn't watch it until I would say a little bit later, because I would have seen it on DVD or something. I'm curious, leading up to the actual launch of the film, Joe, were there stories or anything that you saw about— assuming you saw the trailer and then you got interested and wanted to learn more?

Joe Esposito [00:20:06]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:20:07]:
Did we know about the production stuff beforehand, or was that very much something that, like, you didn't get until the DVD special effect— or, uh, special features came out?

Joe Esposito [00:20:18]:
I sort of remember that there was something on— maybe it was Entertainment Tonight or something— where they talked about the technical aspects of it, but it was very brief. I mean, all those— whenever you watch those old shows, it's not like YouTube now where you have a 4-hour deep dive on stuff. So it was like a 4-minute hit or a 5-minute hit or something like that, and they were just briefly showing it. And I remember them talking They didn't show the whole ring, but I remember them talking, and they had a couple of the cameras set up to the person that I don't remember. I think it was somebody who was a French visual effects artist or something like that. And they were kind of describing what the idea was for it. So— and I think the trailer very clearly depicts a lot of it. So you understand this is gonna be a very visual effects-heavy film, but in really novel ways.

Joe Esposito [00:20:57]:
So, like, that kick is in there. And it wasn't until, like, Anthony, I think I got— I bought all the DVDs. I remember having that original one with the little clip on it. I mean, it was the most ratty, crappy DVD. Cardboard box for a DVD you could ever hope to see. But I remember diving into all that stuff and just really being fascinated by how they did that, because that was, as you said, everybody did it. It was copied all over the place to the point where people got sick of it, because of course that's what always happens. But I do remember they covered it a little bit, but it wasn't until the, the discs came out and it was popular that you really saw how they did it.

Joe Esposito [00:21:31]:
And it's really great to see if you've never watched anything about how they did you should, because it is amazing to see the setup, just to see how they accomplished this, you know, in what was still a— I mean, the CGI at the time is— it still holds up very well. Yeah, this is, this is, this is a kind of, like you said, a novel technique, and it's fantastic to see how they accomplished it. It's great.

Mikah Sargent [00:21:51]:
Yeah, minus the, the one part that pulled me out of it was whenever he drops his phone. Everything else, I'd be like, the special effects were just so good. That was one moment where I was like, okay, special effects of the time, that's fine, that's fine. Get back in the film, Mike. Get back in the film. Um, the other thing, of course, the digital rain is, uh, still to this day very well known. Found out that the designer who made the digital rain, Simon Whiteley, uh, or Whitley, ended up scanning characters— so it would have been kanji characters— from his wife's Japanese sushi cookbooks and used those as the jumping-off point to build the glyphs. And so if you're looking at The Matrix's digital rain, turns out it's built on recipes, which is kind of funny because later we have— I think it's Mouse talking about how everything tastes like chicken and how do these robots know how to, uh, do any— how do they know what things taste like and if they got it right? And then to find out that sort of the Matrix is just recipes, it was, it was a nice little, uh, moment.

Mikah Sargent [00:22:57]:
And so yes, this was kind of not only an introduction to the first character, but it was also an introduction to a lot of the motifs throughout the film. And in that way, it reminded me a lot of a musical. Because at the start of a musical, typically, you're going to have the opening music that has the little motifs that end up showing up throughout the musical that are about a specific character. So you have little riffs that play whenever characters come on stage, or when a certain plot is happening, and you get little tastes of all of the music as well.

Joe Esposito [00:23:32]:
Right.

Mikah Sargent [00:23:34]:
And this very much felt like it was setting the scene in the same way of really going, you know, this is the Matrix. These are some of the things that we can do. Here are what the bad guys look like. And I really liked that because it gave me a level of comfort that I didn't need to be spending as much time treating it like a mystery, and I could just kind of be along for the action.

Anthony Nielsen [00:24:01]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:24:02]:
the stakes get dropped in real fast, and I thought that was good.

Anthony Nielsen [00:24:07]:
Yeah, it's a great— it's almost like a perfect opening, 'cause they just give you just the right amount of context to, like, hang tight, it's gonna get really good. Here's a little— Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:24:19]:
Yeah. It's the sort of airline, everybody, fasten your seatbelts, and don't you worry, we've got you. It then cuts to Thomas Anderson, of course, played by Keanu Reeves, who is sort of a— office worker and then ends up being a hacker known as Neo. Um, and his screen tells him to follow the white rabbit, so he does, um, leading him to a club. And that is where he meets Trinity, and Trinity, of course, warns him. Now, a couple of things with this. First and foremost, a little bit of trivia: the contraband that Neo has It's inside of a hollowed-out copy of that book, Simulacra and Simulation, which the Wachowskis told the leads that they needed to read in order to, you know, do this film. And that was also paired with another— oh, Neo, of course, being an anagram of the one, or of one.

Mikah Sargent [00:25:24]:
Anderson means son of man. Morpheus, you know, the, the God of Dreams, and then Trinity. And we continue to see sort of, uh, not just— it's, it's not just religious references, but sort of, um, human lore. And it speaks to the power of human storytelling as a means of continuing, uh, knowledge that is unique to humanity.

Joe Esposito [00:25:54]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:25:54]:
in a world that is actually run by robots. And I love that idea that, you know, that's something they can't quite get is what storytelling means to humans and how these different sort of roles that we take on play a role— play into it. And I mean, that's kind of some of what Simulacra and Simulation is about, is about symbology and the difference between the way that the robots think. And so, it's— Again, when you really dig into all of this, you eat it up for sure. The one thing I want to ask both of you is, do you feel that this would have been a completely different movie if Will Smith was Neo?

Joe Esposito [00:26:42]:
Anthony, you go first. I want to think about this for a second.

Anthony Nielsen [00:26:44]:
Yeah, I think so. Keanu has that kind of like blank slate type of— yes, um, you know, thing going on where you could kind of put yourself into it.

Mikah Sargent [00:26:57]:
Um, I agree. Will Smith is too campy, says, uh, Pretty Fly, uh, Cis Guy. Um, this is— Will Smith was one of the people who was going— who was like— that they asked Will Smith and he turned it down in order to make Wild Wild West. And hearing that, I thought, Honestly, that was the perfect film for him to do. But he says that it was a mistake. He said, obviously, I should have done The Matrix instead of Wild Wild West. But I think I say I'm glad that he didn't, because I do think it would be a different film with Will Smith in that role.

Anthony Nielsen [00:27:33]:
I think Will Smith later, you know, in his later career, like, you know, he got more comfortable doing like other types of stuff. But yeah, early Will Smith probably would have been a mismatch.

Mikah Sargent [00:27:48]:
Joe, you've done a lot of thinking, which I appreciate too, because sometimes, you know, the directors could make a difference in the performance. I would imagine that acting alongside Laurence Fishburne could make him feel more— maybe perhaps make him more serious. So yeah, it's kind of interesting.

Joe Esposito [00:28:04]:
It's an interesting— I mean, we could literally do 3 or 4 hours on this movie because there's so much to dissect about it because one of the things, and this is a tangent, and I'll get back to your original question in a second though, is I saw a video, I wanna say 3, 4 years ago, where somebody broke down how much of the trans experience this movie covers.

Mikah Sargent [00:28:24]:
Mm-hmm.

Joe Esposito [00:28:24]:
And it completely changed the way I saw the movie because as a straight white guy who's boring as hell, I never saw a lot of this stuff. So I just liked it as an action movie, and I thought it was really great that way. And then I got into film and, and all the, the kind of the thematic stuff later. But I wonder about having a person of color in the lead role would have changed some of the storytelling. And maybe it wouldn't have because we already have Laurence Fishburne, but he's already out.

Anthony Nielsen [00:28:55]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:28:55]:
So he's, he's escaped, he's already free. So having somebody like Will Smith— now I don't know whether he would have been somebody that could be wrangled by the directors. Sometimes that works. Sometimes it doesn't. It depends. There's a lot of push and pull with star power and director power depending on where they are in their careers. This is early Wachowskis. Will Smith was more established.

Joe Esposito [00:29:14]:
Would he have—

Mikah Sargent [00:29:14]:
That's true.

Joe Esposito [00:29:15]:
Kind of pulled a Tom Cruise and been like, no, I'm gonna do it this way, and ruined it?

Anthony Nielsen [00:29:19]:
Maybe.

Joe Esposito [00:29:20]:
But if there had been— because again, it all comes down to directors. Certain directors will sit down and have these long conversations and say, well, here's what the story is about, and here's what this character represents. And then the that the actor will change what they would ordinarily do to suit the story once they understand it. There's a lot of times you hear about these people who are gonna turn down things based on scripts, and then they sat down with the director and director said, well, here's the vision. Buckaroo Banzai is a great example of that. If you ever see Peter Weller talking about how he absolutely was not gonna do that movie till he sat down with the director, he's like, the guy's a lunatic, but he made it make sense and I have to do this movie now.

Anthony Nielsen [00:29:55]:
Wow.

Joe Esposito [00:29:55]:
But so it's very hard for me to say whether he would or not because there's been at least a few times I could think this person's gonna be terrible in this role, and they weren't. Like Bruce Willis in 12 Monkeys, which I think is his best acting performance probably I've ever seen, where he's actually genuinely acting. Or when they said Hugh Jackman was gonna be Wolverine, and I said, a tall Australian is Wolverine? Wrong. That movie's a bomb. It'll never last. And what did I know? So I tend to agree that it wouldn't— I, I like that Neo is the blank slate. Would Will Smith have been able to do it? I almost wish I could see the world where that happened just to compare.

Mikah Sargent [00:30:30]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:30:30]:
But it was probably the right decision for it to end up the way it was. So I would generally agree, but I always wonder about those things.

Mikah Sargent [00:30:37]:
Some other people— Nicolas Cage actually passed on it as well. So he was offered before Keanu. Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio were circulated on the lists. They weren't asked yet. But one of my favorite little bits of lore is that reportedly, They— one of the producers, uh, Lorenzo di Bonaventura, um, said that the studio, Warner Brothers, was considering retooling Neo for Sandra Bullock. Can you imagine? That would have been interesting.

Anthony Nielsen [00:31:14]:
I could see that. Yeah, that would have been interesting.

Mikah Sargent [00:31:17]:
Huh.

Anthony Nielsen [00:31:18]:
Huh.

Mikah Sargent [00:31:19]:
Uh, yeah, so that's some of the— right? I know, right?

Joe Esposito [00:31:23]:
I, I just Well, there's a part of me that sits there and goes, if all you did was change the actor and left the rest the same, it's an interesting movie.

Mikah Sargent [00:31:30]:
Yeah, it is.

Joe Esposito [00:31:32]:
But would they have tried to make it into— I, I don't— because it's just the sensibilities of the time. I doubt they would have been as open-minded. Like, it's an interesting movie if you stick to the core of what it is, but if you fall for the trap of going, okay, well then Laurence Fishburne has to be the hero now because now it's a woman in the lead, so she has to be more in distress. Which is what they would've done. We all know that. I know, you know, but we know that's what would probably have happened in an action movie. They just wouldn't have seen it, even though it's a much more interesting movie that way. Again, go watch Bound.

Joe Esposito [00:32:02]:
So I'm just saying, go watch Bound.

Mikah Sargent [00:32:05]:
Go watch Bound.

Joe Esposito [00:32:05]:
Yeah, that's interesting.

Anthony Nielsen [00:32:08]:
Interesting.

Mikah Sargent [00:32:08]:
One of the most horrifying bits of body horror that I have ever— I don't— I'm not a big fan of body horror stuff, and this is The— this is one example because, uh, we see Neo at work, or we see Anderson at work, and he is being instructed on the phone. It kind of reminds me of, um, Everything Everywhere All at Once. He's being instructed on the phone to move throughout the building, and Morpheus, of course, is, uh, working to try and, uh, get him out. And he ends up getting pulled in and interrogated by Agent Smith. And then his mouth gets covered with his own skin, so his mouth gets grown over, and they put a nasty bug into his stomach. Oh, horrifying. He wakes up and it seems like it's a nightmare. Cut to, no, it's not a nightmare.

Mikah Sargent [00:33:07]:
Trinity just saved you from this goopy bug inside of you. I hate that scene. How do we feel about that scene? Are you able to like separate yourself from it or do you feel it? Because I can't. I see that and I'm just like, ah, it's so horrifying.

Anthony Nielsen [00:33:25]:
I'm not a horror body. Like, you know, like, yeah, I don't generally like that stuff, but this one was— it's tame enough where like, you know, it doesn't creep me out too much.

Joe Esposito [00:33:34]:
But interestingly, I'm the opposite. I need it to be so over the top like Cronenberg that I don't I cannot possibly believe it's real. So that stuff, scanners, like, oh, that's just fun. Oh, exploding heads. Oh, it's great. Sure. But yeah, when you see somebody at the belly button, I've always creeped out by the belly button thing. And so when she extracts it, it's like, oh God, you know, that, that, like, I can feel that.

Joe Esposito [00:33:56]:
Yes. Just gross.

Mikah Sargent [00:33:57]:
Yes. Okay. Yeah, that, that the belly button thing specifically for me, I, I don't like. So, um, this is, this is a little off topic, but not really actually. Uh, the most recent Stranger— like the end of the Stranger Things stuff. I hate it when people are force-fed things. I hate it when people are given drugs against their will. And basically, yeah, anything that, that completely disrupts someone's agency, it— I, I feel so many emotions all at once.

Mikah Sargent [00:34:27]:
And so it's really like, oh, I just struggle with it. And then to then double that with, yeah, the weird belly button of it all is—

Joe Esposito [00:34:35]:
I asked the two of you. Did the two of you for at least a little while immediately consider buying that phone with the, the, the thing that falls out of it? 'Cause I know I was like, yeah, should I spend that money? That's an awesome phone. Should I spend that money? I don't know.

Mikah Sargent [00:34:47]:
It is an awesome phone.

Anthony Nielsen [00:34:48]:
It is. They definitely, they also, well, I mean, this is the sequel, but they definitely capitalized on that concept and they did like a, a special like Samsung.

Joe Esposito [00:34:56]:
Yeah. But I didn't like that second phone nearly as much as the first one. And this was in the days where phones didn't all look the same. So when you had that thing fire out of the bottom, I was like, oh, what is that?

Mikah Sargent [00:35:06]:
Uh, a couple of other things with this. The accent that Hugo Weaving comes up with for, uh, Agent Smith, he said that he wanted it to be a machine's idea of an American authority figure. And so it is kind of, uh, it's originless almost, and obviously a little bit clipped. And yeah, the idea is like What would a machine think that— especially, it'd have to be Americans because that's where the focus is. What would a machine think that these people would see as an authority figure? And he does read as, like, CIA or FBI agent to me, just very well in so many ways.

Joe Esposito [00:35:48]:
There's a thing about this where I've always suspected that perhaps Hugo Weaving is spinning a bit of a tale, because go listen to Carl Sagan talk for a little bit. it is amazingly similar.

Mikah Sargent [00:36:01]:
For real?

Joe Esposito [00:36:01]:
Where I sit there and go, maybe it was unconscious, but Carl Sagan sounds a lot like this character, and many people have picked up on it. So I'm not saying that he was lying. Maybe he'd heard it and kind of internalized it, because Carl Sagan, very smart person, ran the Cosmos show for a long time, like this heavy thinker. Uh, but when you, when you hear it, you can't unhear it, that, oh wow, this is the benevolent Agent Smith, the one who's smart and actually considers people's feelings and likes the planet. And then Agent Smith is like the evil inverse that got put into the computer. But Hugo Weaving is awesome. I mean, Agent Smith is one of those great villain characters, and his arc through the 3 movies— it's really— sorry, spoilers, I guess, if you've never seen them— it's really Agent Smith's movie, everybody. If you watch all 3, Neo's not really the main character when you get to the end of it.

Joe Esposito [00:36:50]:
It's really about Agent Smith's journey from where he started to where he ended. So great character. But I love his accent. I mean, I, I've quoted human beings who are diseased. I mean, I can't do it, but everybody's done it. Once you saw the movie, everybody was doing the same line. It's awesome.

Anthony Nielsen [00:37:03]:
Like Gary Oldman in The Fifth Element. Like, he definitely is a huge, like, influence on the, you know, uh, absolutely memorable, like, villains.

Mikah Sargent [00:37:14]:
The— we see this interrogation room, little nod to, uh, Orwell. It's Room 101, which of course is the same room that's the torture chamber in 1984. Oddly enough, Neo's apartment number is also 101, but that, uh, we don't know, you know, sort of same tie-in there. And then I loved this because one of my favorite things is all of the different— this was how, if I was going to do a costume, I was thinking, you got to do sunglasses. Turns out that everyone was wearing custom-made sunglasses specifically for them. The costume designer, Kim Barrett, worked with a design company to make each character's frames unique to them. And apparently there was— like, if there was— because some shows have like a show bible. If there was a show bible for this, one of the behaviors that rings true is that when one of the agents loses or takes off their sunglasses, that is an example of them kind of losing control.

Mikah Sargent [00:38:16]:
They almost like By losing control, they're almost virally impacted by human emotion in a way, and kind of take on odd behavior that they become more frustrated, or they act what might seem irrationally. And I thought that was interesting because it's almost like the sunglasses are a veil of their own, and it is that separation from, you know, getting down into the nitty-gritty of humanity. But then those come off and they're right there in it. Yeah. And especially in a world where everything is symbolic, what are sunglasses to a person in a world like that? If your eyes aren't actually impacted by UV rays from the sun because it's all a simulation, then sunglasses could be something more. And I think that's an interesting aspect of it.

Joe Esposito [00:39:09]:
Well, also, eyes are the window to the soul. If you obscure the eyes, you're not seeing the true person. person. So again, if you want to get into all the heavy philosophy— and there is a great, by the way, extra on— I don't remember if it's all 3 movies, but definitely the first movie where they talk— they— or maybe it was the second one where they have philosophers that are discussing all the themes. Really, really interesting to listen to. Um, you have to be smarter than me to understand all of it, but it's really, really interesting to listen to. But I thought that they had also said that all the good characters had rounded sunglasses and all the villainous characters had squared-off sunglasses because— Oh, that's right. Humans are soft and rounded and organic, and then machines are hard-edged and are squared off.

Mikah Sargent [00:39:48]:
It's Bobo and Kiki. You know what I'm talking about? Is it Bobo and Kiki or Boba and Kiki? Booba and Kiki. There's this concept in— I think it's in— what is the research of words? I can't think of that at this moment.

Joe Esposito [00:40:09]:
Etymology? No, etymology?

Mikah Sargent [00:40:11]:
Not etymology, but similar. Linguistics is what I was thinking of. It's this idea that we— and it's a little bit psychology— we have a mental association between certain types of speech sounds and visual shapes. And so when people were presented— I posted it in the chat— with these 2 images, people tend to call the rounded image booba. So they are presented with these 2 images and they say, one of these is booba, one of these is kiki. Assign the words. They tend to call the sharp one kiki because it has that spiky hard sound. Takete is another word that they'll use, and then buba and maluma are the words that get associated with the soft one.

Mikah Sargent [00:40:51]:
And so it's an interesting way that sound symbolism takes shape, and thinking about then that softness versus the hardness is an interesting thing where we kind of see the, uh, the, the Tekete Maluma as that softer, and the— yeah, the Kiki, I think, is the, the harder. Anyway, uh, that's probably more of a tangent than we needed to go on, but—

Joe Esposito [00:41:16]:
No, I mean, I, I would not be surprised if elements of that— there's so much, like I said, if you really dig into these, these movies, there is a lot of thought, particularly in the first one, as far as the, the dissection of the themes and what's being said. So I would not be shocked if there is some integration of that into this because there's just too much intelligence in this movie for me not to think that there was a lot of— I mean, there's obviously all the visual references and everything else which you can get into and kind of like anime and film history and kung fu and all that stuff. But some of the thematic elements, because the 101 could also be binary, 1-0-1.

Anthony Nielsen [00:41:50]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:41:50]:
1s and 0s, computers, computer code. So yeah, it's such a rich movie. It's such a rich movie to talk about. It's great.

Anthony Nielsen [00:41:57]:
Well, just to go back on the glasses thing, like the way they, they would always like frame shots using the, you know, glasses, like having reflections and stuff is also like, well, the obvious ones, you know, the red-blue pill with Morpheus, but like throughout the movie, like they do a lot of interesting compositions, making sure that, you know, whoever they're talking to is like in the reflection and stuff like that.

Mikah Sargent [00:42:23]:
So, okay. Huh. I'll have to, I Oh yeah, someone's just posted a GIF in the chat that shows—

Anthony Nielsen [00:42:29]:
Yeah, that's the most obvious one, but they do it throughout the movie pretty much.

Mikah Sargent [00:42:35]:
Yeah, that's super cool, the reflection there. Now, of course, next is the famous scene that has absolutely entered the lexicon because Morpheus, Laurence Fishburne, offers the choice: blue pill, wake up, believe whatever you want; red pill, see how deep the rabbit hole goes. We see him touch that liquefying mirror, wakes up hairless, atrophied, plugged in with all these cables in some pod among billions of humans that are farmed for energy in endless towers. Luckily, after being flushed out as, I guess, waste at that point, he gets picked up by the hovercraft Nebuchadnezzar, which, once again, biblical reference. And the ship has a little plate on it, Mark 3:11, which is the Bible verse, Mark 3:11, Thou art the Son of God. And remember that that's what Anderson means. The ship itself is named for the Babylonian king who, if people are biblical, will remember that King Nebuchadnezzar would get a bunch of dreams, and he couldn't figure out how to interpret those dreams. And so, it's just all these little references that exist exist in there.

Mikah Sargent [00:43:51]:
One thing that I didn't know, and they say this was just completely a coincidence, if you look in Agent Smith's dossier on, uh, Mr. Anderson, uh, Neo, AKA Anderson's passport, expires on September 11th, 2001, which is just— it just was a coincidence that it happened to be that date. Um, and then lastly, Apparently Keanu did a lot of work to look pretty gaunt himself for that scene. I mean, if you can think of a human body not getting much work and just kind of being there, yeah, that makes sense. And that— yeah, thank you. You know what, thank you so much, Pretty Fly. Pretty Fly keeps posting these wonderful image references that that, that I'm making. So I really appreciate that.

Mikah Sargent [00:44:48]:
And yeah, you can see that the passport expires on September 11th, 2001. Um, heavily practical, that body horror. That body horror doesn't bother me as much after the— after everything's pulled out, it doesn't bother me. Like, the little suction cup stuff doesn't, doesn't bug me. But man, was it—

Anthony Nielsen [00:45:06]:
Tryptophobia.

Joe Esposito [00:45:07]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:45:08]:
What did we think though, the Do you feel like they did a good job? Because I did, personally. I thought they did a really good job of capturing the scale of the operation. And I can only imagine at the time, especially, you know, in 1999, watching this and seeing just this vast, grand scale of just rows and rows of human beings. How did y'all feel about that when that happened?

Joe Esposito [00:45:38]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:45:39]:
The reveal happened.

Joe Esposito [00:45:42]:
Uh, Joe, you go first.

Mikah Sargent [00:45:46]:
Joe, you go first.

Joe Esposito [00:45:46]:
No, I always feel bad that I'm going first. Uh, uh, no, I thought— I— look, the effects are really, really good. As you said, there's really, uh, the effects are for the time, especially for how CG'd some of this stuff is, especially when we look at some of the stuff today that's not nearly as good. Yeah, when he's looking out and you see all the pods and everything It really is such a shift from the world that we saw, which was contemporary at the time. It was supposed to be set in kind of the modern day. So to go instantly from that to, oh, uh, it's all like dark skies, lightning, machines— like the thing grabs him by the throat, it's this really sinister flying machine. The, the reds, the color use— I mean, we haven't even talked about like the color grading and some of the way this movie handles color and light and shadow, which is just so well done. But no, I thought I— it's an instant— it's really smart color usage because red, which a lot of those pods are kind of reds, and that red hues, which is generally associated with kind of anger, and it's like a malevolent color.

Joe Esposito [00:46:46]:
So right away, the cold robots, all the different eyes, they look insectoid, they look predatory, sharp angles all over the place. It's— I think it's great. I think that it's, it's a really solid gut punch. Because up to now you might have thought, oh, okay, like there's a conspiracy, it's a conspiracy, you know. And unfortunately redpilling and bluepilling has been co-opted, as so many things are, by the most terrible of all people. But at the time we didn't have all that stuff, it wasn't coded that way. So initially it just seemed like maybe there were some secret government people who were, you know, X-Files style trying to get you or whatever. But you're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, whoa, this is radically way past this.

Anthony Nielsen [00:47:21]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [00:47:21]:
This isn't hiding aliens, this is hiding the world is gone, baby. It's nuked, you know, and we did it, which we'll find out later, which is even worse. So no, I think it's great. Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [00:47:30]:
Well, like I said, I came into this blind at the time when I first saw it.

Mikah Sargent [00:47:34]:
So that's even better.

Anthony Nielsen [00:47:35]:
This is, this is like the— this is where the movie flips. And this scene leading into the exposition, which is like an amazing, like, way they handle it too. Also like that, this is like the, the best, like, you know, the sweet spot Absolutely.

Mikah Sargent [00:47:51]:
Yeah. I mean, because again, things seem so focused on, at that point, you know, Keanu Reeves is this main character, and what's happening to him, and this story. And then suddenly it's like, no, you're just seeing one person who's involved in this, but this is something that's impacting everybody. Literally, literally all humans. And that— the scale of that is just wild. Um, now Morpheus, of course, gives Neo this history lesson of what happened, um, in the Construct, this blank white loading program. It's closer to, uh, 2199, I think, is the idea. It's not 1999.

Mikah Sargent [00:48:31]:
Humanity, of course, scorched the sky. Um, the— they— I think the idea is like these machines were, uh, solar powered and they needed to make it so that they couldn't get the power that they needed anymore. And it ended up that, you know, we see all of the crew— Trinity, Cypher, Tank, Dozer, Mouse, Apoc, and Switch— and then we learn that Morpheus believes Neo is the one, the one prophesied to end the war. Prophecy is a really fascinating concept in this because of how how otherwise it seems very based in technology and very based in that aspect of it. But there is this sort of underlying— it's a fable a little bit. It's religious in many ways. And it is referential. So, the Desert of the Real, which is something that Morpheus says, welcome to the Desert of the Real, that's straight from the Tree written by—

Anthony Nielsen [00:49:45]:
Oh.

Mikah Sargent [00:49:45]:
The guy who wrote that Simulacrum da-da-da-da-da guide. And I love, of course, one character that we're introduced here named Switch. Uh, the Wachowskis— in, in the original conception, Switch was to be played as one gender in the real world and then another inside the Matrix. Of course, the studio balked on the idea. Uh, Lilly Wachowski confirmed in 2020 that the film was intended as a trans allegory, even from the start. And so, that idea of waking up to your true self, made by 2 directors who came out as trans women later, of course, was a huge aspect. But it is a bit of a bummer that Switch didn't get to— well, not even just a bit of a bummer. It's a big bummer that Switch didn't get to be what was originally intended.

Mikah Sargent [00:50:32]:
And then the other part of it is—

Joe Esposito [00:50:37]:
Oh, um...

Mikah Sargent [00:50:39]:
I was reading about the crew having in the real world this sort of like knitted, torn-up wardrobe versus those sleek in-Matrix looks where they get to be the idealized version of themselves. That was on purpose by the costume designer, meaning that, you know, when you are in the Matrix and you get to be your choice of what your residual self-image is, It is who you choose to be. So everybody gets to look as cool— can I say AF? Because that's really what it is.

Joe Esposito [00:51:11]:
It's the mental projection of your digital self, or whatever he says. Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:51:16]:
And so now let me ask both of you, if you could describe what the digital versions of yourself looks like.

Joe Esposito [00:51:24]:
Oh, man.

Mikah Sargent [00:51:26]:
What are you wearing? I know for me, I would be wearing one of those, like, I would, I would want to wear like ren faire style clothing. I love the sort of like billowy cloth and the long jacket with the tails and multiple layers and like a little vest. And perhaps maybe it gets into a little steampunk territory because I would absolutely, absolutely have a pocket watch in my pocket. Um, but then And when you— when I open up my, uh, I'm sort of trying to make this up on the fly, so forgive me. I promise I didn't, uh, figure this out beforehand. When you open up your jacket and I've got like a bunch of different pockets inside with a bunch of stuff in it, I want to be like, um, a mixture of a, uh, an old-timey scientist snake oil salesman and a modern MacGyver. who just goes around and fixes things with all the little things he has in his pockets. That's my idealized version of myself, I guess.

Mikah Sargent [00:52:32]:
Oh, and I'm followed by a pack of adorable dogs. All right, who wants to go first on this very difficult question?

Anthony Nielsen [00:52:39]:
You can't— go ahead, Joe.

Joe Esposito [00:52:42]:
Okay, I have a complex and ridiculous answer. So as far as the physicality, I already referenced Buckaroo Banzai. I probably want to look like John Lithgow in Buckaroo Banzai, Emilio Lozardo, the psychotic Italian Professor, but I'd want to be dressed as the Russian Jaeger pilot from Pacific Rim because that dude's outfit was amazing. And I'd like to have his hair. I'll take anybody's hair that's not like this. So I'd like to have my hair back. That's a nice one. Could I just get that? So that would be what I would want to look like if I was honestly, yeah, uh, gonna project it.

Joe Esposito [00:53:18]:
That's probably what it would be, some version of that.

Mikah Sargent [00:53:20]:
Cool. Anthony, it's okay if you don't have an answer.

Anthony Nielsen [00:53:22]:
I don't have an answer. Um, yeah, you know, a little bit more hair would be, would be nice. Um, uh, I don't know. I, I mean, it, I could dress like this, but like, I do kind of like the, the techwear look where it's like kind of minimalist, but also not like the exaggerated stuff, but like just, you know, uh, practical like wear, but that's also, you know, has a lot of straps and stuff like that.

Mikah Sargent [00:53:48]:
Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [00:53:49]:
It's a, it's a cool look, but also, you know, somewhat practical.

Mikah Sargent [00:53:53]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Esposito [00:53:54]:
I wish I could pull off that white outfit that Switch wears.

Mikah Sargent [00:53:57]:
Yes, me too.

Joe Esposito [00:53:58]:
I don't, I don't have the form for it at all, everybody. That might be fairly obvious. But if I did, that's what I'd be wearing because she looks great.

Mikah Sargent [00:54:06]:
And those frames too. I do like Switch's frames.

Anthony Nielsen [00:54:09]:
Discord, pretty fly. Iron Man suit, you know, I wouldn't complain.

Joe Esposito [00:54:13]:
You know what?

Anthony Nielsen [00:54:13]:
That's true.

Mikah Sargent [00:54:14]:
An Iron Man suit. I think I would want it to be able to be, um, camouflaged though. I would like an Iron Man suit, but maybe it can look like a— I don't know, a normal suit or something.

Joe Esposito [00:54:29]:
I don't know how good that suit's gonna smell after a couple weeks.

Mikah Sargent [00:54:33]:
Oh, it's got—

Joe Esposito [00:54:33]:
it's got—

Mikah Sargent [00:54:34]:
it's got a cleaning— it's got—

Joe Esposito [00:54:37]:
it's gonna need a heavy-duty scrubber, I think, for most people.

Anthony Nielsen [00:54:40]:
I don't think it's nanobots. It doesn't matter. They are like nanobots, just—

Mikah Sargent [00:54:43]:
they'll eat up all of the bacteria. All right, so So then one of the best, I think, parts of the film, as someone who wanted to be able to do this myself, uh, it's basically what the whole sitcom Chuck is based on. Um, and it's the idea that you can upload things directly into the brain. You just put a little program in, and then Neo, who's pretty much a machine, uh, running for 10 hours, is able to—

Joe Esposito [00:55:14]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:14]:
get kung fu, and what else was it that they actually showed? I mean, there's a bunch of different types of kung fu.

Joe Esposito [00:55:22]:
All the martial arts possible. Yeah, because they start with the combat training. I mean, you assume they showed him everything about everything, really. The amount of discs they had was insane.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:31]:
Yeah, that's also another argument for physical media, everyone. You may need to hold on to it so you can download those programs to you in the future.

Joe Esposito [00:55:39]:
Yes.

Mikah Sargent [00:55:40]:
Oh yeah, yeah, Sony, stop trying to hit me and hit me. Um, now of course we see the famous jump program, uh, where unfortunately everyone ends up falling. And Neo— I like that Neo fell.

Joe Esposito [00:55:59]:
I love that he falls. I think that's one of the smartest decisions this script made, is to not have him instantly just jump the chasm like every other movie does with their superhero character. Oh, he made it! Oh, he's amazing! No, he fell. Not everybody makes the first jump. It's fine. He can still be heroic. You don't have to make it right away. You can have stumbles on the path to greatness.

Joe Esposito [00:56:18]:
It's okay.

Mikah Sargent [00:56:19]:
Absolutely. Yeah, that, that's so core to what I think keeps people from being creative or trying out new things in the first place, is, uh, this idea that we have to be good at it the first time we do it. And yeah, there is a certain level of media reinforcement and cultural reinforcement of that idea. And so having him fall, um, I— again, I thought was, was really great. And during this whole experience, we also see the woman in the red dress, uh, who then turns into the Agent. Uh, apparently in this scene with Morpheus and Neo, that dojo fight It took days to shoot. And apparently, because of all the training they did, the majority, the overwhelming majority, according to what I was reading, was their own actual fighting. And so that was a cool aspect of doing all of that training, is that it wasn't just a matter of, you know, getting a couple of movements right, but that they did get to spar a little bit.

Joe Esposito [00:57:27]:
Can I say, Go ahead. In that fight, one of the coolest moments of this entire film is the smallest thing. When Morpheus does the shuffle with his feet, that is always the coolest move in that entire fight where he does that foot— 'cause I'm like, how do you do that? I'm sure martial artists, it's no big deal to them, but I'm just— I tried it and fell over a bunch when I was younger, and I— because I can't do it. But I just— when he does that thing where he stands up and does the foot shuffle, it's the coolest thing, man. It is the coolest thing in that whole fight. I love it. I love it.

Mikah Sargent [00:57:57]:
Another thing, I actually didn't notice this during the film, and I'm kind of annoyed that I didn't pick up on it. The— in the agent training program where, you know, you're introduced to the agent, they had identical twins and triplets in the cast so that it feels, if you are paying attention, it feels slightly off.

Anthony Nielsen [00:58:21]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [00:58:22]:
But I love that they didn't just computer generate a bunch of people, right? Like, part of it was getting people that actually literally do look a lot alike and using them as part of the cast there.

Anthony Nielsen [00:58:37]:
It was a mouse copy and pasting a bunch of people in there. Exactly.

Mikah Sargent [00:58:42]:
He spent all of his time working on the woman in the red dress. Morpheus, of course, then this is the big thing. We've been waiting. The crew has been asking, hey, what's, uh, what— where are we? Uh, when are we gonna see the Oracle? When is he gonna see the Oracle? I remember this scene probably more than any other scene in the movie, and I don't know why, but him walking in and that little kid with the bowl, with the shaved head, um, bending the spoon, and then Neo bending the spoon, and me going, is he actually bending the spoon, or is the kid bending it for him because he feels bad for him for not being able to?

Anthony Nielsen [00:59:21]:
I didn't think about that. That's a— yeah, that's a— could be a read.

Joe Esposito [00:59:24]:
That's the eternal question. There's no answer.

Mikah Sargent [00:59:27]:
Yeah, exactly. No answer. And then I remember part of it being that I absolutely loved the Oracle. I was really sad that she smoked. I remember as a kid being so sad that she smoked because I was like, I don't want her to die.

Anthony Nielsen [00:59:41]:
Why is she smoking?

Mikah Sargent [00:59:42]:
smoking cigarettes even though she's in the program.

Joe Esposito [00:59:45]:
She can't die. It's fine. Don't worry about it.

Mikah Sargent [00:59:48]:
Don't worry about it. But good point, Anthony, because—

Anthony Nielsen [00:59:51]:
I agree. Like, she, she also makes the movie and it's a, it's a shame she couldn't make it to the sequels. Um, yeah, definitely a missing aspect. Like, uh, I, I know that in— well, this is talking about the sequels— like, the— who they got to replace her was a good friend of The original actors. But, um, oh, okay. It, it wasn't— yeah, it wasn't the same.

Joe Esposito [01:00:15]:
There are some people, when they, when they define a role, it's just very, very hard. And I mean, what are you gonna do? But yeah, she's great. She is great because that's exactly what you want that character to be. You're not expecting that. You're expecting kind of the traditional oracle with like crystal ball and all that stuff, and then she's just making cookies. And it's such a great scene, man. That whole conversation is just Just so good.

Anthony Nielsen [01:00:37]:
Her delivery is just amazing.

Joe Esposito [01:00:39]:
And I—

Mikah Sargent [01:00:40]:
yeah, I was gonna say, I really like the fact that he— because usually when you hear Oracle, what you hear is, can you solve my puzzle? I'm going to tell you things that are so weird and so strange, and you'll never really know or be sure. And she doesn't. She's just like making— exactly, she's making cookies and telling him the stuff. And, you know, You know, if you really are paying attention to how the Oracle communicates about, you know, the One and how this is supposed to do it and how it works and everything, it kind of works because of how people respond to it, to sort of that battle cry or that step up to becoming what needs to be.

Joe Esposito [01:01:26]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:01:28]:
But this is when I was introduced to the concept of feeling a level of distaste for someone that carried over to when I saw the actor in future films. I still had the icky feeling for Joe Pantoliano, who plays Cypher.

Joe Esposito [01:01:56]:
Joey Pants.

Mikah Sargent [01:01:57]:
Joey Pants, uh, because he's a sellout, he's a rat, he's a turkey, he's awful. And I wanted to—

Joe Esposito [01:02:08]:
I may have a controversial opinion on this, but I understand why Cipher does what he does. Okay, I'm not saying I would have—

Mikah Sargent [01:02:14]:
You said you understand it. Yeah, that's—

Joe Esposito [01:02:15]:
Oh, I understand it, because if, if you were brought out of— we don't know what his life was, but it certainly doesn't seem like he was doing very well on the outside. and you had the option to go back into oblivion but be somebody important like an actor, I think more people than we'd like to believe would say, you know what, put me back in. I'm fine being a battery. This sucks. The food is snot. Uh, there's barely any power. We're running all the time. This is not a fun life.

Joe Esposito [01:02:42]:
Put me back in. I'd rather not know. I mean, that's— ignorance is bliss is a saying for a reason.

Anthony Nielsen [01:02:47]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:02:48]:
What you don't know doesn't bother you. So I understand. I mean, he is supposed to be villainous. I get it. Clearly. I mean, they make him look like the devil pretty much right off the bat.

Mikah Sargent [01:02:56]:
Well, it's the betrayal that makes him, I think, the villain. If he was just going back in on his own, it's fine. But the price that he pays, the price that he makes everyone else pay on his behalf, is the part that made me go, okay, I do not like you. Because you're right, I want to wait until we get to the very end to to have the— in a vacuum, free from how it's been co-opted. I want to have the red pill, blue pill conversation with you. And I think that I might lean more into the ignorance is bliss is the truth of it all. So that's why I want to talk about that too. But yeah, that's where I don't agree with you.

Joe Esposito [01:03:33]:
But I am understanding. I just am saying this is a human element. That's the thing, is to be so miserable and desperate that you'll run back to I mean, it happens in life. You sit there and say, why would somebody stay with somebody who's abusing them?

Anthony Nielsen [01:03:46]:
Right.

Joe Esposito [01:03:46]:
It's like, well, that's the life they know and they're familiar with it, even though it doesn't make sense from the outside. You're not that person. So we really don't know. I mean, plus he also seemed to be in love with Trinity. That wasn't going anywhere. He seemed to be not maybe as important as he thought he should be. So yes, he's terrible, but I understand why he did what he did. So that, that was the point I was And that's also true.

Mikah Sargent [01:04:08]:
He, out of sync, says he's played a lot of bad guys. And so that probably plays a role too. I think the other part, remember what I said about loss of agency? Him being as close to Trinity's body as he is, and then also jumping on top of Laurence Fishburne's body, I wanted to wring that man's neck. I have to tell you, like, I felt violence in my heart about him in those moments. I was like, you don't get to do that.

Anthony Nielsen [01:04:33]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:04:34]:
do that to people's bodies. That's so gross. But yes, overall, he regretted taking the red pill, and, uh, it would have been nice if he could have just walked out of that room, taken the blue pill, and gone back instead of involving everybody. Uh, the— now, I, I saw this quote, but I don't know, does anyone— what is a squib? Uh, so it says the wet wall shootout and Mouse's death were among the film's most Squib-heavy practical sequences?

Anthony Nielsen [01:05:05]:
Yeah, the squibs are like the practical explosions, like under—

Joe Esposito [01:05:09]:
yeah. Oh, that's how they did it before digital blood, everybody. You had to have a little bag that you would pop and red stuff would come flying out of it. So that's practical, basically gunshot effects, if you want to put it that way, where you see like the pops, the physical pops.

Mikah Sargent [01:05:23]:
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, so we— this apparently was one of the parts where we had one of the, you know, many, many, many were used in this scene. And then we have the rescue. The agents capture Morpheus. Oh, then they put all that— again, being given drugs without being able to be in control of it. It apparently was this conversation about the virus. They didn't realize that Weaving ended up doing so well in delivering that monologue, that it was something that resonated more because of the delivery than it did in the script. And so, they apparently, like, that was a really celebrated moment.

Mikah Sargent [01:06:16]:
And it sounds like that did stick with you, Joe, and has stuck with other people for sure. Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:06:21]:
That whole sequence is— I mean, man, it's the best part of the movie, uh, for me. Because yes, I, I can imagine on the script it was just supposed to be like a robotic delivery, a robot going, yes, you know, human beings are a virus and we're going to fix that. And you morons, you couldn't be happy, so we had to reconfigure it so you're not happy. The wrong person— Okay, your Will Smith question. This is where— can I imagine anybody but Hugo Weaving doing this? I really can't, except for maybe Like, could Anthony Hopkins have done it? Probably. He's a great actor. But still, it's the whole physicality of Hugo Weaving's performance. Like, he has that rigid, like, coiled snake thing happening all the time where you immediately, even if the movie didn't really indicate it, you believe he's leading the 3 agents.

Joe Esposito [01:07:06]:
Like, right away, you're just— he's so defined in how his character comes across that all of his line deliveries, I mean, I can't even think of a bad one in the movie. Right from the very beginning where he tells the guy, all your men are dead. Like, right there, it's all there.

Mikah Sargent [01:07:17]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:07:19]:
This guy's running the bad side of the show. That's it. We know who's in charge. It's that guy. So yeah, that's the smell. That part is great. Yeah, it's the smell. It's so, so beautifully done where, yeah, I'm sure that they probably had it in their minds one way.

Joe Esposito [01:07:36]:
And this is where a good actor or a great actor can transform things because it may have been a very minor scene to set up the big action breakout, which comes after. It's like, okay, this is— we'll have this scene and then the big thing is going to be they're going to show up in a helicopter. We're going to have this giant action sequence. Which, by the way, just before I forget to mention this, if you get a new sound system and you really want to test it, take this movie and spool it up to the part where he starts firing that minigun out of the helicopter. I got— when we got into our house and I got everything set up, I set that thing up and I cranked the system up to 75, which I've never done since, and the walls shook and it was amazing. Because, man, when that thing is going And you just hear this pounding on the wall. It's sonically beautiful. I can't tell you how awesome it is.

Joe Esposito [01:08:24]:
I love that scene too. It's so good. But he's, he's one of the major parts. I mean, Hugh Williams is just awesome in the whole movie.

Mikah Sargent [01:08:29]:
Yeah, yeah. Uh, we have the subway showdown, Trinity and Morpheus exiting through the ringing phone. Smith does get there first, shatters the handset. Uh, Neo's ready to fight. instead of, you know, giving in. And we finally see this wire fu, as it was called, brawl with Neo being pinned down but escaping. And then, of course, we see— despite thinking that perhaps a train can be of service here, the agent just moves to a new body over or whatever. Of course, Weaving did just as much of the training as the others, and so, So, he also is doing a lot of the work there.

Mikah Sargent [01:09:14]:
And I read that this is the fight where the wire work done by this was— the wire work done in this scene is what convinced special effects people of the time to— or inspired, I guess, special effects people of the time to bring more of that into more films.

Anthony Nielsen [01:09:38]:
Right.

Mikah Sargent [01:09:38]:
films where before they were like, oh, wire work, we're gonna have to block out the wires, you can tell it's a little bit cheesy, it's this, it's that. This film was a little bit kind of like the, um, Star Wars sequels, or I guess prequels, but, uh, were also a test of, of technology. And then of course, um, same thing with the Avatar films, a test of technology, and were used as proving ground. The Matrix wasn't trying to be a proving ground for it, but it ended up being a proving ground for it. And so people were like, oh, we can do wire work and make it look really stinking incredible. And then we see this sort of death and resurrection moment. Sentinels are breaching the Nebuchadnezzar hole. Smith empties a gun into the— into his chest, and then Trinity is You know, telling that little secret.

Mikah Sargent [01:10:35]:
And, you can't be dead because I'm in love with you. How are we feeling about a kiss-to-life situation? What's going on here? How do you— 'cause I don't know about you, but I know for my significant other and I, whenever there's something that happens in a show that we don't like, we'll kind of— or that we're a little bit like, I don't know what's going on here.

Joe Esposito [01:10:56]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:10:57]:
We will stop it or, or take a moment, and we will come up with our own canon that makes us feel better about it, if that makes sense. So let's say that, um, someone dies in a film, and the way that they died is like, okay, what are we doing here other than just we needed this character to die? I'm not saying that's what's going on here. We will take that and go, okay, here are some reasons why we think that this person needed to die. And Like why this happened. Now we're okay with it. Now we can move on. How do we feel about resurrection and the tie to religious figures like Jesus Christ?

Joe Esposito [01:11:37]:
And I'll let you go first.

Anthony Nielsen [01:11:40]:
I, I do remember, like, I think it was a kind of a having For a movie so based on like, you know, hard sci-fi, trying to thread that, um, uh, you know, destiny stuff, it did feel odd. Um, and it was, yeah, like kind of hard to reconcile the two. Um, the sequels do kind of, you know, touch on this a lot, which, um, just an aside, I, I think the, you know, the execution is not so great on the next 2, but like the themes and ideas in there are really strong.

Mikah Sargent [01:12:27]:
Um, yeah, I almost wanted like an encyclopedia of The Matrix after the first film, and then I didn't even need the others to watch it. Yeah, because then it's just like, okay, now I get to go and learn about the lore of it, but I don't have to do it through films that aren't as good. I didn't mind them, but I, you know, not as good as the first, in my opinion. But yeah, I, I did struggle with this. Joe, I think that I've noticed that you do, you do a good job of having reasons, and this is— I mean, this is a very positive thing— like reasons to be settled with a choice. And so I am curious to hear how you feel about this.

Joe Esposito [01:13:11]:
Yeah, I remember when I first saw it, I remember in the theater, this seemed odd to me that this was the way. I was expecting another explanation after it happened that, oh yeah, well, it just so happened that when you kissed him, we loaded a program to restart his heart or whatever. I thought there was going to be something like that. And as I've rewatched it, I think it makes sense in that And again, this is with the amount of time of layering, of reading other people's opinions and perspectives on this, that they really wanted to humanize this concept of, okay, the thing that the machines don't have is this concept of love, and that's what's important. And so it can transcend the physical barrier of death.

Mikah Sargent [01:13:59]:
Uh-huh.

Joe Esposito [01:13:59]:
Now, The part of me that's deep sci-fi fan and everything else goes, yeah, that doesn't make any sense. You can't restart somebody by kissing them. I'm sorry, this is not a Disney film. But as I think somebody pointed out, that they, they were going from the idea of Disney's true love's kiss. Why not? We don't know for a fact that that wouldn't do it.

Mikah Sargent [01:14:18]:
True.

Joe Esposito [01:14:18]:
True love is supposed to conquer all. In the best of all universes, you would hope that that would be the thing that overpowers everything else and defeats evil. So I'm okay with it. in that otherwise it is tough to explain it unless— here's the— I'll frame it like this. Would it have been more satisfying to have a sci-fi explanation for most audiences? I don't know. So for a general audience, which you have to remember, everybody, we're sci-fi fans, we'll eat anything up if you give us a 15-page manual explaining how it happened and every cog and wheel involved, because we're like, yes, explain it, great. But would my mother or sister want a satisfactory ending out of, oh, we rebooted this program and it restarted its heart? No, they want that.

Mikah Sargent [01:14:58]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:14:59]:
And it's fine. It works. It's, it's the human bond with the two of them. It's Trinity's been struggling with this idea that, is Neo the person I love? Now there is— you could get into determinism and, okay, is it great to be told the person you're gonna fall in love with, or did she come to it naturally, or was this an Oracle thing? that she internalized but didn't actually love him. Uh, you know, you can go crazy if you want to speculate that, but as a movie that's supposed to be spectacle and fun and give you a happy ending, I'm fine with it. It's not my favorite solution, but I understand why, and I don't think it's terrible. There are terrible decisions made in a lot of narrative storytelling movies where you go, what? No, that's Now you're just insulting my intelligence, man. Like, please don't try to fly this by me.

Joe Esposito [01:15:48]:
Uh, you know, like Man of Steel and Superman's father saying, let a bus full of kids die because they might find out you're an alien. What? Superman? Okay, but we're not gonna spend 2 hours on that. So in comparison to other things I've seen in movies that are like punching me in the face and calling me a dummy for thinking, this is the most minor of them. So—

Mikah Sargent [01:16:07]:
That's true.

Joe Esposito [01:16:07]:
And as far as the— biblical imagery and all that. I'm fine with all that. It's interesting because the movie can work as kind of a biblical allegory, but also, as I— as you've pointed out, as others have pointed out, it also works for people who see themselves in the movie. Uh, they're not satisfied with where they are in life for any number of reasons. It works as that. So it— if a movie can work for very different audiences in a similar way, there's smart writing involved.

Anthony Nielsen [01:16:33]:
Absolutely.

Joe Esposito [01:16:33]:
And this is, like I said, the most minor of my nitpicks is a kiss defeated the machines. Okay, that's fine, you know, I'm all right with it. That's okay.

Anthony Nielsen [01:16:42]:
Wait till you get to the sequel.

Mikah Sargent [01:16:44]:
Yeah, exactly.

Anthony Nielsen [01:16:45]:
There's another moment there where you're like, huh?

Mikah Sargent [01:16:48]:
What?

Joe Esposito [01:16:49]:
How?

Mikah Sargent [01:16:49]:
Uh, for me, the way that I justified it is from an earlier scene where we learned that if you die in the Matrix, then you die in real life because, uh, the brain and the body, uh, or the, the body— what did he say? Like, the body needs the brain to live. And what we know actually in real life, our world, is that there have been plenty of studies about the brain not being able to separate what is imagined from what is real. And that does result in all sorts of cognitive dysfunction, but also can be a positive cognitive process, like daily affirmations. Those are proven to actually work. Um, and so the way that I read it was, even though he died in the Matrix, his body outside of the Matrix was still functioning, ready to shut down and be done. But when she whispered into his ear, then the part of his brain that— it doesn't have to be an emotional process, frankly, it can be a completely logical process to say—

Anthony Nielsen [01:17:58]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:17:59]:
that, um, obviously, even if it's just— she's whispering in my ear right now. I can hear this. I can perceive this. That means I'm not dead. And therefore, in the Matrix, boom, I'm not dead because outside of it, I'm not dead. And the whole thing is this idea that, like, the brain can still process and function. So yeah, that's, that's how I ended up being able to solidify that that could happen. But it doesn't matter ultimately, because that is what happens in the movie.

Mikah Sargent [01:18:30]:
And so you got to deal with it.

Anthony Nielsen [01:18:33]:
I mean, yeah, like, outside of like a concrete reason, it just fits too much like thematically and like everything that leading up to that, it makes sense for how it shook out. But yeah, absolutely.

Joe Esposito [01:18:47]:
Well, and I also think what it does is it stands out because there's so many interesting ideas throughout the movie that are so layered and deep and heavy. And then you get to this one, you're like, oh, of course the kiss brought him back. That's the choice every storyteller makes making any of these movies. So it sticks out even though it's not, again, terrible. You go conventional where the rest of this movie not conventional. So it does kind of pop as like, oh, well, I could have written that, which is not necessarily an insult, but it does kind of, you know, highlight itself through that.

Mikah Sargent [01:19:16]:
Lastly, of course, we have, um, The— we have the kind of epilogue of Neo calling and saying, hey, look, you're, you're on notice now. I'm gonna wake up all these humans. They're gonna learn, and you're in trouble. Some of the trivia to kind of round things out: the score through the film is Don Davis. This sort of brassy music that comes in, music built on reflections and And of course, we have the soundtrack as well. Rob Zombie, Propellerheads, R.A.T.M. These are all kind of— it's a cut between the quiet work that comes from the score, and then the loud moments that come from— very '90s, I think, the loud stuff that comes from Rob Zombie and those folks. There's also a lot of rumor Or a talk about Keanu being, um, incredibly generous in the production and ongoing work of this film.

Mikah Sargent [01:20:21]:
Uh, apparently a lot of it's real, but it is sometimes inflated. He did share backend money and gave gifts, uh, for example, to the stunt and effects crew members on the sequels. But the thing that he gave— somebody said he gave away like $80 million or something.

Joe Esposito [01:20:37]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:20:37]:
Which, how would he have even made $80 million?

Anthony Nielsen [01:20:40]:
I haven't heard that one.

Mikah Sargent [01:20:40]:
Yeah, that obviously real story, incredibly wrong number. Who knows where that came from? Um, I had not heard that, but as I was going through and looking at the stuff after this, yeah, there are a lot of people— it's one of those stupid things where it gets circulated as a post and then it's like everybody just believes it. Nonsense. Um, didn't know this, that the sequels were shot all— were shot Survivor style, meaning back to back. And then the Animatrix, the Enter the Matrix game, Resurrections were also shot or recorded back to back. And I think that Resurrections is kind of like— isn't it? It's been a long time, but isn't it a bit meta?

Joe Esposito [01:21:28]:
It's very— that's almost a separate thing entirely as a commentary on how you can't just let things be set And you have to just keep regurgitating and remaking and revisiting. And hey, you might as well get paid if they're going to use your work anyway type of thing. So that's a completely separate— I, I don't even know if I consider that a Matrix movie. It's more of the Wachowskis being angry that Warner Brothers was going to make a movie without them movie, which is fine for that. But, uh, only watch it if you're into that, everybody. You can just stop after the 3 if you want the story of The Matrix as opposed to the commentary by the creators on their creation being taken from them potentially.

Mikah Sargent [01:22:06]:
Yeah. Lastly, I'll just ask overall, what do we take away from this film? I think one of the things for me is obviously seeing how much of the experimentation that took place in this film carried its way throughout action movies and sci-fi, sort of cyberpunk-y films. A lot of references to it, a lot of, of course, references within. But it certainly— it looms large in my memory as a standout and something that shaped the sci-fi of the time, and I think, again, continues to help to kind of frame sci-fi.

Anthony Nielsen [01:22:54]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:22:58]:
Arguably, it was not responsible for, but it threw some fuel on the fire of, is this all a simulation? And made it even more, I think, part of a pop— where before maybe it was in philosophy and scientific communities, it pushed it into popular culture to also be like, okay, here we are in the simulation now. And we we still think about it to this day, and especially now that we've got generative AI. And it's like we make 2 jokes about it. One is Skynet, and the other is this about how the AI was the start of the end of humanity.

Joe Esposito [01:23:44]:
Well, okay, so as far as the movie itself and how I remember it, the interesting part is this the first movie I remember. I think Blair Witch tried to do this too, but that was on a smaller scale, this multimedia approach to having a property where all this stuff was being made simultaneously. And you were like, The Animatrix explains what happened with the machine. Second Renaissance is probably one of the most wonderful pieces of animation you could watch as far as it's really, really well done. It's beautifully animated. The story is, is very compelling.

Mikah Sargent [01:24:16]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:24:16]:
feeling, and it directly explains what led up to what the first movie was. And then there's, you know, the Animatrix in general is great. The comics are very good, like the one that I've got has a lot of really interesting stories. The Animatrix games, as some people in the chat have pointed out, they did scenes with like Jada Pinkett Smith and some of the cast members for that game. It was meant to be canonically continuing the story to the point where Morpheus dies in the game, and it was big deal in the online one. I think it was Matrix Online. He died in that one, and that was a big part of it. So as far as trying to do this multimedia thing, that was really interesting, and I really got into it, like buying the comics and playing the games and all that stuff.

Joe Esposito [01:24:55]:
So I think it was pretty successful in terms of doing that. And the simulation stuff— 13th Floor, I think, came out the same year but got buried by this, which is also, I think, an equally good movie but far less action-oriented. So So nobody cared. It was just not an action movie. It was much more thoughtful in what it was doing. And you can trace all that back to like World on a Wire from the '70s and all these really interesting— but this is the one that blew it up into the popular consciousness is, okay, it made it very palatable for an ordinary person to understand, well, if the machine is so good at recreating something in your brain, you don't know the difference. How would you ever know?

Mikah Sargent [01:25:33]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:25:34]:
how if you were in a dream and it was so real, which most of us have had this thing where we wake up, wow, that was the most realistic dream I've ever had. I was sure that, you know, I was Superman flying around or whatever. So yeah, I think that— and I think for some people they took it too far and have decided to form their entire personalities around that concept. But again, that's a separate discussion. But I think you can trace most of what people consider the simulation idea today back to this, which is amazing as to think that you created something that, for good or ill, has impacted society and pop culture like that. Amazing.

Mikah Sargent [01:26:09]:
Yeah, absolutely. I can't imagine the, the pride. Any last thoughts?

Anthony Nielsen [01:26:13]:
Yeah, like, not just pop culture, it's also like how we do movies, you know, like this movie, Jurassic Park, Star Wars, you know, Matrix. This is when we started, you know, like Getting a lot of, you know, stunt coordinators and stuff, like working with actors. The Animatrix, like we see that now, like Star Wars Visions, where we get other creators, you know, doing little short vignettes around other properties. So like, there's a lot that you could trace back to The Matrix.

Mikah Sargent [01:26:48]:
Absolutely. The The last thing that I want to do here, we've covered the film. I mentioned this. I want to completely separate, okay, as we're answering this question about red pills versus blue pills, nothing to do with the culture of the time right now. My question for you is, it's not the metaphor, but the offer. Which one are you choosing now? Oh, I see. The red pill or the blue pill, I should say the blue pill or the red pill in terms of your life is comfortable and fake or it's true and it's brutal. I hate to say it, but if I'm being honest, I think I would do ignorance is bliss because I wouldn't do ignorance is bliss as far as Cypher went, because I— if it meant that I had to harm other people to be able to get back into it, Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:27:44]:
it, then no. But if it can just be me and I get to make that choice and I get to live in a world where, like, I— my dogs are healthy, my, you know, I, I like my significant other and I are both good and I'm living out my life, that's fine. Uh, because I don't even know, right? You don't know that the— that you're being used as a battery. That's the whole point. So I think that's the way I'd go rather than the weird snot slop. Maybe that makes me weak, but that's the truth of my situation. That's the truth of my, my, myself. What about the two of you?

Anthony Nielsen [01:28:25]:
I have a follow-up, so go ahead, Joe, then I'll still answer, but I have a follow-up question.

Joe Esposito [01:28:30]:
I, when I was younger and single, would have said, oh no, no, no, I need to know what's going on. I need to bring this down. This is terrible. terrible. Now that I am older, married, have a dog, and generally happy, healthy, and like my life, I'd love to tell you I was brave enough to say, well, I have to sacrifice all that for the good of everybody. And I'd like to believe I would, but I probably wouldn't. I probably would just say, unfortunately— and I hate to say this because this is the exact attitude don't like in general is this idea, well, it's all about me and I'm happy therefore. But if I'm being honest, not being in this situation unless this suddenly happens tomorrow, I probably would just choose to stay inside and not be the braver version that my younger self probably would have been when I had less to lose.

Mikah Sargent [01:29:24]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:29:24]:
Literally or figuratively.

Mikah Sargent [01:29:26]:
Yeah.

Joe Esposito [01:29:27]:
I hate to say it, but Yeah.

Anthony Nielsen [01:29:29]:
Yeah. I'm a wimp. Um, I don't care if this is a program. I still love him.

Mikah Sargent [01:29:34]:
Right.

Anthony Nielsen [01:29:36]:
Right.

Mikah Sargent [01:29:37]:
So sweet. And if, if you, if you have a déjà vu moment, who cares? I'm not interrogating that too much. If Henry walks by and then he walks by again, it's, it's normal.

Anthony Nielsen [01:29:48]:
My follow-up question, if you were gonna create a Matrix and set it at the peak of humanity's, or like Ooh. Was it the late '90s, or is it now?

Joe Esposito [01:30:00]:
Ooh.

Mikah Sargent [01:30:00]:
Oh my God, that is perhaps an impossible question. Ooh, because I think I might set it back to the year after Obama first became president. But do I get to be my age now, or do I have to be my age then? Because if I have to be my age then, I don't want it.

Anthony Nielsen [01:30:27]:
That's true. That's a— yeah, that kind of puts a wrinkle in things too.

Mikah Sargent [01:30:30]:
Yeah. The reason why I say that is while we do have some advances right now, I do think that the pandemic, of course, had a negative impact on particularly the way that companies see humans now, where it's much easier for companies to just go, You know, we're laying off a bajillion people and everyone just understands it now because everything's rough and hard. And I'm like, I don't know if— I don't know how true that actually is. And now they do get to use it as an excuse. And so while I appreciate some of the advances that we're making right now, and I imagine we'll make in the next 5, 6 years with the help specifically in medicine, stuff like that, of generative AI. I don't like everything else that's come along with it. So, yeah, I think I would sacrifice that to go back to a time where at least people felt a little bit more uncomfortable being racist and all types of phobic and stuff out loud, because it was still happening then, but people—

Anthony Nielsen [01:31:40]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:31:40]:
felt societally like they had to be quieter about it. And so I felt more at peace than I do now. So for me, that did feel like an advance.

Joe Esposito [01:31:51]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:31:51]:
What about you? What about you, Joe?

Joe Esposito [01:31:53]:
It's probably the same for me, and part of it is also everything that you said. But also, I miss the days— because I'm older, everybody, as you can clearly tell— I, I miss the days where the internet felt like it was wide open and it was going to be positive, even if that was an illusion, which it probably was, 'cause people ruin everything, I know. But there was a point where it felt like this was a wide open landscape and there was a lot of possibility still. We didn't just have iOS and Android and anything else, oh, sorry, nothing. Or, oh, it's Windows or macOS, oh, nothing else, sorry. You know, even though I know Linux, I know, but Linux at that time, nobody wanted to use it except for the hardcore nerds, which is fine. I'm one of you too, but let's not pretend Linux was pretty back then. It was not.

Joe Esposito [01:32:42]:
But it just felt like it was more of— here's a term that nobody uses anymore, but the information superhighway. It felt like you were going somewhere, whereas now it feels like, oh, everything that's technology and culture in the world is attacking you and you have to either have your shields up all the time, which is a miserable way to exist, again, to go back to the Cypher metaphor, or you just have to be cynical about everything. Every new technology, you just have to sit there and go, well, what's the downside? Because it's almost certainly going to be as bad as any of the benefit. Whereas there was a naivete for a while where it was like, oh, wow, high-speed internet, we're all going to connect with each other. We'll understand each other better. We'll be better people, a more connected world. The barriers will come down.

Mikah Sargent [01:33:26]:
Right.

Joe Esposito [01:33:27]:
And it— and again, it's just another hippie thing from the '60s and '70s, which also didn't work out. It's the same thing. I'm not pretending that I don't know how the world works, but it felt like there was sunshine coming up over the horizon, as opposed to now where it's like, is that the sunshine or is that the fire from the oil well that just blew up because somebody didn't do their job and OSHA overlooked it? Oh, it's all miserable. And great, it's because we need a data center. You're just like, oh God, why? Yeah, even though, yes, objectively medicine's the best it's ever been, uh, in many cases we do have better— we're in better positions. But as Micah pointed out, that there's also this, oh, you know what, I can just be hateful, it's fun, screw you, why not?

Mikah Sargent [01:34:11]:
And it's fun and it's fine.

Joe Esposito [01:34:12]:
Why did that come back? Why did we not just stomp that out? How is anybody saying that Nazis are some good people?

Mikah Sargent [01:34:18]:
What?

Joe Esposito [01:34:19]:
We didn't solve this problem back with Captain America in the '40s comics where he was punching Hitler in the face and everybody understood that that was good. So yeah, I guess I'd say at the same time. Sorry for the mostly cynical rant there, everybody.

Mikah Sargent [01:34:33]:
No, I mean, it's the truth of the situation, frankly. Anthony, did you say what time?

Anthony Nielsen [01:34:38]:
No. Yeah, I'd either dial it back a bit, maybe somewhere Before the pandemic, or if 10 years out, you know.

Mikah Sargent [01:34:50]:
I was gonna say, yeah, can we push it into the future and see?

Anthony Nielsen [01:34:52]:
I'd roll the dice on that. Yeah, maybe.

Mikah Sargent [01:34:56]:
Well, um, I guess we'll have to check back in on this in 10 years and see if you, if you hold true. But in any case, uh, I want to thank everybody for being here today for the Media Club, our coverage of The Matrix film. As I mentioned before, we have a poll for selecting the next bit of media.

Anthony Nielsen [01:35:17]:
I forgot to set that up, but I will create one.

Mikah Sargent [01:35:20]:
We are kind of keeping it as a rolling list, so the things that are already on the list stay there. As one drops off, I replace it. So with The Matrix dropping off the list now that it's been chosen, I added— I wanted to find a well-known B-movie that is regarded as a good bad film. And so I chose Troll 2, which, if you haven't heard of it, the best thing to know about it first and foremost is that it's not actually a sequel. Apparently, one of the people who was in charge of getting to title it wanted to use the success of a separate film called Troll Troll that had come out earlier, so they put a 2 after the name. Or I think the first one was called Trolls, uh, okay, or the original film was called Trolls. Again, this has nothing to do with trolls, and in fact Troll 2 isn't even about trolls, it's about goblins. So makes very little sense, um, but apparently is hilariously bad.

Mikah Sargent [01:36:26]:
And one of the main things about it is the Italian director of the film was also the writer of the film, and he hired a bunch of American English-speaking actors to play the roles. And they begged him, please, you, you know, uh, English is your second language, and frankly, you're not very versed in it. And so a lot of the lines that you've written don't actually make sense or are very stilted and strange. Can reword it? And he said no. So the delivery is what the director asked for. And I really hope that you all choose this film because I really want to watch it and talk about it. It sounds hilarious. And it ended up— there's a documentary that came out.

Mikah Sargent [01:37:17]:
Let me see what it's called. The Worst Movie Ever Made. Is that what it was?

Anthony Nielsen [01:37:22]:
Yeah.

Mikah Sargent [01:37:25]:
No, let's see.

Joe Esposito [01:37:26]:
As an aside, everybody, get into Italian filmmaking from the '80s because this is not uncommon and it is a smorgasbord of wonderful trash. You will have so many treasures of terrible decision-making. Oh, Italian filmmaking, I love it. It's so bad in the '80s. It's like the Power Glove. It's just so bad.

Mikah Sargent [01:37:47]:
Oh, it's called Best Worst Movie. And that is a documentary about Troll 2 that came out in 2009, Best Worst Movie. We're not watching that, to be clear. We are watching Troll 2. But Best Worst Movie is the documentary made about the film, and I believe it has the actor who played the child star of Troll 2 as, um, the director. I can't wait. Um, if y'all don't choose it, I'll end up just watching it on my own. But But I want to save it to see if it can end up being chosen.

Mikah Sargent [01:38:20]:
The Room, of course, is always on the list, but The Room is also kind of softcore porn. And so I felt a little weird about making that a media club pick. But if anyone hasn't seen that movie, that's a movie to watch with friends. It's hilarious to watch with friends and just go, what is going on? I ordered the DVD and in it, it comes with It comes with this beautiful headshot.

Anthony Nielsen [01:38:50]:
Oh no.

Mikah Sargent [01:38:51]:
But here's the best part about the headshot. Do you know what's happened on the back of it? It's an order for Tommy Bahama's— or Tommy Bahama— Tommy Wiseau's underwear. So you can order his underwear.

Joe Esposito [01:39:04]:
Well, there's nothing gross about that. Everybody is there. Okay.

Mikah Sargent [01:39:08]:
He's so weird. Oh, golly.

Joe Esposito [01:39:12]:
I—

Mikah Sargent [01:39:12]:
we sat after we watched the movie, we sat and watched the commentary of the movie, and he gets asked like, you know, why did you do this film? I just want everyone to be happy. I want them to watch this film and never say a mean thing to each other. And he's amazing. Anyway, uh, weird, but it's not The Room. Like I told you, uh, Troll 2 is on the list now. Thank you for being here for Media Club. We'll be back next month with another episode. And of course, thank you to my wonderful co-hosts today.

Mikah Sargent [01:39:47]:
Anthony Nielsen, thank you for running things behind the scenes and getting this all set up. I appreciate it.

Anthony Nielsen [01:39:54]:
Oh yes, glad to be here. I'll set up the poll and everyone could vote in announcements when I, when I do post it momentarily.

Mikah Sargent [01:40:01]:
And Joe, thank you so very much for the amazing trailer that you created. And of course, thank you as always for your amazing commentary. I really do enjoy getting to talk about media with you, so thank you for, uh, sharing your time with us.

Joe Esposito [01:40:14]:
Thank you for not barring me from the club by now because I don't shut up.

Mikah Sargent [01:40:18]:
Uh, thank you all out there again for your support. Uh, we couldn't do this, or frankly any of the stuff that we do, without your support. And so hopefully these fun moments, um, add to the experience for you. And I'm telling you, if you're out there and one of these shows or bits of media really calls to you, come be part of this. And if you're a little nervous about it or something and you want to talk about it first, you can direct message me and we can chat to see what would make it feel more comfy for you to do so. Because I know for a lot of people, that's what it boils down to, is kind of like, oh, I got to be on camera.

Joe Esposito [01:40:58]:
Right.

Mikah Sargent [01:40:58]:
I gotta do this, or I gotta do that. So I'd love to address some of that too, so we can get some more voices in here.

Joe Esposito [01:41:03]:
Yeah, show up. Look at me and I show up.

Mikah Sargent [01:41:05]:
Look at me, I showed up. We're all here, we're doing our thing. All right, thanks everybody, and I'll see you again.

Anthony Nielsen [01:41:13]:
Well, hold on. Not next month, 'cause we got the book club. I mean, we'll still see. Yeah, it won't be media club, but—

Mikah Sargent [01:41:20]:
It'll be book club next month, that's right. Then we'll do a movie. Yes. Oh, hi, Mark. Yes, that's right. That is what the room is, Paul. Um, all right, now I'll say it. Goodbye, everybody.

Mikah Sargent [01:41:29]:
Vote in the poll, and we'll see you back for another non-Book Media Club in a couple of months.

Joe Esposito [01:41:36]:
Bye-bye!