This Week in Space 197 Transcript

Please be advised this transcript is AI-generated and may not be word for word. Time codes refer to the approximate times in the ad-supported version of the show.

Tariq Malik [00:00:00]:
Coming up on This Week in Space, there's a new crew of astronauts headed to the International Space Station courtesy of SpaceX's Crew-12 launch. Meanwhile, the company VAST has brokered their own flight to the ISS to practice for commercial LEO destinations. And on the global stage of space exploration, we have Aarti Holla-Maini, Director of the UN Office for Outer Space Affairs, and Rick Jenae, Director of Expanding Frontiers, to explain exactly where we're going in space. As a world. Check it out.

Rod Pyle [00:00:37]:
This is This Week in Space, episode number 197, recorded on February 13th, 2026: Inside UNOOSA. Hello and welcome to another episode of This Week in Space, the Inside UNOOSA edition. I'm Rod Pyle, editor-in-chief, Bad Aster Magazine., and I'm here with my man Tariq Malik of Space.com. Hello, Tariq.

Tariq Malik [00:00:58]:
Hello. Hello, Rod. Happy, happy episode day. Always, always a pleasure.

Rod Pyle [00:01:01]:
And a better man, Rick Janet of the National Space Society and Expanding Frontiers.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:01:06]:
Hi, Rick. Hey, great to be here.

Rod Pyle [00:01:09]:
Thank you. This week we're going to be speaking in a few minutes with Aarti Holla-Maini, who is the director of the UN Office for Outer Space Affairs, or UNOOSA, but we're going to talk more about that in a minute. Before we start, please don't forget to do us a solid and make sure to like and subscribe and support this podcast in whatever ways you deem appropriate, because it means the world and beyond to us. And now a Fresh Space joke, as it last week, from Barry Hayworth.

Tariq Malik [00:01:36]:
Hey Tariq.

Rod Pyle [00:01:37]:
Yes, Rod. What did Princess Leia say when she got the plans from the Rebel spies and had to get to the spaceport to return to Alderaan, but her speeder was broken and the rental place only had a small pony to hire out?

Tariq Malik [00:01:48]:
I don't know. That's a very specific setup. What did she say?

Rod Pyle [00:01:53]:
She walked up to it and said, help me, only one small pony.

Tariq Malik [00:01:56]:
You're my only hope.

Rod Pyle [00:02:00]:
Wow.

Tariq Malik [00:02:00]:
Very, very— actually, a lot of setup, but it was very creative.

Rod Pyle [00:02:05]:
It was. It was kind of clever. Now, I've heard that some folks want to encase us in carbonite when it's joke time on this show. But you have the power to help. Send us your best space jokes or whatever you got at twist@twit.tv. And we'll blame it on you on the air. And now onward to headline.

Tariq Malik [00:02:25]:
News.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:02:26]:
Headline.

Rod Pyle [00:02:31]:
News. Kind of missed that one. All right.

Tariq Malik [00:02:33]:
I think I got it. I think I got it.

Rod Pyle [00:02:34]:
We'll see.

Tariq Malik [00:02:35]:
We'll see it on the replay.

Rod Pyle [00:02:36]:
Crew 12 launches the ISS to replace the ailing crew member from Crew 11.

Tariq Malik [00:02:42]:
Well, the ailing, whoever it was, it's the medical evac relief crew is what this is. The space station will soon be back at full strength. It's been a long day, it's been a long day. They, they launched at 5:51 or 5:15, uh, in the morning today. But a new crew, a very smooth launch on a SpaceX Dragon Freedom, uh, lifting off from Cape Canaveral Space Launch Complex 40, now at Cape Canaveral Space Force Station. Um, SpaceX has taken the crew access arm off of Pad 39B. We will not see any new, uh, Crew Dragon launches with astronauts on board from NASA's historic pad. They've shifted fully over to Cape Canaveral, and we've got 4 astronauts on the way, commanded by Jessica Meir.

Tariq Malik [00:03:22]:
And we've got Jack Hathaway, NASA astronaut, as pilot. Sophie Adnaud, the French astronaut, is representing Europe. And then we have Alexei— I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get this wrong, my apologies— but the Russian cosmonaut is Alexei Fedyaev. Yeah, that's right, on, on the mission. Very interesting launch though, Rod, because this is the first the first one in a while that had a lot of comments and, and moments with the crew as well. This is replacing the 4 astronauts from Crew 11 who returned home early, about a month or so early. And this mission was moved up a month from March to try to make up, make up that, that difference there that will leave the astronauts on the space station shorthanded. So hopefully when they arrive on Valentine's Day, by the way, Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.

Tariq Malik [00:04:15]:
When they arrive on Valentine's Day, the space station will be back to 7 people, full strength, for the next 8 months.

Rod Pyle [00:04:22]:
Well, that's good.

Leo Laporte [00:04:23]:
Yeah, exactly.

Rod Pyle [00:04:24]:
Because you got to have enough people there to keep that, that creaky machine running.

Tariq Malik [00:04:27]:
And to keep the science going too. They, you know, yeah, it spends most of their time on maintenance if they don't have this extra staff.

Rod Pyle [00:04:33]:
That's right. Um, here's a headline that landed kind of close because we've, we've had Max Hode on the show before, but Vast was chosen. Vast, the maker of the upstart commercial space station that's coming in behind Axiom.

Tariq Malik [00:04:46]:
And Voyager It's called Haven 1.

Rod Pyle [00:04:48]:
That's right, Haven 1, which is going to launch, we hope, the Pathfinder mission this year, uh, was chosen by NASA for the 6th commercial flight to the ISS.

Tariq Malik [00:04:56]:
Tell us. This is really interesting because we've had 5 so far and they've pretty much been all SpaceX, uh, or pardon me, all Axiom-brokered missions, Axiom Space. So now Vast is getting in on that by also brokering a trip with SpaceX to fly their own set of private astronauts on a, on a Crew Dragon to the station for, you know, whatever certain period of time, a couple weeks usually, these missions last going on. What I think is very interesting is it really kind of is setting the stage for a commercial space station competition. This is clearly Vast trying to get some experience about running space station operations and science and all of the, the, the ins and outs of what that is like. And then they're going to probably factor that into how they're going to operate Haven. They already want to use SpaceX for transportation to their Haven space station. This will give them a lot of insight about what they need.

Tariq Malik [00:05:53]:
Meanwhile, at the same time this week, Axiom has announced a bunch of new funding for both their own commercial space station as well as for spacesuit development because they're building spacesuits for NASA for Artemis. And so, so there's a bit of back and forth between these two companies over who's going to be first to get this commercial station off the ground and also, I guess, push out even further.

Rod Pyle [00:06:16]:
All right. That's it for our headlines this week. We've got a lot to discuss. So let's pivot over to Rick Genest, who has been a frequent guest co-host on the show. Rick's in the house. And among his many deeds in this life, besides being an astronomer with a— excuse me, astrophysicist, got to get that right— with a PhD from Caltech, which always impresses the heck out of me, Rick built and runs Expanding Frontiers. Which is helping to create the new space entrepreneurship in South Texas and beyond, and is, uh, over the last couple years has been grabbing up all the fallow ground at the National Space Society and re-energizing so many parts of that organization. It's, it's kind of hard to look at because the light is so blinding.

Rod Pyle [00:07:02]:
So, um, how's that for an introduction? Thank you so much. Since you've kind of reactivated our connection with the UN— it was always there, but we hadn't been doing as much with it as we could— maybe you could talk about about your work with the new UN, your work with our guest Aarti, and introduce her to us.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:07:21]:
Yeah, certainly. So, um, so as you mentioned, uh, as the vice chair of the International Committee at the National Space Society, um, I've had the honor of leading the delegation, uh, of NSS observers at, uh, the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. Um, and this is sort of the, uh, the forum, uh, in the world that convenes, uh, state actors that, uh, We're basically discussing policies and soft law, if you will, around humanity's activity in space. So as we know, that's a very dynamic thing right now with all the new technology that's coming on board, the private actors that are coming on board. So it's very, very exciting to be involved in that. There's been some recent changes that have been going on, especially with a new director that's taken the helm. And it's been exciting to see, see all of that evolve. And as you were saying before, seeing how, you know, the role that NSS plays in that building on what was there.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:08:31]:
NSS has been an observer to COPUS for 25, 26 years or so. So we definitely had some very forward-thinking people that, you know, made it possible for us to be there. And, you know, now, you know, we're taking seriously our role as an observer. It's sort of a steward of information, a steward of the history that is going on at the committee, and also being experts or having access to the experts in the technology that is being developed. That we, you know, we provide this resource. The idea is we provide a resource to the delegates, the member states, so that they can better make informed decisions. And we can sort of, you know, provide that second and third order effects to the various decisions that they make. So they are informed as much as possible when they move forward.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:09:33]:
And so recently, Ardi Holomayani took the helm of the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs. And I have to say, there was an immediate inflection point when she took the helm. She's coming from industry, and she definitely, one, understands the importance of observers and private industry and how they could play a role. But she also understands that Cold War is— it's made up of member states, and it is a political organization, and there's a lot to navigate there, which he's been doing an absolutely fantastic job in doing. And you could see the environment change. You could see that there's a vision behind what's happening, and it's being very skillfully handled. So very excited that we're able to get— that we have Aarti on the show with us today. And of course, I should mention that she is coming to NSS's International Space Development Conference 2026, which will be in June of this year.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:10:43]:
So if people want to learn more about what she's doing after the show, maybe even get a chance to shake her hand personally, she will be— she'll be with us in the Washington area. So with that, I'd like to welcome Aarti.

Rod Pyle [00:10:58]:
Well, you stole my thunder because I was going to mention that everybody on this episode I think, including hoping Tariq will, will be at the International Space Development Conference in June. So we'd love to see as many of you there as possible. And if Tariq does manage to show up, we'll do a podcast episode live from there and you can sit in the room and hoot and holler and throw wadded up paper at us and do whatever you want because we love our listeners. All right. We'll be back in just a few minutes with our special guest. So stand by.

Leo Laporte [00:11:25]:
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Rod Pyle [00:14:45]:
Now back to space. We are back and I'd like to welcome Aarti Holla-Maini, who's the director of the UN Office for Outer Space Affairs. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for having me. It's quite an honor having you here. We're, we're used to important guests, but I think you top the list. And we also want to welcome Rick Genest, our occasional guest co-host, who's the founder and executive director of Expanding Frontiers and the vice president of technology and entrepreneurship for the National Space Society.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:15:13]:
Hello, Rick. Hello everyone.

Rod Pyle [00:15:14]:
It's great to be here. Thanks. Thanks for coming. Aarti, before we dive into all the conversation we're going to have, can you give us a little bit of background on your path, how you found your way into space policy and ultimately to leading UNOOSA?

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:15:30]:
Sure. I actually fell into the space industry, the space sector after my MBA, and it was really by accident. I was told by the MBA school who accepted me that they were really worried I'd be one of the few people who it took a long time to find a job afterwards. And the first job I was offered after 2 months of stAarting into the MBA school was Daimler-Benz Aerospace in Munich. And after succeeding in the assessment center of 3 days and various tests and interviews that they had, they offered me a job. And because the MBA school had put the fear of God in me that I'd never find a job, I took it. And so that was my beginning, the beginning of my space journey. And policy came I think I started more in strategy, but it was always to do with a program that would respond to European interests at the time.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:16:26]:
So I was working on GNSS, which ultimately became the Galileo program. That's when I started in Munich and then moved to satellite operators. And when I moved from Munich to Brussels, of course, any job in Brussels is always about advocacy and lobbying the European Union in pAarticular. So that's where my policy journey really began. I was with the satellite operators lobbying on satellite communications policy from the regulatory side, from the sustainable development side, if you will, humanitarian communications, emergency communications, and so on. And of course, the digital divide. But after almost 19 years, I left. I joined NorthStar Earth and Space, and I was Executive Vice President for Sustainability there for only 3 months because then I was offered the job at UNOOSA.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:17:21]:
And when you're offered a senior job in space in the UN, you don't say no.

Rod Pyle [00:17:26]:
So there we are.

Leo Laporte [00:17:27]:
Funny, I've never had that experience.

Tariq Malik [00:17:30]:
I'll note that down for when the opportunity arises, but hopefully not for quite some time.

Rod Pyle [00:17:35]:
Right.

Tariq Malik [00:17:35]:
But well, Aarti, I was just curious though, like when you were younger, was space something that you were very much aware and interested of? And then you found this opportunity and this path? Or was it really like a found passion that's led you to then, or was it always in the back of your mind there?

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:17:52]:
It was never in the back of my mind. And I feel so bad because there's so many people who have dreamt of space and wanted to work in space since they were young and always looked into the sky and the stars and na na na. I mean, yeah, I like that, but only because I'm a bit of a romantic, but not because of any academic or professional interest at all. So this is really something that I I fell into— I mean, I don't really believe in accidents. I think things are meant to happen at the right time for a right reason. And indeed, I believe I'm here because I'm meant to be here to do what I'm doing right now at this time. But no, it wasn't something I dreamt of at all. Not at all.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:18:36]:
I didn't actually even want.

Tariq Malik [00:18:40]:
A career.

Rod Pyle [00:18:42]:
Wow.

Tariq Malik [00:18:42]:
Yeah. Well, you know, one of— I think one of the big questions that I had for our listeners who may not know is kind of what the committee for the— I guess how UNOOSA and the— how do you even pronounce it? Is it COPUS? COPUS. How they're different from each other and how COPUS connects to the UN Space Treaties themselves.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:19:09]:
So let's start with UNOOSA. UNOOSA is an office of the Secretariat. So I report to the Secretary-General. And we're not a specialized entity like WHO or FAO or ITU. We're not a separate agency or entity as such. We are part of the Secretariat, but it is a standalone office within the Secretariat. There are a few of them.. And we are— it's the global hub for space cooperation, law, capacity building.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:19:46]:
It was stood up back in, I think it was 1958, simply to provide secretariat services to the committee. The committee is made up of member states. The committee was also set up back at that time. And so our function back in those days was purely to provide secretariat services, to organize the committee, convene it, you know, send out agendas, send out invitations, and so on and so forth. It is over the years that we have acquired greater mandates. In 1972, we acquired a mandate on space applications to promote space applications for the benefit, for the peaceful uses of space application for the benefit of member states and all the different policy objectives. That was way before the Millennium Development Goals, let alone the Sustainable Development Goals. And we, I think the main things that we do are convening.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:20:40]:
As the United Nations, our greatest power is being a neutral and trusted body to convene. So we keep member states at the table and we bring them around the table. We bring more and more member states around the table. We provide capacity-building services in space law and in accessing satellite imagery, satellite data, training member states how to use it, helping member states put law and policy into place, helping them understand why the treaties are relevant for them, what's the benefit of that, how to establish a space agency, how to establish a regulator. Right now we have more than 60 countries who are asking for these services, and a lot of them are, we want to put a spaceport on our territory, what do we need to do in legal regulatory terms to make that happen? Also, we have, for example, an Access to Space for All program. We've helped at least 5 countries launch their very, very first satellites into space. So developing countries who may not otherwise have, certainly not the national capacity and knowledge, but the opportunity and the capabilities to actually build and launch satellites. We have programs where we work with space agencies and even companies who offer their expertise and kind of a handholding role to teams from from developing countries to allow them to establish themselves and develop those competencies.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:22:12]:
So very, very inspiring stories that come from our office. It's a really tiny office. Because there's a liquidity crisis on and there's a whole streamlining of the UN going on, we have just been reduced from 25 people on regular UN budget to 21. So it's completely Not intuitive at all. When you think of space, when you think of the space sector and everything that's happening, it's dynamic, it's moving, it's growing, growing, growing. The office, on the other hand, is kind of shrinking. But I'm used to working for very, very small organizations, but punching way, way above our weight. And that's what we do.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:22:51]:
There's a lot you can do when you're just smart about it. So, so that's so much for Yunusa. Oh, one thing I should mention, space sustainability is a really big issue right now. We maintain a UN register of all objects that are launched into outer space. This is a treaty obligation on the Secretary-General himself, which is executed by our office. This is a really critical tool for transparency, especially when there's objects landing back on Earth and countries are wondering, okay, who does this belong to? How do we contact the owner? What, you know, the register is like an address book of who owns what in space, and that's something that we maintain. So we really work across legal, technical, policy domains to support different governments in different space-related matters. One other thing probably I should mention, with so many natural disasters happening and increasing, so many increasing severe weather events on all continents, like even in the middle of Europe where we are and you don't expect these things to happen, they always happen somewhere else, right? Well, no, they're happening everywhere now.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:23:56]:
We have a program called UN SPIDER, that's Space-Based Information for Disaster and Emergency Response. And that is where we facilitate access to satellite imagery and data. We train member states how to use it. We make sure they know how to trigger the Charter on Space and Major Disasters, and so on and so forth. Lots of other programs, Space for Youth, Space for Women, Space for Climate Change, the Space for Ocean Alliance that we've just recently established with other space agencies. Lots and lots of programs that that are all to do with the peaceful and inclusive use of space applications, technology, data services, and so on. COPUS, on the other hand, is the committee. So that is the seat of global governance for space.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:24:40]:
It's where all of the space treaties have been born from. So we have 6 decades of governance which stems from COPUS. It is a multilateral forum. Consensus takes time to build, so it has— it takes some time. It is slow. We have the Long-Term Sustainability Guidelines, which were adopted in 2019. They took a decade to negotiate, but at least they embody the political will, the shared political will of all the member states who are members of the committee. That's 110 member states right now.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:25:15]:
We are secretariat to that, but the committee has moved forward from treaties. We don't live at a time where you can successfully negotiate a binding treaty today. The geopolitics of our world will not allow that. But the Committee has evolved from— it's moved from treaties to principles to guidelines to recommendations. And ultimately, power to enforce, power to implement resides with member states. And I think that reflects very much the world in which we live in, member states don't want to renounce power to some multilateral body. They want sovereignty. They want their own ability to implement to suit their domestic and national points of view and the state of evolution of their own economies and so on.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:26:05]:
And so the COPUS really reflects that in the way it works. We are doing a lot of, um, yeah, it's like capacity building but for delegates. So we're in Vienna, the member state delegates that come here. We've just ended 2 weeks of our scientific and technical subcommittee, but the diplomats here in Vienna, they have to interface with many different, um, UN agencies and entities. You have nuclear here, we have the, um, Preparatory Commission for a Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, we have IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency. Here we have UNIDO, that's the United Nations Industrial Development Organization. You have UNODC, the Office of Drugs and Crime, and then you have space. These are all very specialized areas, but different areas, and the diplomats here have to deal with all of them.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:27:00]:
So space is only one small piece of their portfolios. So it's very important that we make sure that they are informed and educated repeatedly as the space sector evolves.. And so I've come to the UN from industry. Many people have been in the UN for decades. They're really UN people. I'm trying to become one, but I'm also trying to open the eyes of this system, which has worked in one way for so long, and make them realize that when it comes to space, you're not going to be able to take efficient, effective decisions and have valuable outcomes that you can implement unless you take informed decisions, and they necessarily must be informed also by industry, who are the ones facing the brunt of the operational realities, collision risk, the need for coordination, the need to share information, and so on and so forth. So our role, our capacity building role, is also turning inwards towards Vienna and the committee that we serve, and not just outwards to member states and their local needs.

Rod Pyle [00:28:06]:
It's twofold. Okay, uh, let me jump to a break real quick and then we'll be back with Rick. Stand by everybody.

Leo Laporte [00:28:10]:
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Dr. Rick Janet [00:31:52]:
So, Aarti, um, I've had the, the honor of, um, being an observer, of course, through National Space Society, um, for the last 4 years or so. So relatively new, but I've been able to see how when you came in, uh, immediately there was a culture and environment shift, uh, or, you know, an inflection point. And your leadership is clear. It was clearly visible. It was great to see. And of course, together with that, you recognize, and you've mentioned it earlier, that, you know, the space activity is accelerating at a rapid pace. There's so many changes going on, new actors coming in, not only just state actors, but also private actors and so forth.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:32:38]:
I'd love to hear your thoughts on where you see UNOOSA and COPUOS evolving. Say, you know, what is it going to be in 5 years? What is going.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:32:49]:
To be in 10 years? I sincerely hope that it will be even more effective and efficient. I mean, I say this as a hope, but you really have to commit to making what you hope for happen. So I'm trying to do that. I mean, we have rising congestion, we have debris risks, collision risk. They're a very, very present challenge and we don't see those risks risks diminishing in years to come. So a much stronger focus on space sustainability, including debris remediation, not just mitigation, space traffic coordination, lunar traffic coordination. All of these are issues where the committee will have to, in the, in the very short term, maybe in the next 2 to 3 years, provide solutions. When it comes to 5 to 10 years, There are new issues that are coming online, for example, the environmental impact of space activities.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:33:45]:
So UNOOSA and UNEP, the United Nations Environmental Programme, we're working together right now just to understand this issue better. We, you know, when you think about collision risk and congestion in orbit, common sense tells you that, okay, we need to make sure that objects which are in orbit are brought down once they end their useful life. Life. So right now, objects which are in low Earth orbit, typically the standard around the world is 25 years after they end their life, within 25 years they must be deorbited. The FCC in the US has reduced that to 5 years. But when you speak to the environmental community who care about the ozone layer and the depletion of ozone and all of this, they're very concerned about increasing amounts of debris burning up in the atmosphere because either large chunks do not burn up and then they land on the territory, which brings its own risks naturally, or they do burn up and then you have lots of pAarticles which remain in the atmosphere. And those pAarticles are accelerating ozone reactions and ozone-depleting reactions. And so on.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:34:58]:
We're just beginning to understand this kind of issue. So it's certainly not ripe for guidelines or any kind of governance. But in 5 to 10 years, we must have understood it far better. And probably the committee will then need to include these kind of issues, which today are very new, but include them on their agenda and start thinking about them. We're also, if I may, we're also working with IKEA on on airspace integration. So if all of those countries that I mentioned earlier actually do put spaceports into place and start launching, already the cadence of launches is increasing. If it starts increasing from many more geographies, from many more countries, and impacting a much wider aviation footprint, then that again is going to be something that needs to come from from the space and aviation regulators back to the committee for their consideration. So I think deeper engagement with other sectors, deeper engagement with non-governmental actors, industry, academia, civil society, a growing pAarticipation with, from developing and emerging space nations, regardless of whether they have space agencies, regardless of whether they have satellites, All of these things are really about positioning UNOOSA as a global reference point for so many different aspects concerning space and COPUS.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:36:26]:
As well as the home of global governance. So just to follow up on that, I'm curious about your thoughts on the Outer Space Treaty. Is that going to, is there going to be a next version of that? Is it going to be modernized? Is it going to stay the way it is?

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:36:41]:
How are you How do you see that going? So we would never want to touch any of the treaties. The treaties are huge success, pieces of success of the committee. They might be old, but they're not out of date. It's amazing when you think back to when they were adopted in the late '60s, the '70s, how much what foresight they embodied, what fun those diplomats must have had trying to think about what could possibly happen. I mean, you know, we've been contacted by at least 5 countries this year from in 2025 and beginning of '26 who have received debris landing on their territories and asking us, you know, what can happen? Can we claim compensation? You know, what should we do now? Well, the rules, the rights and obligations associated with that eventuality are embodied The Liability Convention, the Agreement on the Rescue and Return of Astronauts, which are all decades old. So we wouldn't want to touch them. If you open them up, you'll never close them again. So we certainly don't want to touch them.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:37:53]:
But as I said, the committee's working on different guidelines and recommendations and principles, for example, for mining the moon, mining asteroids, so space resources, Lunar coordination, space traffic coordination mechanisms that should emerge in the coming years. So your question on the Outer Space Treaty, wouldn't touch it, wouldn't touch it. These treaties need to be complemented with new instruments and new mechanisms which are responsive and agile and can be flexible.

Rod Pyle [00:38:30]:
To a very fast-evolving environment. Environment. All right, uh, thank you for that answer. Let's go to a quick break and we'll be right back. Stand by. So, Aarti, you touched on the Moon, and of course that's a big part of the news that those of us in the space press are covering like mad these days. And it's become even more of a news item with Mr. Musk's announcement about, nah, I'm not going to build a city on Mars, we'll build one on the Moon because it's closer, which makes sense.

Rod Pyle [00:38:55]:
But he kind of came around to it later than we might have liked. But, uh, since we're going to have lunar activity ramping up this decade, hopefully hopefully with a couple of countries, China and the US, getting back to the Moon somewhere in the 2030 window, maybe earlier. As this ramps up and there are going to be different national entities there and they are looking at resource extraction of water ice and possibly metals from the surface, how will the organization look at the non-appropriation principle and what is in a way that helps promote transparency and avoids conflict, because above all, we'd.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:39:34]:
Like to avoid conflict on the Moon.

Rod Pyle [00:39:38]:
Absolutely.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:39:38]:
And there's a lot of goodwill and a lot of shared understanding that that is the goal. The Outer Space Treaty that you mentioned is still the stAarting point, absolutely the stAarting point. It bans national appropriation, but it doesn't explicitly prohibit using resources. And that's the question that countries are now working through together. So COPUS is holding structured dialogues on resource use, on benefit sharing, and on peaceful cooperation. Since, I think, 2021, we've had a working group on the legal aspects of space resource activities, and that working group has drafted a set of recommended principles which they're currently negotiating. And those principles discuss transparency, coordination, and inclusiveness as top priorities. There are things like providing prior notification that countries need to share information about where they're going and what they're doing.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:40:34]:
They need to consult if missions might interfere with each other. There's other principles on resource activities need to follow international law and remain peaceful. Extraction cannot become a claim of sovereignty, minimizing debris. I mean, the whole issue of what do you do with debris around and on the Moon, it's not like you can take it to a graveyard orbit or you can make it burn up in an atmosphere anymore. So that's a really big issue, especially because the Moon is just 1/6 of the size of Earth. So the approach is very It's done with purpose. We're not waiting for a crisis. COPES has historically always done anticipatory governance.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:41:21]:
We're trying to do that, of course, with a much shorter lead time, but we're still trying to do that for the Moon. And very important to remember is that even though you have a lot of companies who are active, states remain responsible for the activities also done by their own companies, and nothing is changing that principle at this point. So we're still trying to work on anticipatory governance so that lunar activity.

Tariq Malik [00:41:54]:
Develops cooperatively and not competitively. Yeah, I guess I had a bit of a follow-up there because you mentioned earlier about the value of an industry perspective within the office as well as for the needs ahead in how things are going to evolve, I guess, across the board when it comes to space. And I'm wondering how you see at UNESA, like the ability to engage with these new companies or perhaps ones that are taking a bigger stake in space internationally to ensure that everyone is, I guess, a good player, but also mindful of the potential needs for safeguarding just the use of space overall so that.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:42:38]:
It'S there for everybody? Sorry, so what's the question about how.

Tariq Malik [00:42:42]:
We engage the commercial sector? Is it engaging commercial sectors on a company-by-company basis, or as you mentioned earlier, is it ensuring that the nations themselves are minding the company, you know, their.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:42:58]:
Involvement to the rules and whatnot? Excuse me. So there's different levels to answer that question. Certainly, we are encouraging and trying to really urge member states to implement guidelines and whatever is agreed on at the global level. So the LTS guidelines, the Long-Term Sustainability Guidelines, for example, are brilliant when you look at them And when I saw them, I couldn't believe that they had come from COPUS, but then I learned that they had been born of an expert group. And an expert group is a mechanism that foresees the involvement of industry. And so that's when I understood, because when I read them, they looked like part of them had been written by satellite operators. And indeed, industry had been involved in that. But it's one thing to get it right, but it's not enforceable unless it's implemented.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:43:51]:
And that happens at the national level. So you try to have the conversation with member states that, look, you are liable for these activities, but it's not, you know, a blank check to companies that they can do what they want, but you're liable. You also have the power to control that by implementing the guidelines that you have agreed on. So if you want to minimize your liability and you want your companies to behave responsibly, etc., you need to implement what you have agreed on with, with other member states in the multilateral forum. That's one conversation. But then we, we are trying to engage commercial actors because— let me give you the example of the lunar conference that we did in December of 2025. It was a lunar conference on the commercial lunar landscape. I had been to IAC, the International Astronautical Astronomical Congress in Sydney in October.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:44:53]:
And that was where I looked for, proactively looked for bilateral meetings with different companies who I knew were engaged in lunar activities. And I met a bunch of them, including US companies. And you're meeting senior officials and they're like, the UN has a space office? Okay, why should I care? The UN's doing a conference on lunar? Why would I ever go to a UN conference on space or on lunar activities? And the conversation with the US companies was, well, you are going to require a license from the Office of Space Commerce. They are going to be implementing whatever the US, whatever the UN has decided. And the US is intrinsically involved in making those guidelines and whatever, the US has a track record of doing very well in implementation and so on. And the companies had no idea. And I said, "This is your one opportunity to A, hear what is being worked on and B, have a voice in it and try to influence it." So this is just lobbying. It's not towards your national government, it's towards the UN because that's where these principles, et cetera, are being crafted.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:46:10]:
These invitations don't happen very often. The UN is not open. It's not like you can just make an appointment and show up. So I'm— we are creating those opportunities, up to you to engage with us. So it's not company by company, except to the extent that we try to get them to come and engage when we want them to. But, you know, we create broader opportunities, and we still have to follow a certain process, and we still inform the member that we are doing this. I can't, as a former industry person, I can't just come in here and railroad it all and make it how I would like it to be. You have to still work with the system, otherwise you get demarched and we don't.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:46:54]:
Need that to happen. Yeah. So I'd like to, I guess, put— there's a lot of conceptual things going on with what the, what UNISCE does and COPUS and this idea of there's the legal treaties and then there's the norms and, and so forth that's going on. Just to make it a little more concrete for our listeners, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are, kind of, and this involves the commercial part, right? This concept of megaconstellations. We know that's a, that's an important piece and especially in this growing in the accelerating space theater. What do you see in that idea that we have these large growing satellite constellations and stuff? So what role can UNOOSA and COPUOS realistically play in shaping the norms.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:47:49]:
And responsible behavior in orbit? Well, we are still uniquely positioned to act as a trusted and neutral convener of both public and private stakeholders. And I think it's that trust which is, uh, the most important. Um, we often hear that the private sector needs a voice. That's why we go to the ITU, because there we are sector members. And in UNOOSCE, in COPAs, we, we can only be observers, and that too only through our associations and so on, but we don't have a voice. I think I'm trying to, um, also based on my network and the trust that I have with the commercial sector at least those, the satellite operators who know me very well, is to make them understand that, trust me, you don't want a voice around that table. You'll go crazy if you have to work at the member state pace, which is copious, but come and engage in a smart way. Inform the member states.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:48:47]:
I'm trying to break down silos between space agencies on the one hand on the other. The satellite operators don't need the space agencies, they don't get their licenses from them. And the space agencies don't really deal with satellite operators either. By way of example, in a few countries it's different, but overall there's complete silos there. And so I'm trying to get commercial sector to realize that you need to speak on a bilateral basis with your representatives in COPUS. We have right now an expert group on space situational awareness. This is the first step towards global space traffic coordination. They need to be informed that so many countries have a national satellite operator.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:49:34]:
Think of Brazil with Claro, think of Greece with Hellasat, two examples. But so many countries have satellite operators and they have their flight dynamics experts, but they don't talk to them. And then you have diplomats thinking, oh, well, how do we do, what do we do? And then it becomes follow the loudest voice. Loudest voice, that's not right. So trust towards the commercial sector that work with us in the way that we invite you to, because we need to be smart about how we do that. But also trust on the public sector side, because the good thing about COPES is it's consensus-based. You don't— it's, which means every member state has a voice on an equal footing. So it's not that the US or China or the Russian Federation can drive their agenda.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:50:27]:
Any country, the smallest country, Maldives is one of our most recent members. Maldives could hold up the whole committee if they refuse to agree to something. Other small countries could do that. Any country can, you know, throw a spanner in the works if they want to. But the good thing about this is you have the best chances of creating mechanisms that the buy-in of everybody, and that is really, really important. You don't have that in other fora. It's not a pay-to-play organization. So COPUS brings a legitimacy through its consensus-based guidelines.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:51:04]:
It carries the political weight, even if they're not necessarily legally binding. So we can promote best practices, we can promote responsible behaviors that benefit everybody, we can create mechanisms. So one of the visions that we have for lunar sustainability Earth orbits, space traffic coordination in Earth orbit is international committees for lunar coordination, International Committee for Space Traffic Coordination, following the model that we have for GNSS for navigation. So COPES gave birth to the International Committee for GNSS, where all the operators, the experts of Beidou from China, GLONASS from Russian Federation, GPS, Galileo, and the other systems from India, from Japan, from et cetera, et cetera. They come around the table. Despite all the geopolitics we see today, that committee is still working on the interoperability and the compatibility of their different systems. And they're working on commonalities because they know that the services and applications that can be built based on an integration of those systems or some kind of interoperability of those systems is far more than individual systems. And imagine satellite navigation is your ultimate dual-use technology.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:52:29]:
So my point is we have a track record of mechanisms that can be born from this trust, the trusted forum, which is COPUS, and that can go to prioritizing operational realities to really deliver value and enhance safety and sustainability. And that's what we're hoping for lunar. That's what we're hoping for space traffic coordination and so on. So COPA has got a track record of doing what it does. It just needs to accelerate and be even more focused in a very, very challenging environment with all the division and.

Rod Pyle [00:53:05]:
Geopolitics that we see happening right now. Well, Aarti, you've given us a nice idea of what it is that you do and what UNUSA does. And I appreciate that. We should let you get back to your important work. But I do have a final question. Just let's pretend for a moment that we're having you back on the podcast in 5 or 10 years, which I'd love to do sooner, hopefully. But let's just say 5 or 10 years. And at that point, we have a probably vastly increased international presence in space, certainly in Earth orbit, but probably on the Moon as well.

Rod Pyle [00:53:40]:
If you were discussing with us what UNOOSA accomplished during that time to help bring together the international community in these efforts.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:53:51]:
What might that look like? I won't repeat the mechanisms that I have just talked about for lunar coordination and space traffic coordination, but for me, they are up and running. And we have, I mean, we can't control what is being launched up there, but at least we can control how they coordinate. Control is a strong word, but we can at least influence how they coordinate and create a pathway for them to do so to enhance safety. So that's one thing. But beyond that, I would hope that we have, I'll give you an example which is completely different. Within the UN, we are the space hub, we are the space office, but we are the only office which does not use satellite imagery and data, whereas there are 25, at least 25 other offices who are all buying, procuring satellite imagery for the same country in duplication for their individual missions and mandates. Hugely inefficient. Coming from industry and being a manager rather than a politician, I look at that and I mean, I just want to pull my hair out.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:55:06]:
So we've put a proposal in line with the UN AT process, which is going on, which is all about making the UN fit for purpose, mandate-driven, avoiding duplication, streamlining, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. We have come up with a proposal for a central procurement hub of satellite imagery for the whole system. But this is ultimately meant to be cost-effective, not just for the system, but also for member states. There are so many member states who really need actionable intelligence, high-resolution imagery and data to be able to act locally and nationally. But they're developing countries, they can't afford it, they don't have access to it, they don't know to use it. So in 5 or 10 years' time, if I come back, I want to tell you that we have done that. We are the central hub for that. We have negotiated the agreements and they're all in place with so many different actors from private sector.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:56:05]:
And we are streamlined in and effective in making sure that whoever needs it, be it the UN system, World Food Program, World Health Organization, whatever it is, or member states, The Pacific Islands, because they're facing sea level rise. What will that look like in 5, 10, 15, 20 years' time? Yeah, that they have what they need to prepare to be resilient and so on. There's probably a lot more examples, but I'll go on forever if you make.

Rod Pyle [00:56:35]:
Me, if you let me. Well, maybe another episode, because I think you have things to do and I know it's late there in Vienna, so we want to let you go. But I want to thank everyone, and especially you, Aarti, for joining us for episode 197 of This Week in Space, which we're calling Inside UNOOSA. Aarti, where can we find more information.

Aarti Holla-Maini [00:56:54]:
On your activities online and UNOOSA's? So, I mean, our website is something that we don't yet have the budget to update, but we're looking at that. I, I never send anybody to our website because I don't think it's that user-friendly, but what I would say is we're super good on social media, and I follow us. We are putting weekly updates and sharing toolkits and information of different resources that we are doing. I'd also refer you to the knowledge, the UN SPIDER knowledge portal and the Space for Water portal. But follow us on social media and.

Rod Pyle [00:57:30]:
You get a lot of information that way.

Dr. Rick Janet [00:57:33]:
Okay, Rick, same question for you. Yeah, so you.

Rod Pyle [00:57:41]:
Can find me at www.expandingfrontiers.org. All right, Tariq, where can we find.

Tariq Malik [00:57:44]:
You in the digital cosmos? Well, you can find me at space.com as always, also on the socials @tariqjmalik. The J is really important. And like Rod likes to point out, you can always find me on YouTube @spacetronplay as well. And hopefully soon in Florida for Artemis.

Rod Pyle [00:58:00]:
2, you know, weeks away, weeks away, Rod. We hope. And of course, you can always find me at PileBooks.com or at AsterMagazine.com. And remember you can drop us a line anytime at twist@twit.tv. We do welcome your comments, suggestions, and ideas, and one of us will answer each and every email. New episodes of this podcast publish every Friday on your favorite podcatchers, so make sure to subscribe, like us, and give us good reviews. We'll take whatever you got. You can also follow the TWiT Tech Podcast Network @TWiT on Twitter and on Facebook and on TWIT.TV— TWIT.TV on Instagram.

Rod Pyle [00:58:34]:
Instagram. Thanks everyone for coming together today. This has been a real treat. Aarti, thank you. Stay warm there in chilly Vienna, and. I hope we'll see you again.